Intro from Rand: Despite Mystery Guest having misgivings about contributing to SEOmoz, I was able (after months of pitiful pleading) to cajole her into one more post. This is a topic close to my heart as well, and one that doesn't deserve to be buried just because it's uncomfortable.
I am conflicted. I'm in an abusive relationship with reddit. And I keep going back, thinking I can somehow change things. I keep visiting, keep commenting, keep frantically checking my comments every hour or so to see if anyone's replied. I think if I say the magic word, somehow, things will get better. I'm addicted to it, yet I don't enjoy any of it.
I kind of hate reddit.
And yet, I keep visiting, in hopes that things will improve. But it's like pushing a bowling ball uphill with a feather. It's not happening. Reddit is not for me. It's sexist and hateful. It's becoming more and more apparent each day – from the photo montage of Russian school girls that makes the front page, to the commenters who feel that the word “cunt” is an acceptable term for a woman they dislike.
I don't submit stories. Maybe that's part of the problem. But honestly, if I did submit women-friendly stories, I don't think they'd get modded up. Several months back someone posted a photo essay about a young girl undergoing genital mutilation. Most of the commenters talked about how it wasn't that big a deal – how it's the same thing as a man getting circumsized. They called out the so-called hypocrisy of many of the members of reddit's female community (myself included) for getting upset about “female circumcision” but not male circumcision.
Needless to say, I didn't leave the conversation feeling happy. I didn't leave it feeling that I should return, either. I left it thinking that a women's voice and opinions are not welcome on reddit. It's something I've felt time and again.
But, for reasons that still escape me (I'm stubborn? I refuse to look for other sites that offer good aggregations of content? I think that all social media sites will pose the same problem?) I did return to reddit, and I encountered more of the same. Here's a lovely interaction I had, regarding an article that, most unusually, pertained to women's issues. The comments however, were not so enlightening:
She can't come out and say "In short, learn to control your emotions."
In my experience, most women hate being told their being overly emotional. My mom was 50 before she finally accepted that women are more emotional than men.
Christ, could you be more offensive? Maybe we just all had our periods that day. Yeah. That must have been it.
Okay, so maybe that wasn't the most mature response I could come up with. But my comments don't actually do anything. They either get buried, or ridiculed, or ignored. I'm not the only one this happens to – whether you express a pro-woman viewpoint, or heck – if you just are a woman you have to deal with negativity. Some female redditers even lament picking usernames that aren't gender neutral as the harassment and comments are so bad (apparently, she has thicker skin that I do, and feels that most of the users on reddit are cool. I respectfully disagree). Even attempts to open up a dialog about the sexism on reddit are met with sexist comments. Some have even admitted to avoiding comments fields on posts that could lead to a feminist discussion, because those threads are the most upsetting.
I even tried to take a cue from the guys – I figured, I can objectify men as well as they can women. And if I can't beat them, I might as well join them. So, after seeing submission after submission of some scantily clad starlet on the homepage, and reading the comments about what some redditers would hypothetically do to them should the restraining orders even get lifted, I decided to try for myself. – I responded to a posted image of Matt Damon with “I'd still hit it.” Clearly, I confused the locals. And the comments are only half of the problem.
As I noted earlier, the content isn't women friendly, either. Check out some of the quality submissions that have been voted up recently:
- Yay! A bunch of Russian girls in short dresses hugging each other. (I commented here. It didn't go over so well.)
- Clearly, this is less the article itself and more the way it's framed in the submission title. I wonder if the submitter was really close to writing: BIRD MITES CRAWL OUT OF WOMAN'S VAGINA!.
- The content itself isn't too bad on this, but it quickly turned into a “women are materialistic whores” discussion in the comment thread.
- Yes, these girls are awful. How this is at all positive and relevant is beyond me. (That didn't stop me from commenting, of course.)
- As a woman, I often wonder when the opportunity will arise for me to put on a skimpy bikini and hug some guy at what is apparently computer camp.
If this is the sort of thing that's popular, I don't think that stories that interest me are going to go over well with the rest of the reddit community. Frankly, I have neither the energy nor the thick skin to submit women-friendly stories where they aren't wanted. It's impossible to change a broken system from within the framework. It's impossible to fix a broken reddit from within reddit itself. And honestly – if the community doesn't want it, what right do I (or does anyone else have) to force enlightenment upon them?
Besides, to be fair, even if we somehow managed to clean up reddit, there would still be other sexist sites out there. Even SEOmoz, which strives to create an open, friendly community, has the occasional hiccup - whether it's a comment that could be offensive or an avatar that objectifies women. But those instances are few and far between, and often quite funny – they don't dominate the entire landscape to create a hostile environment towards women. And I'm pretty sure that, unlike reddit, if I voiced serious objection to something on this site (which I am not doing, by the way), it wouldn't be met with the hostility or harassment that I've encountered on reddit. (By the way, I want to make two things clear in citing those examples: one, is that I love Danny Dover. He's like, my favorite intern ever. Way cooler than the fat kid on Letterman. And two, while I think the photo that Rishil posted of herself is a little provocative, it's her own choice. I mean, that's what feminism is about, right? Besides that, Rishil is awesome, too, and totally changed her avatar to Dale Midkiff for a day at my request. Plus, she's newly single, so I suggest all of you send her a personal message, since she explicitly said her turns ons are WOW enthusiasts and SEOs who wear free conference t-shirts.)
Even the search engine themselves aren't infallible. A few of you might remember how, last year, I jokingly complained to Rand that a search for Vanessa's name on Yahoo! also yielded the suggested search phrase “Vanessa Fox Fishkin.” Rand mentioned it on the blog (and how I had teased him about it) and Yahoo's blog issued an apology to Rand, but not to Vanessa. I think that simple act actually spoke volumes. Essentially, Vanessa and Rand were in the same boat but only Rand received an apology. Granted, the whole thing was a joke, but still.
So what the heck can be done? If even well-meaning and women-friendly sites end up being sort of sexist, are women who use the internet just ... screwed? (See? I can do it too.) Is the internet inherently sexist? Rand asked me this today and I wasn't sure how to answer. I don't know if it's a blanket statement that I can make – clearly some of it is, and some of it isn't. If I were to look at all the sites out there, I'd probably find more anti-women material than pro-women. But that's probably true of most media. More importantly, if the web is sexist, what am I going to do about it? I'm certainly not going to stop going online. It's not like there's another internet that I can choose as opposed to this one. One solution, of course, is start visiting women-friendly sites, to spend my time and money in places where I feel I'm treated fairly.
Interestingly, Rand and I had been talking about a women's alternative to reddit a few months back – we were actually considering embarking on the project together. Of course, Lorna Sullivan beat me to it by about, oh, a year – she launched Boudica.com, a social networking site for women this week. Clearly it's stating that the time has come. And I couldn't be happier.
Lorna mentioned to me that the site wasn't necessarily feminist but rather that it was women-friendly. (I see them as one and the same, but there's such a stigma against feminism that I think a lot of people don't like to use the term. Which, if you think about it, really sucks.) Considering how overtly hostile to women other sites are, I'd say that a site that was even slightly women-friendly, or for that matter, gender-neutral, is going to land on the list of feminist websites simply by comparison.
So, it's a start. And opening up a dialogue about the issue itself is yet another way to combat sexism on the web and social media sites. As for reddit, we'll see. Maybe I'll finally throw in the towel, put down my feather, and let the bowling ball roll back down the hill. Then again, I really don't think I should let them get away with crap like this.
Phew. Heavy reading.
I can understand where you are coming from on this - you definitely make a good case that there is a lot of bad stuff on Reddit. I don't actually read a lot of the comments there so I don't have much of a context to place your views and findings in.
My biggest concern with thinking about this analytically without knowing the lay of the land is to separate two big effects:
I think what I'm essentially getting at is that there are some of your points that would probably improve reddit (or any other social media site) for everyone regardless of gender. While there are others where it is a matter of tone and preference - I actually thought the exchange about Matt Damon was funny - both from you and from the other commenter who thought you were male and then made a self-deprecating comment afterwards.
In summary, I agree with you that there is a problem, but the general offensiveness of some comments (see any thread about mental health for example) are independent of sexism per se. And I think this stems from underlying issues with both the internet and social media - the internet gives perceived anonymity and social media incentivises outrageousness. The combination is often offensive. To everyone.
I'll be interested to hear and see how Boudica.com does and I look forward to hearing whether you can successfully stay off reddit.
Wow. I seem to have written an essay. You got me thinking anyway. I want to end with a joke to lighten the tone, but I can only think of sexist ones now. Damn you! :)
I have to disagree - I think a lot of those comments are offensive and sexist. While I realize that the correct definition of sexism is unequal treatment of the sexes, I will usually only call out examples of sexism if I think they are terribly derogotary (if a comment is benign, though sexist, I usually let it slide). I think the biggest issue here is that reddit is distinctly anti-feminist - that is, completely offensive and degrading towards women in a lot of ways. And while there were plenty of examples of offensive content on the site that weren't sexist, a good number of them were. So maybe the site in general is just a rotten one, but that doesn't dispute the fact that it's rotten towards women. I'd like to think that you found reddit offensive (and not necessarily sexist) because feminism is so ingrained in your psyche that you don't see it as "women's concerns" anymore but more as "humans' concerns". Maybe that's it. But then again, I like you.
And yes, I also think that a lot of the improvements I want would improve the site for men and women. That's because feminism is awesome and makes the world a better place.
As for the Matt Damon comment, yes, I thought it was funny, too, and I included it more as an illustration that men on reddit were reasonably confused when the tables were turned on them, and that the natural assumption is to that all contributors are men.
And with regard to Vanessa, I found that situation to be interesting. I didn't really think an apology was necessary in either case, because I was, after all, kidding. But hell, if you are going to extend it to Rand, why not do the same to V? Made no sense whatsoever, unless she was somehow perceived as less-deserving of one for some reason.
Dammit. I keep trying to stop reading this thread and do some work and there you go with insightful comments again... Stop that would ya?
As I said, I don't hang out on reddit enough to know what is normal in the comments (I read hacker news, but through RSS and don't often read the comments). I think you have hit the nail on the head with:
I am really not trying to be flip when I say that I don't think all verbal abuse of women or belittling of women is necessarily sexist - often, I think it is 'just' offensive (making it no less offensive for that). In some ways I think it can be sexist (in the inequal treatment sense) to call things sexist because they are offensive when a similar comment about a man would be seen as offensive but not sexist...
Thank you. I like you too :) and I actually think we are saying roughly the same thing here but using different words to say it.
One last thing on the Vanessa Fox Fishkin thing - I may be naive and I don't actually remember the situation well enough, but I would like to think that it wasn't because they thought any less of Vanessa than they thought of Rand but rather just that they were responding to his post (while Vanessa didn't post on it as I recall). Also - Rand's post was (tongue in cheek) saying it had caused him relationship issues with you being 'in a huff' - hence directing their response to him.
I'm going to have to side with Will on this. I think the sexism that is prominent on the web is just one component of the generally cloddish--and often disgusting--immaturity and lack of consideration displayed by many, many, many denizens of the tubes.
When the default perjoratives across almost every corner of the internet consist of "ur gay" and "fagz" it's hard to argue that these people are merely sexist but otherwise reasonable.
In fact, your Matt Damon example seems to prove exactly that. You expressed that you commented there in a mildly crude fashion to "play along" with the sexist attitudes of the guys, but the resulting comments weren't sexist, they were blatantly homophobic.
The internet allows equal access for all, regardless of sexual politics. It also allows a great degree of anonymity. These powers combined create a venue where people, who might be a bit more sensitive in their daily lives, devolve into disgusting icons of sexism, homophobia, racism, and violence.
(Edit: As an example, witness Sean Maguire's derogatory sterotype laden, mildly homophobic comment below. I like Sean, he's a good guy, he sent me a t-shirt. But this is a perfect example of somebody being borderline offensive when they probably don't intend to be.)
Although it may have come across that way Scott, I was actually just acting juvenile. Not that that's any better - but I'm certainly not a homophobe.
I know it was just harmless juvenile prodding. The point is that, while your friends may know you're just joking, it's very easy for seemingly harmless remarks to paint an inaccurate and unflattering picture of your beliefs and intentions to those who are less familiar with you..
I've completely stopped reading sites like Wired and Engadget because of the way every discussion devolves into 15-year-olds (I hope they're 15, at any rate) being sexist, homophobic, racist, etc.
I'd like to grab and shake each of them and tell them that the fate of the world doesn't rest on whether you play Wii or PS3. Unfortunately, it's like every group activity among teenage boys; it has a way of quickly becoming us vs. them.
6
I've been thinking about your excellent post all day, MG. So glad you're back! Here are a few thoughts:
First, re: Rishi and the Amazing Avatar. I don't find it offensive, I find it fascinating. While I'm passably pretty (no one's turned to stone yet), I have always gotten attention because of my intellect. The idea of having your identity wrapped up in your looks is intriguing. The way that the people respond to his avatar reveals a lot about them.
My first instinct is to get a little defensive, and conclude that while it seems like many of you males like Rishi's avatar, if that young lady actually commented here, her comments would be inane and disappear in a flurry of thumbs-down.
However, immediately upon writing that I realize that I am making assumptions about women like that based on my own prejudices. Perhaps she is an attractive nuclear physicist who really, really likes Jack Daniels.
I did try to recreate the avatar myself today with a can of diet Coke while looking in the bathroom mirror, and just looked ridiculous. I am a homeschooling mom who likes the Jack Daniels Sesame Chicken appetizer at Friday's. I will never be a bombshell.
In summation: Rishi's avatar is a cultural touchstone (er, pun intended) and our responses to it tell us a lot about ourselves and our preconceived notions of sexuality. The only downside I see is that it detracts from Rishi's excellent posts and comments because it gets so much attention in and of itself. But if he's fine with that, I am too.
Re: Reddit. I must admit that I've never liked Reddit much - the format of the homepage, comments, etc. doesn't appeal to me. I actually like Digg, and while I do see offensive comments there, as already mentioned they usually get thumbed-down. I also don't mind them if they're a little offensive - it appeals to the rebellious side of me that was cultivated by growing up in an extremely conservative Christian home.
MG, I am interested in what you said about Reddit:
If the creators of Reddit have that kind of community as their goal, aren't they betraying their goal by not having a better handle on the offensive comments and submissions? Their actions (or lack thereof) reveal their intent better than anything they might say.
In other words, I think you could step away from Reddit and not feel guilty about whether it's necessary for you to try and maintain their community. Quite possibly, your idea of what Reddit should be is different from what everyone else thinks Reddit should be.
If you are truly serious about making Reddit a better place, this blog post - read by many thousands of people - is a great start. Have you thought of emailing TPTB at Reddit and sending them a link to your post? Permanant changes at Reddit will most likely have to come from the top down.
I know I use Television Without Pity as an example all the time, and part of that is because I've posted there since 2002 and I'm really familiar with how it works. It is, hands-down, the most tightly moderated internet community I've ever come across. I've been banned there a time or two for breaking the rules, for pete's sake.
Some people might find TWoP stifling, but I've seen over and over again just how necessary it is to keep a tight reign on internet forums. As Rebecca said, it's Lord of the Flies out there when people are expected to police themselves.
Someone upthread said this:
This may be true...but isn't it on the same continuum as many of the sexist comments at Reddit? Sure, it's pretty mild, but it's still a stereotype. We seldom see our own prejudices clearly even when we can see others' quite well.
Between my business and taking care of my kids, my time is limited. I decided a long time ago that my time was better spent helping where I'm really wanted and needed than in trying to push rocks uphill with feathers (great metaphor, btw). That's just what works for me.
Come back soon, MG!
Lorisa,
As far as YOU'RE concerned, you may not be a "bombshell", but after reading that comment - at the very least - you're definitely - the Bomb. That was awesome. Well stated.
I heart you Lorisa.
Right back at you, Patrick! :)
I double heart you Lorissa! <3 <3
Thank you for your lovely comment.
One day I will make you spill your drink again by confusing you with my avatar... remember that time? lol.
Lorisa! Hi! I think you make a couple of excellent points - sort of flaws in my argument that I didn't really address. As to your marketplace of ideas - you are right: in keeping reddit an open forum, there will inevitably be comments that I don't agree with, or ones I find offensive or derogatory. I obviously wouldn't want to censor any of that. My optimistic (or is it naive?) side just hopes that circumstances would be different (Scott noted something similar above - that basically, this is the flip side of the First Amendment coin. And hell, the First Amendment is one of my top 5 amendments) - that people would censor themselves. Or perhaps that it would only take one person to tell them "what you say is offensive" and that would be enough to incite change.
Interestingly, there was something on NPR recently that talked about how we had become tolerate to the point of being overly passive. That in the quest to make everyone happy, to respect everyone's ideas, we had actually stopped speaking out against injustices. That doesn't necessarily apply in this scenario (or, at least, I can't figure out if I'm fighting against that concept or perpetuating it - maybe I'm doing both?). But that's neither here nor there.
Anyway, the point is, when I see sexist crap, I become angry at the site itself - some intangible aggregate of people and contributions, rather than the individuals who participate. That's kind of interesting. Makes me feel like Don Quixote, and not exactly in a good way. I'm criticizing things in the abstract, just hoping that will be enough to change things, when really, I'm asking for a complete paradigm shift in the participants themselves. How to change that, I'm not sure. And that might not even be wanted. As you said, my concept of what reddit should be might not align with what others want.
But still, the optimist in mean speaks up (again - it might be the idiot in me - still unclear there :). Not that that will actually DO anything. But like I said earlier, maybe the discussion is enough. So maybe reddit will continue to be the way it is, because that's what its users want it to be. But at the very least, they might now know that a lot of what they're saying is perceived as being sexist by a lot of people. You have to know the rules before you break them. I'm just laying out the rules, as I see them.
p.s. - Anywho who doesn't think you are a bombshell is an idiot.
Yep, there's always going to be tension between free speech and our inherent desire for some sort of common decency. Everyone will draw the line in a different place when it comes to what's acceptable or not.
Talking about it is great, and gets us to at least consider other points of view if not actually change our minds completely.
I think it's great that you are challenging us to not be so complacent when it comes to sexism in social media - sometimes, when you spend your life online, you can become inured to it. That doesn't serve any of us very well.
@MG - thank you for the "bombshell" comment.
You may be right - after all, as Scully says in one of my favorite X-Files episodes, "Smart is sexy" :)
The internet is offensive towards EVERYONE, not just women. It's offensive to gay people. People who have kids. Jews. Blacks. Emo kids. Goths. Fat people. People who actually enjoyed the movie "Gigli." If you go onto a social news site like Digg or Reddit, you'll see sexist/machismo remarks about women, sure, but you'll also see pictures making fun of obese people, comments lamenting families who take their loud, unruly children to restaurants, jokes about black people sucking down malt liquor and fried chicken, remarks about douche bags who wear bluetooth headsets and sport popped collars, and much, much more.
But...you'll also see plenty of humanizing stuff. I visit Digg and reddit frequently, and yes, there are comments that some may find offensive and there are popular image galleries of hot women, but there are also stories about women being victimized that garner sympathetic comments. I've seen stories about abused children, and the comments are overwhelmingly "That's horrible and sick--my heart goes out to the family" while the "Babies--the other white meat" jokes get buried in an instant.
So yes, people are assholes. But they're not always assholes towards women. They're assholes towards everyone. Conversely, people can also be sensitive and sympathetic, even online. To me, the Internet isn't much worse than stuff I've heard from people in real life (Dave Naylor, I'm looking in your direction). Sure, it's like one big Lord of the Flies due to its lack of censorship and regulation, but it's not as horrifying as some people may think. Just like in any city, there are some dark, dank, scary-looking streets and alleyways, but there are also some great, safe, fun neighborhoods, too. It's up to you to decide where you want to venture, but you shouldn't feel outraged when you head into Compton and get stabbed.
That's my opinion, anyway.
The emo kids probably deserve it.
My first ever impression of the search industry was meeting Dave Naylor immediately upon arriving at the hotel for SES London.
Dave, who is both lovable and brilliant, also has a unique ability when it comes to chauvinistic language. I'm no prude, but the shit that he was saying to Rebecca did NOT make for a good first impression.
The only reason I didn't completely write him off personally was because Rebecca, whom the comments were aimed at, didn't seem to take them personally coming from Dave. My feeling was that if she knew him and wasn't offended by his comments toward her, why should I be...even though I did admittedly bristle at some of the things he was saying.
Yeah, but let's face it - they deserve it.
A lot of people have noted similar things - that the web is racist, homophobic, hateful towards obese people, etc. I'm not disputing any of that, actually. I'm just noting some pretty serious instances of sexism, which I think are important to bring to light.
You've also referenced the "fight or flight" response which a lot of people have brought up. Like I said, with regard to simply never visiting reddit again, I think I'd be doing myself a disservice (of course, maybe I'm doing that by staying - it's a bit of a Catch-22, isn't it?). As a feminist, I think I at least need to say something to blatant instances of misogyny that I see on the web on sites that, on face, appear to be non-gender-biased. The question then becomes, once I've said that, and nothing good has come from it, can I cut and run, or do I keep pushing the bowling ball uphill? And as I've said, that's not something I have an answer to yet.
Maybe it's a matter of saying what you need to say, but keeping it in the style and mood of the rest of the conversation.
That is, rather than posting "That's sexist," you could try something like, "I'm sure your mommy would be very disappointed in you if she knew you felt that way. Why don't you go upstairs and ask her?"
"Well, I'm only allowed to use the computer if I'm looking for a job, so she'd probably get mad if she knew I was on this site ..."
Unless you torch the first amendment (in this country anyway), you'll never get that bowling ball up the hill. If you, or I, or anyone else tried to go and wag a finger at every derogatory comment out there, it'd be the most futile effort ever.
My feeling is, save the lessons for people who you may have some influence with and that are smart enough to care. If the rest are happy to behave in such a way that they protray themselves as classless dicks, let 'em.
Right - and clearly I don't want to restrict anyone ... I just wish they weren't such assholes. I think you're right though - a lot of it turns out to be wasted energy. You can wish all you want, but it doesn't necessarily mean people will change. That's a big factor in all of this. I know reddit isn't going to change. But I keep going back. I'm in an abusive relationship with a friggin website.
I think the greatest proponet of behavior change is education and, perhaps more importantly, example.
All the people who most of us respect and who have changed behavior have done so via example. Gandhi, Biko, and American heros like Martin Luther King, Susan Anthony, and Fredrick Douglas all used example and education as proponets for change.
Through personal example and dignified efforts even in the severest situations, the above people made change happen.
If a behavior is deemed bad, define how it is bad, why it is bad, and provide possible solutions via example. Make it all compelling, and inspire hope.
Positive works better than negative lately (in the last couple hundred years or so).
Did you say EMO kids?
Guilty as charged. :)
Ingredient #1: Shock sells.
Just listen to your morning radio, or any news talk station.
Even the 11 o'clock local news has those shocking story teasers broadcasting while you're watching TV:
"Is the lunch your kids will eat at school tomorrow safe for them? Important information every parent needs to know - tonight at 11."
Ingredient #2: Sex Sells and not just to men.
Vanity Fair, Cosmo, Glamour, etc. - these magazines are aimed at women, and yet scantily clad women are usually on the cover.
Even the celebrity gossip press (read mostly by women) is about celebrity sex objects. Not just men (Clooney, Pitt, Damon, McConaughey) but women also (Spears, Hilton, Lohan, etc.).
While some of these celebs have talent as an actor - they are on the cover of the magazine because they are being sexually objectified (when was the last time Phylip Seymour Hoffman or Gary Oldman was on the cover of Us magazine?).
Ingredient #3: Men live (maybe even thrive) in a mild insult culture.
It is almost always meaningless, but it is a form of bonding. It could be trash talk on the court or some SEOmoz newb picking on one of the more popular members - but we all tend do it.
Hopefully somewhere during adolescence we learn that if we want to play with the cute girl next door we can no longer do the verbal equivalent of pulling her pig tails - and we find more constructive ways to bond with women. But we still do it to our buddies.
In our culture, it is one of the few universal ways for guys of any social standing to express our kinship to other men.
Combine all of the above ingredients in a beaker of Will's anonymity and you get what Reddit has become: men/boys trying to out-shock and out-insult each other when discussing sex in order to get attention.
Plus you have the fact that mass culture (TV, Movies, etc.) has (intentionally or not) alienated large segments of the 18 to 34 male demographic.
Advertisers want to know where they've gone since they've largely disappeared from the TV landscape.
They've gone to video games and the Internet.
I understand your frustrations, but I'm with Sean on this - you're choosing to go there when you'd be so well received on any of the other zillions of sites on the Internet.
I think its a noble effort that you want to be the change - but you're going to need a few more feathers for your bowling ball.
People seem to be forgetting a major aspect of the Internet.
Yes there is a place on the Internet for everyone, no, not every place is for you.
Like Rebecca says the Internet hates everyone, EVERYONE. You included.
Everyday things that I don't agree with, or don't support, happen on the Internet and I DON"T give my time to them. You shouldn't either. Find your place and help it thrive.
Basically every thing that enters the mainstream gets mucked up, and Reddit is a great example, they are owned by CondéNet, Inc. The same people that bring you Vanity Fair, Wired and other unbalanced representations of sexuality, gender, age, etc.
The same traits that allow the Internet to spawn really amazing communities also insure that those communities will die a horrible bigot filled death. RIP Reddit...What's next?
Awesome comment Rebecca . . . you are the best aspect of SEOmoz. Keep it up!
Payne
Edited: To keep heat off me, long story.
I tend to disagree. Yes the interwebz are a reflection of real life, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be shocked/disappointed/whatever by the things that go on.
To carry on your metaphor, does the poverty/squalour/civil breakdown that exists in Compton (and its spiritual neighbours in the UK and round the world) that lead to those stabbings not disturb you?
Sure, they do sometimes, but it's my choice not to go there. I didn't say people don't have a right to be disappointed, shocked, or dislike some of the things that occur on the web. What I said is that there's a lot of hatred, bigotry, and offensive material online that doesn't only pertain to women. I don't want to reiterate what I said in my original comment. A lot of things don't offend me, but some stuff still does, and when I get offended I flag material or thumb it down, or I just ignore it altogether and find a more appropriate resource.
And I didn't mean to suggest that it's only the little ladies who are the subject of the nastiness on the web. And it's great that you thumb down, flag it or move on (all things that I've done too).
I just feel that posting about it is just as valid a response and that to suggest that people have no right to be offended by stuff just because they knew it was likely to be offensive is not an argument I necessarily buy in this instance.
And now it's definitely time for bed.
I find it asinine that this has four thumbs down. We should not be shocked or disappointed by anything? I don't think this point is bad at all and I can't work out why it deserves a thrashing.
It's fine Jane - I'm from Surrey. It's kind of like Compton, only with more branches of Waitrose, footballers' wives, cricket pitches and country pubs, so I can roll with the blows.
Not like the hard streets of Essex then?
Got myself a new car and an anthem.
And with that, our blog has reached a new level of awesome...
Ha! I didn't think anything could salvage this thread, but I was mistaken! =P
I thumbed Ciarán down because I felt he took my comment out of context. Nothing personal. :)
And I guess that the other 4 work for the Compton tourist board...
;)
Jane... I gave you a thumbs down for that comment, for several reasons. First, because I don't like to be reminded that you can see who gave who a thumbs down, but I can't. Second, I get the impression that you're mostly upset because you like Ciaran. I think that SEOmoz staff have an inherent responsibility to avoid favoring certain members over others. Third, because I strongly supported Rebecca's argument, and I don't like how Ciaran claimed to disagree... but then failed to support a valid counterargument. So I was one of the people who gave him a thumbs down. You then reiterated Ciaran's non sequitur with yet another logical fallacy. I think it would be irresponsible for me to neglect my allegiance to the sacred laws of logic. Fourth, because I can imagine you finding this thumbs down and exploding with an angry outburst of curse words in your funny New Zealand accent... and that amuses me. =P
I find it somewhat amusing that we now have to justify why things get thumbs down if the person we're thumbing down is a friend of the SEOmoz staff. If you're going to call people out or become offended, you should make the feature to see who's doing the thumbs up or down public, like they do at Sphinn. Otherwise, accept that you've created a culture where it's okay for people to be anonymous cowards and that no one owes anyone else a clear reason.
Hell, the other day I was thumb'd down for waving at Darren. Clearly someone found that offensive, or maybe just seeing my name appear is offensive these days. Either way, I didn't lose sleep over it.
In the spirit of transparency, I thumb'd down one of Ciaran's comments because I wasn't a fan of the "little ladies" reference. I'm sure he made it in jest, but we're still in a thread about sexism, yes?
You know exactly why I was surprised that that comment elicited thumbs down, as I explained in my comment.
It used to have six thumbs down and now has five, so it looks like I changed someone's mind, at least, as you can retract them.
Absolutely. For the record, I absolutely hate that Sphinn forces you to give a reason for desphinning something as if we're all a bunch of kindergartners who are expected to play nice. For that reason, whenever I de-sphinn something, I list a bunch of gibberish as the reason. People can thumb down whoever they want for whatever reason they want to--I do it all the time, and that's a right I and everyone else should have. I shouldn't have to explain or justify my reasoning, especially if it's anonymous.
Sorry for rambling--I've been meaning to write a post about this (most likely on Shoemoney, since it's on the ranty side).
I never said you hadn't the right. I said I didn't understand.
I didn't imply otherwise--was just responding to/agreeing with Lisa's comment about thumbing down.
I kind of like that part. It adds an element of mystery. If I knew of everyone that thumbed me down because they thought I was an a-hole, I might not like them as much anymore. ;)
@Lisa - BTW - Even though I know Darren's gaming for thumbs down, I went back and thumbed down his "Put your hand down" comment, just because it seemed the right thing to do to offset the injustice of you gettng one for giving him a wave.
Bunch a' pigs on this site - I swear.
Sean, I too will go back and give myself a thumbs down. That's just NOT something to joke about.
But that's the thing, Jane. You don't have to understand. People can thumb things down for whatever stupid reason they want to. That's the system that you guys have created. And by calling people out for it or by asking them to validate why they did it (which you did when you called their behavior asinine), you make people fearful of participating in the site. And that's sort of anti-SEOmoz.
I couldn't agree more about the ridiculousness of Sphinn requiring people to give a reason before you desphinn something. I understand why Danny implemented it, but I don't think it works or is useful in any way.
So you ARE the anonymous female ranter over at Shoemoney! ;)
No way, you're the mystery blogger! I make my rants publicly known! ;P
Seriously, I should give up golf. To start with I am pretty bad at it. Second, I am forced to stay off the net and miss these interesting discussions.
Right my input:
I dont think its necessary to explain thumbing people down, its kind of voicing your opinion anonymously, and as Lisa rightly points out, its kind of what moz encouraged by allowing the system to exist. I know I moan when I get thumbed down, especially if I cant figure out why, and that sounds like I am contradicting myself. Unfortunately, I am.
Infact I have openly asked the same question that Jane asked when someone thumbed down an honest comment before, and I think as a result that person received many thumbs up to correct that one thumb down.
I do however try to explain when I do thumb down, but thats just me. In the end, if we play in a system, you have to play by its rules, if a reason isnt expected, like in sphinn, then one shouldnt be encouraged.
I have fallen for the trap, and I am sure I wont be the last...
But this discussion is just as important as the racism sexism debate - should a social network disallow anonymous comments, so that people are forced to reason their stance?
Regarding Darrens comment to Lisa - I wont thumb him down, because it would be hypocritical to do it - IMHO - I explained to her on twitter why I didnt, because I knew their relationship - however, people who DIDNT, and still thumbed it up or didnt react, well, they should really.
edit for typos. Seriously, I cant spell.
Aww... look at you two... playing nice. How cute! C'mon, Jane... get in here. Everybody... group hug! [Except for YOU, Rishil. Take a hike. Sean... stop grabbing my ass.]
I thumb'd you down because I found your comment condescending to women and because you annoy me on a personal level.
:)
What's the point of the apostrophe in "thumb'd"? Wouldn't it be easier to just type the "e" instead? I think your contraction is stupid, and normally I would thumb it down, but I don't want to risk losing my pizza privileges in about 15 minutes. So... yeah... thumbs UP for you. P.S. Don't forget: extra cheese, no onions, no cilantro.
Re-reading some of the comments, I'm struck by a general concern I often have about society. We all have a tendency to rush to defend the status quo, especially if we're a part of it. This is human nature and a natural part of the complexity of modern life and getting wrapped up in our own day-to-day tasks and worries. We often don't have the time or energy to think about sexism, racism, global warming, New Orleans, Darfur, Myanmar, etc. In fairness, if we did think about all of that all the time, we'd go crazy.
The problem is that, as much as the internet is an amazing vehicle for expanding our worldview and seeing things in a broader light, global communications also has a flipside. Now more than ever, we're able to find and talk to people who think exactly like us, and that has also led to isolation and things like the rise in hate group activity. To a lesser extent, we see it on places like the political blogs or even Wired and Engadget. We all cling to our groups and points of view, and want to be surrounded by people who think the same way. Unfortunately, camraderie has a way of devolving into mob mentality.
Especially as we get older, I think it's absolutely critical that we challenge our habits and preconceptions, no matter how ingrained they are. Just because something has been around our whole lives or we take it for granted, doesn't mean it's right or desirable. We have to be willing to take a critical look at ourselves.
You know what, Pete, I think you might be right.
What he said.
Of course, that's not to say I don't do it, too. Even now, I'm thinking "I really should be doing client work and not commenting on this post" :)
What he said again. I'm going to stop doing that now.
@Mystery Guest... I have nothing but respect for you. You are intelligent, you stand up for what you believe in, and you're an amazing writer. I can see that you've spent a great deal of time and thought on this blog entry and the comments that followed, and it is obvious that you're passionate about this issue. However, out of the 100+ comments that I've read, I really don't see a lot of genuineness (that word reminds me of Guinness... mmmm... beeeeer...) coming from people, and that's a shame. I see a whole lot of hypocrisy, judgment, ignorance, and bullshit. Buuuut... that's pretty much what I've come to expect from the human race. I personally believe in being completely honest whenever possible (hence my 140 thumbs down in under 2 months), and if no one else has the balls to speak up... then I will. After all, isn't that why you posted this in the first place? To get feedback? At least that's what I got from these remarks from Rand and you: This is a topic close to my heart as well, and one that doesn't deserve to be buried just because it's uncomfortable. So, it's a start. And opening up a dialogue about the issue itself is yet another way to combat sexism on the web and social media sites. So here we go... First of all, I hear a lot of people talking about the anonymity of the internet and how it makes all the wimps feel tough... and how people say things online that they would never say in person... etc. etc. etc. But what bothers me much more than that... is online communities where everyone's identity is visible... and it makes everyone afraid to be themselves. This post is a great example. Let's face it... everyone is sexist to some degree... but you'd never know it by reading the comments on this blog. No... suddenly every single person on this whole site is a feminist. Why? Because they're afraid. They're afraid of offending people (namely, you and Rand), so they just walk the safe route. I don't believe in that. So yeah... here's my honest opinion. When I first started reading your post and opening the links to Reddit comments, I was shocked. Not by how offensive they were... but by how NOT offensive they were. I mean... after all the anticipation and build-up, I was expecting much worse. Some of those links opened up pages that I had to reread like 4 times before I could imagine it being offensive. Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that the comments on Reddit are excusable. What I'm saying is... out of all the sexist shit that goes on in this world... you're focused on THAT? I mean... girls in other countries are being forced to undergo genital mutilation, and your biggest concern is that you don't have a women-friendly site to talk about it on? There are countries where it is acceptable for a man to KILL his wife under certain conditions! Shouldn't that be a priority issue? What about the Grand Theft Auto video games, where you can kill prostitutes and steal their money? I think the main reason why your post rubbed me the wrong way is because it seems counterproductive. What was the purpose of writing the post? Is your goal to raise awareness? To change the people who use Reddit? To change the World? Or did you just want to vent some frustration (which I certainly do all the time). To tell you the truth... out of everything I've read today... I found your blog post to be the most offensive. And not offensive to me--offensive to WOMEN. (Settle down, people! You'll get your chance to thumbs me down in just a sec. Be patient.) Now THAT is a ballsy statement. But it's honest. I honestly feel that this post is degrading towards women. Here's my reasoning: 1.) You're suggesting that women are different and have special needs. You portray women as helpless. 2.) You're the only one who said the words, "women are materialistic whores." In fact, out of this whole thread and the one that link went to... you're the only one who called women whores. I know it was to make a point, but I feel that you exaggerated it so much that I dismissed it as sensationalism. 3.) You ignored intent. You focused so narrowly on the content of your examples, that you've actually weakened your argument. An example of this was your second bullet point, where you suggest the article was framed in a way that is sexist or that objectifies women. But after I actually read the article, I realized that this part of the title: "They were coming out of her ears, her nose, some other places" was actually an exact quote, made by the victim's DAUGHTER and reported by a female journalist. Furthermore... no one ever made a reference to the victim's vagina--not in the article and not on Reddit. Only YOU did. Do you see what I'm saying? If you are going to tell me that sexism is a problem on Reddit, then don't give me examples that I can pick apart so easily. The reason is... even if you have a valid overall point (e.g. "sexism is a problem"), all it takes is one false argument to shut people off from everything else you have to say. (Trust me... I do this all the time. I can brainstorm the greatest SEO ideas in the World, but when I pitch my ideas to people, I usually preface it with an abundance of insults, so they stop listening.) Anyway... since I definitely took a different approach to responding to your blog post, I should probably expect a fair share of presumptions to be made about me, so I will explain my personal views on "how to treat a woman" so that everyone is clear on where I stand. I probably say and do a lot of things that could be considered sexist. Actually, Mystery Guest... by your standards, I'm probably VERY sexist. But believe it or not, I don't think I'm sexist at all. I don't believe that sexism or racism or any other forms of discrimination can be analyzed without first looking at intent. In other words... "This person said something that offended me, but did they INTEND for it to be offensive?" Here's an example... Christ, could you be more offensive? Maybe we just all had our periods that day. Yeah. That must have been it. Now I wonder... how many Christians would read something like that and immediately be offended before getting past the first word? There's gotta be at least a few. I, for one, didn't think your response was appropriate. If anything, I think you did a fine job of supporting that guy's claim. So the only thing I could possibly be offended by is your choice to take the Lord's name in vain. But I'm not offended. You didn't intend to offend me, so I ignore it and move on. So is it sexist to say something like this? In my opinion... no. I said it as a joke, and I said it to a woman whom I would do anything for. She understood my intent, and she wasn't offended. (Well... not by me directly, anyway. She WAS a bit disturbed that the comment got 9 thumbs up, while her comment above it got 3 thumbs up and a thumbs down? Yikes.) What I'm saying is... I know that I don't have any ill intent towards women, so I'm not worried about how offensive my comments COULD be. It's all about intent. Anyway... I will end on this: I was debating about whether or not I should comment on this post in my usual "brutally honest" fashion. I was hesitant at first (get away from me, common sense!), because... you know... telling a feminist that she's sexist against women is probably not going to go over too well? But then I realized that if I DIDN'T respond honestly, I would be treating you differently, just because you're a woman. So in the name of gender equality... I commented. =P
@DarrenSlatten Beautifully argued . . . a bit over the top in my opinion but you stated your point with conviction and reason.
Sorry man but I gave you a thumbs up.
:-)
Brent
@DarrenSlatten Beautifully argued . . . a bit over the top in my opinion but you stated your point with conviction and reason. Brent... I'm just curious... what parts made it "over the top"? Specific sections, or just the whole thing overall?
Darren, even if I don't always agree with you, I really appreciate your use of dialectic as a means of finding truth.
This:
...is a great point, and one that I thought of too. The only reason I ended up not mentioning it is because I began to think of the connection between online behavior and real-life behavior.
While saying degrading things about women at a social media site is certainly nowhere near as bad as say, assaulting one in real life, one can lead to the other.
And, since people's perceptions are often shaped by what they read, the overall effects of online sexism could be that society stops being shocked and upset by true social injustices, and does nothing to stop them.
So I gave MG a pass on that point. But I liked hearing what you had to say.
Lorisa, I also thought of that connection. It's what led to the GTA reference. So I definitely agree that there's a relationship there, but again... if we're going to tackle an issue like this, I don't consider "changing Reddit users" a top priority. Believe it or not... the worst acts against women are happening in places that don't have internet access. I personally feel that focusing on something like Reddit is actually disrespectful to the women who suffer through the "real" stuff.
Yes, I agree with you. I was thinking of the internet as a whole and not just Reddit when it came to thoughts and words influencing actions.
Re: skipping out on us to go hang at genuis forums. Please don't go! There, you'd just be one of many. Here, you're our own personal pet genuis :)
Wow, that was intense.
Every single comment I make on Digg gets a pile of buries and insults. And I am a guy.
The comments you linked to didn't show as much sexism as I expected after reading your bog post. Nobody in those posts refuted your point(s) on the basis you were a woman. I did find some carppy jokes tho.
There was also what seemed like a touch of snarkiness in the tone of a few of *your* comments. If confused by some random YTM teen with a chip on his shoulder, this could also bring negative karma on the comments, and possibly even the commenter. And if the kid is trying really hard to be funny, he'll probably shoot off at the mouth.
I am in no way disagreeing that sexism is rampant in the world and amplified on the anonymous web, but I think when you are almost looking for it, you find it more. Sometimes you even read between the lines to find it.
Honestly, sexism and racism are outdated and it continues to fade, like all bad ideas. Just don't get caught up in it, and don't worry about it. An expression of some 14 year old boy's view of a 3rd world country's culture, on a news aggregating social website, shouldn't be anything to lose sleep over.
So in short, I thumbed up Darren's reply. I'm expecting a bunch of thumbdown's for this reply tho...
Darren,
Two things - First - I thumbed up your comment for the sheer amount of time you invested in writing it, coupled with the fact that I thought you had some very good arguments and you presented them in a manner that didn't attack MG personally. Stewie would be proud.
Where I disagree is with your suggestion that the majority of comments you read were somehow disingenuous. That is my opinion.
Personally, I saw a great deal of genuineness. I know my comments were genuine, I felt the same about comments from Rebecca, Scott, Brent, Vinny, Kimber, Lorisa, Mert, Pat, Dr. Pete and several others. I'm only mentioning some of those that took positions of counter argument. There are obviously others that I missed. Conversely, it is only logical to expect that a fair number of people would agree with MG and therefore support her argument. Those people were also genuine.
My point being - I think this was a fair, balanced, thoughtful, respectful and honest thread. Maybe not edgy enough for your taste though; or mine for that matter.
Edited for typical spelling errors.
Sean, I'm not trying to say that anyone here is lying. What I'm saying is that a lot of people are being much more cautious than they would if we were talking about anything else. If this is such an important issue, then why can't we discuss it openly and realistically? We're not going to resolve the issue by pretending we're all offended. You want specific examples? How about Rishil being thrown in the spotlight and feeling pressured to reconsider his avatar that he's been using for months? How about Danny being thrown in the spotlight and suddenly feeling the need to apologize and slap a disclaimer on his comment from 2 weeks ago? And yes, I see some comments here and there from you, Brent, Rebecca, etc. that take a chance... and what do you know... most of them got thumbs down. Wow. What a surprise. That sends a clear message to all the people who were considering whether or not they should speak their mind. Anyone can come on here and say "I think sexism is bad." That's obvious. That's a given. 100 people talking about how bad sexism is... doesn't stop sexism. Having those 100 people congregate in a room that stifles counterarguments... is meaningless. I don't think sexism on social networks is a top priority. I don't think it is an important issue. I can think of a hundred better ways to improve our world. I think everyone who's coming in here and pretending to give a shit about something like this is essentially spitting in the faces of women that have much bigger problems. So are the comments genuine? Sure they are. I have no doubt that everyone here THINKS they're standing up for what's right. But convincing yourself that you're a good person doesn't make you a good person. Personally... I think most people here are putting themselves first. P.S. Does anyone know of any good websites that cater to geniuses? Because I'm really tired of reading comments left by people of average intelligence. I don't think I should have to tolerate the misguided opinions of stupid people anymore. It's not right.
I didn't say that you said people were lying. I simply disagreed with one point and I explained why.
You implied that very few were genuine by saying "...out of the 100+ comments that I've read, I really don't see a lot of genuineness..."
You added,
"...if no one else has the balls to speak up...".
As if you are the only person here speaking up. I felt that a bunch of people spoke up.
That's about it.
I felt that a bunch of people spoke up. A bunch of people spoke up, but no one really said anything.
Darren - people can disagree with you and not be doing it in order to appear righteous (as Sean rightly points out) and pointing out that there are more serious issues doesn't negate the essential validity of MG's argument. If it did we'd all end up not speaking up about anything as there's always something worse ("I'm not donating to the Darfur fund, it's nowhere near as bad as what 's happening in...")
Howard Stern isn't afraid to say what he thinks; that doesn't mean that what he says has any value - in fact it's almost exactly the opposite.
Forthrightness can easily be confused for insight. It's a mistake that people make over here in the UK as much as in the US (or anywhere else), as evidenced by the pride that many stereotypical Yorkshiremen take from the fact that they'll "call a spade a f**kin' shovel".
Personally I dont see what's so bad about calling it a spade.
...people can disagree with you and not be doing it in order to appear righteous... So you're saying I'm not the devil all the time? ...pointing out that there are more serious issues doesn't negate the essential validity of MG's argument. I never tried to negate MG's argument. She said Reddit is sexist. I said there are bigger issues to worry about. If it did we'd all end up not speaking up about anything as there's always something worse... I'm not saying that we should only address the worst issue at any given time. Your statement sounds reasonable, but you've used an extreme case to counter an argument I'm not even engaged in. Howard Stern isn't afraid to say what he thinks; that doesn't mean that what he says has any value - in fact it's almost exactly the opposite. Again... you're using a specific example to support a general argument. I'll rephrase the argument you've just made, in order to highlight the logical fallacy: 1.) Howard Stern says what he thinks. 2.) Howard Stern usually doesn't say anything of value. 3.) People who say what they think usually don't say anything of value. If you are simply trying to insinuate that what I say doesn't have value, then by all means... feel free to state your point clearly. Forthrightness can easily be confused for insight. It's a mistake that people make over here in the UK as much as in the US (or anywhere else), as evidenced by the pride that many stereotypical Yorkshiremen take from the fact that they'll "call a spade a f**kin' shovel". Personally I dont see what's so bad about calling it a spade. I have no idea what you're getting at. For a brief moment there, I thought you were going to express an argument of some kind. But then you wrote me a poem instead? Ciaran... honestly, I have nothing personal against you or anyone else. The problem I have with people in general is that they are too scared to think for themselves. Nobody wants to be singled out, so they begin to change themselves in order to fit in. I don't do that. I would rather be true to myself, even if it means I offend everyone else.
I'm not sure Daren is adding anything more to this discussion. Seems like he's trying very hard to no apparent end. The discussion is now about how he doesn't change himself blah blah blah. It's no longer about the article or any related issues.
He made some great points in his previous posts but it now seems that he's just out to prove how he's better than the rest of society. That always gets tired really quickly. It's been done too many times by too many people. This was an interesting read while it lasted.
nicknick... 1.) Pointing out that I'm not adding anything to the discussion... adds nothing to the discussion. 2.) My comments are relevant to their parent content. My comment on the original article can be found by scrolling upwards and locating the full-sized, 80px X 80px version of my avatar that is left-aligned with the edge of the white background. All other comments I've made are relevant to the preceding comments I responded to. In contrast, your comment is indented, suggesting that it is a response to Ciaran or myself, when in fact it is entirely irrelevant to anything mentioned previously. 3.) As tiring as it may be for you to acknowledge your inferiority, I assure you it is much more tiring for me to constantly explain your inferiority to you in terms you understand.
Very well written Darren. I also gave you a thumbs up for the honesty and very well argued comments. I know I've had a couple of comments deleted from SEOmoz and since that time I lost both a bit of respect for the site and am slightly more cautious with what I write. So you do make a valid point. Once again, very well written.
@nicknick - seriously?? I have never had an SEOmoz comment removed and I speak my mind 100% of the time on here. I didn't know that SEOmoz regulated comments. Interesting.
Rebecca, Jane, Rand can you confirm this actually happens on SEOmoz? And is there a set of rules the moz posts somewhere?
Interesting!
Brent D. Payne
Brent,
It does happen occasionally, usually for language we consider blatantly offensive (and I'm not talking about swearing) or completely off topic and objectionable.
That said, there have been times where comments have been removed and the grounds for the removal were arguable.
I think all sites should moderate to some degree. Mine wasn't removed for offensive language. It was a touchy environmental subject and I think Rand and Scott didn't want the conversation steering off course into an argument.
I usually like people to speak their mind but in this case things were removed. That's life in any case and I don't hold it against anyone at SEOmoz.It is just one of those things that leaves a bit of a bad taste in your mouth but not enough to stop drinking. I am however more reserved now than I would otherwise be.
Overall I think that SEOmoz is great and I come here daily and maintain my Pro membership so that should speak volumes.
I have never personally removed a comment (except by request of the commenter) or advocated for the removal of a comment. Including yours, NickNick.
oh. i didn't know who removed it. I don't work there. I thought it was you. Maybe it was Rand. In either case someone removed it but that's in the past. Sorry for the mixup. Didn't mean to blame you personally.
I only flat out delete comments that are either spam, accidental dupes, or that are exceptionally inappopropriate (and, if I recall, I've deleted exactly 1 comment that was deemed inappropriate in the 2 1/2 years I've worked here). Otherwise, I let it be or I'll edit the comment, in which case you can see the "edited by rebecca" stamp on it and I offer an explanation why.
I come from an extremely pro-women environment. My old man left me with 3 older sisters and an extreme feminist mother when I was 11. I constantly cringe at things that are blatently sexist and posted left, right and centre (I'm an Aussie, that is the correct spelling, dammit!) online.
The way I see it is firstly the extremely obvious reason; Guys dont need to care what people think of them online because they're anonymous. For the most part guys are a little wussy, its far more likely to have a blue (Aussie for a 'fight') with somebody over the keyboard than in person. Same goes for talking to, and about, women.
The other thing that has become far more apparent to me is that women these days appear to be more accepting of derogatory comments, porn and other generally sexist material. I think we have the internet to blame for this as it has brought a lot of, usually unseen, material to naive and, somewhat bewildered, eyes. It makes people think that what they are seeing is an acceptable post, article, blog, etc.
I dont use reddit and a lot of other sites because I am a fairly emotional guy. I dont like seeing people being hurt or reading about things that would generally leave me feeling uneasy or uncomfortable. Maybe that makes me a bit of a wuss but if I dont go there, I cant get tempted. Why not spend my time where the environment is more of a positive nature, like here where the only thing that makes me uncomfortable is my 33% score on the SEOQuiz (omg... I was going to keep that to myself).
I'll give you the hot tip, you're not going to change anything. I'm not going to change anything. But what you can do is refuse to be tempted by something that may leave you feeling a little on edge or negative in some way. Life has enough challenges already, why spend your spare time being further challenged in an unnecesary and non-fulfilling environment? Ignore it and it will go away.
Great post btw. I enjoyed it. Its nice to read something that I understand. :)
I internally penalize ignorant comments like Google does spam sites.
Anonymity is definitely the major problem here . . . it’s not just sexism on Reddit, it’s intolerance, hatred, ignorance, and every other type of abusive communication on any forum, blog, or general response area where someone can create any meaningless identity.
I just had a discussion about this with my wife last night. A girl drowned to death in the Potomac River and the Washington Post ran a story about it because her father was a prominent boat builder, and the person who pulled her out was famous. My wife said all the commentary was terrible and I agree, but my point is that none of the people making these comments anonymously would make the same comments in person. This case just happens to be another example of sexism (in my opinion sexism in a sub-category of general abuse), but the enabling factor is the anonymity.
With regard to MG’s personal involvement with Reddit (and everyone else’s choice to read anything), you can choose to OR NOT TO read anything in the same way that you can choose what to eat and drink.
I know I’m never going to get rid of the ignorance, and I should probably not get worked up about this kind of stuff, but it makes me feel pretty good to know that I have enough respect for myself and what I choose to share publicly, to put my name on my comments.
Here's the particularly insensitive comments my wife read.
Sorry!
https://www.startribune.com/entertainment/tv/19628054.html
Edit the link - doesnt work :(
that is so unfair! I am a he and no _ I am not single and nope I am not nice and no I am not objectifying women - except this was the one pic I know explains my love for JD and the fairer sex.
Call that sexist, maybe. Offensive - dunno.
Right who votes I get rid of the avatar?
BTW the next FLIRTY PM I get will get their site hacked by SEO's - I will simply put a job post on getafreelancer for that job. You have been WARNED :P
Rishi,
Never change your avatar. ;-)
Payne
Wow, I didn't know SEO's were so hot... would you mind if I stare whilst you optimise my XML sitemap... I mean... What!? You're not a woman!? Oh God - What the hell is this place!?
enough pointless attempt at comedy.
I've actually come to the conclusion that Rishil's avatar is ironic. It's a funny little reminder in marketing the power of a good complexion and the implied extended benefits of buying a product.
Either buy X and you can be younger and more beautiful woman, or buy this and you can meet young and beautiful women.
Rishil's avatar serves as a constant reminder that much of core marketing is about playing on base emotional motivators. Plus it nets him more thumbs!
more thumbs and more attention overall
However, that attention would be in vein if he did not back it up with intelligence. The same is true for beautiful women. They get the attention . . . now what do they do with that attention once they have it? My point is that looks don't make the woman the same qualities that men have make the woman: intelligence, drive, ethics, etc.
And BTW, a good looking man gets attention too.
Brent D. Payne
Aww you called me intelligent!
Sex sells! doesn't matter what niche or industry or in
You are so friggin adorable when you get all mad about people flirting with you.
My mother-in-law, what a man..
Sorry, wrong site.
Seriously though, I think that this is an utterly valid piece and one I tend to agree with. I have to say that I don't hang around reddit all that much (or any of the major news aggregators) for reasons very similar to the ones you raise.
I tend to think that Will makes some very valid points: that the anonymity of the web makes it much easier for people to mouth off in a way they never would do in a 'real' world situation (indeed this was the subject of one of my very first YOUmoz posts). He's also right that social media awards outrageousness.
I think that there are two other underlying issues, one of which I raised in my question to Rand recently. Whilst I don't in any way think it is solely an American issue, there is a tendency in the US to reward he who shouts loudest (although it's not always a he). This feeds into the issues above, and the one I'll detail in a moment, to make matters worse.
Finally, I think that we're in many ways seeing the results of what happens when, as Jesus didn't say, the geek inherit the earth. Just think - all those little nerds who got bullied at school because they spent more time on computers than playing football; who got rejected by all the pretty girls when they asked them to the prom; who went through college like the characters in The Big Bang Theory (only without the sense of humour).
All of a sudden they find a place (or places) where they're the norm, not the freaks. Where they can do & say what they want (without fear that their Mum will hear them). It's not really that surprising that they're running riot is it?
EDIT - something I forgot to say. I also agree that it's terrible the negative associations the word feminism now has. So much so I recently thought about buying a t-shirt which just read 'Feminist'.
Thank God someone finally spoke up!!!
Your post clearly points out the root of this problem - WOMEN!!!!
Not only that, it does it in the first two paragraphs:
All this time you could have been basking in the love, glory and fame presented to you by the SEOmoz community, sharing your thoughts with familiar people that have demonstrated nothing but love and admiration for your writing and contributions. (except factpile of course).
You even have your beloved fiance' practically begging on his knees for your reconsideration. Have you ever seen Rand beg anyone for anything? I haven't.
Your response: *crickets chirp*
Nothing, Nada, Zero, Zip! Why? Because you want what you don't and clearly can't have, instead of that which is open and welcoming!
This is why we men have taken the only alternative course, other than a slow, painful, miserable existence. We went Caveman on you! It's a defense mechanism.
ARGGGGHHHHH! Grunt. *Goes back to cave"
grrrr
who thumbs downed my grrrr? i accidently replied when i was supposed to be posting new, so i edited it and vented my frustration on my own idiocy :)
who thumbs downed my grrrr? i accidently replied when i was supposed to be posting new, so i edited it and vented my frustration on my own idiocy :) Hi, Gronk. I gave you that thumbs down. I didn't feel that it added anything to the thread. I also thumbed down your next two comments. You stated that the main problem with Reddit is that most of its users are geeks. I don't think that's a valid argument at all. Furthermore, I don't think it makes any sense for you to show support for one group (women) by stereotyping and being offensive to another group (geeks). You continue your profiling in your second comment, which claims that a high percentage of Reddit users are probably quite young and immature. Not only do I disagree with you, but I also don't think you should be throwing around random statistics that you've made up off the top of your head. So there you have it. The reasoning behind why I gave you 3 thumbs down. Cheers.
ah ok so you thumbs down completely unrelated replies because you didnt agree with another one. nice work champ. im assuming my comments hit close to home with you. :D
ah ok so you thumbs down completely unrelated replies because you didnt agree with another one. nice work champ. im assuming my comments hit close to home with you. :D I gave you 3 thumbs down, and the explanation for each one is clearly listed in my comment. In fact, there is a paragraph dedicated to each thumbs down. As for your comments hitting close to home... I admit that I am a young, immature geek who watches porn. But that doesn't make your comments any less stupid.
I have to say that I seriously disagree with Brent & Sean on this. What Geraldine's talking about isn't just "Woah, she's hot". It's nasty, bile filled filth. Anyone remember Kathy Sierra (has she ever started blogging again)?
The argument that women who don't appreciate this sort of thing are just humourless is as old & tired as the men who tend to spout it (sorry chaps).
EDIT: I wanted to come back & edit this as I'm worried that it may appear too harsh to Brent & Sean, two people I like & respect. I just feel that there is a danger of lumping in what can be defined as harmless (on the whole) comments, and the more serious issue of how many women are trated online (and in the real world)
Ciaran - extremely good example. It was a shame that Kathy was victimised the way she was, and it was extremely sexist bullying - no amount of convincing would make that harmless.
ciaran the link you post to is way too long for me to read.
I will state this . . . I am dead against sexual harrassment. My ex-wife dealt with this sort of thing at her place of employment (some may know where she works but I won't repeat it here) and it was outrageous. She wasn't offended by it though so . . . her choice.
I am also dead against any type of abusive behaviour towards women. If a woman is in any way attacked . . . it should be addressed appropriately. Making comments in a social setting (whether online, at a bar, at an SEOmoz party, on twitter where the people are choosing to follow you, on MySpace where people are choosing to be your friend, or on Reddit, Digg, or other social media sites where people are choosing to interact, etc.) though is wildly different. It's about choice. If people choose to interact in a community then they also have to deal with that community.
A blogger that gets attack for her post/comments is different than someone that is interacting in a community that is all about commenting about the news, pictures, or other information online. That being said some criticism will occur when freedom of expression is made because another person has the same right. It's when the rebuttal infringes on someones personal freedoms that the line is drawn. When one's personal safety, wellbeing, etc. is infringed (or possibly to a lesser extent, I'm no lawyer) that things have gone entirely too far.
It sounds like Reddit is a sleeze bar in the rough neighborhood. Go to a different bar . . . or don't go to bars at all and attend a local church to discuss the news of the day.
Again . . . it's about choice. If you choose to expose yourself it's your fault . . . otherwise it's not.
Brent D. Payne
I totally agree with Ciaran. A colleague of Rand's in the community always gives me a kiss when he sees me, and if I ever start teasing him about anything, he always cracks a joke to the effect of how I'm "hot, so he'll let that one slide".
Technically, is that sexist? Maybe. But I'm totally cool with that. Those aren't the issues I'm talking about. I'm talking about people who are making lewd comments about the female anatomy in public forums, and who think that rape and incest towards women are great humorous topics.
Can you see the difference there?
Exactly - and I'd probably make exactly the same sort of comments when I (infrequently) see you, were it not for the fact that you're so totally unattractive.
*Wonders if this is one of those occasions when humour simply won't translate online*
It's cool. I'm not your type. That's fine. I accept that.
(Sniffle)
Sorry, it's just the way it is.
Actually, who am I kidding - run away to London with me - it rains almost as much as it does in Seattle. I could even grow a beard (actually, no I couldn't - it's a serious failing of mine).
No beard? Then no broad. Sorry, babe.
Ho hum. Back to the drawing board. Rand isn't fussed about beards is he?
Rand???
Absolutely agree and completely understand. If it is to that level then we have a completely different scenario going on. Why? Because if I was at a bar and someone was laughing about a rape that recently occured I'd find a way to discover their personal information and report them to the authorities because . . . they have a higher propensity to carry out the action themselves or may be a good confidential informant to the authorities on other crimes.
BTW, if everyone in the bar was talking about how cool rape was . . . I'd find a different bar and let the authorities know of the situation.
Brent D. Payne
And that's why we keep you around, Brent. Cause you're cool like that.
I totally agree that rape and derogatory remarks are uncool and should have serious serious responses. However - linking my innocent avatar to those kind of comments is hardly fair.
Brent you wouldnt walk away from me if I was wearing that on a tshirt would you?
@rishil wearing what on a t-shirt? I missed something because . . . well I had to work today and missed some of the conversation either on twitter or here in the comments. ;-)
P.S. I called out my 100th mozPoint a few months ago and will now do a self-shout stating . . . hooyah my 1,000 mozPoint!! Yeah!! ;-)
Note: Now I'll be thumbed down and I'll no longer have 1,000 mozPoints.
Brent D. Payne
@Ciaran - No offense taken at all - and I can assure you that I intend neither offense nor disrespect in my comments toward Geraldine. In fact, quite the opposite.
Here Geraldine has submitted yet another valuable and insightful post on a topic that has stirred a very lively debate. Personally, (and I've said this before), I have no problem with people agreeing or disagreeing in as colorful a manner as they wish, so long as they have no intent to personally attack and harm the target of their comment. (Note: My recent back and forth banter with Darren Slatten has been largely a ruse. For others that have been the target of his "direct" comments, I can assure you he is a sheep in wolf's clothing. I have proof.) :)
To be candid, I was surprised to see a preemptive note regaridng this post with a "Let's ask the community" question posed by Rand. As many have stated, Geraldine can hold her own ground. The thing about published words as we all know, is that like it or not, you are throwing yourself out there and are subject to all manner of feedback - positive or negative.
As to your point about nasty, bile filled filth, I can absolutely understand and agree with where you're coming from. I find all manner of prejudice, hate, bigotry, etc., repulsive. You'll note that my comments focused on why MG would be "addicted" to a site she finds repulsive, as well as what I perceived as bias for calling out the boys (I won't use the word "men"), that spout innuendo filled comments on a series of pictures, without making mention of what I felt were inappropriately dressed (for their age), girls. That's just my opinion.
That said, your point further solidifies my stance that "you find what you're looking for". I would no sooner visit those articles and comment threads on Reddit than I would attend a KKK convention. I'm perplexed why MG would consistently go back to that "abusive relationship", as she stated - going so far as to join the fray with comments like - "I'd still hit it".
If I were to go introspective for a moment, I would suspect that it has to do with her internal goodness and desire to see a wrong righted. I guess being more of a cynic and realist, (those people will never change), I avoid the conversation altogether.
With that - Geraldine - thank you for a thoughtful and honest post.
P.S. Ciaran - The respect is mutual. Thanks.
Ciaran - I don't think she's "officially" blogging again, but she's been fairly active on Twitter recently. I was glad to get back even 140 characters worth of wisdom from her.
I've not used reddit so i can't really comment on that, but I have to say having read your post I don't think I'll bother.
I tend to treat sites in the same way that I would treat a restaurant, bar or cafe offline.
If I meet people who I can relate to I stick around, if not then I just leave them to it. That's why I don't really spend any time on Digg (not that I've ever been on the receiving end of any sexist comments there - although I'm fairly certain it does go on). I just don't really relate to the people there so as far as I'm concerned they're welcome to it.
I think it's important to find an online community you feel happy in, and would urge you strongly to keep looking for something else - or even set something up like you suggested - I'd definitely be in :)
It will be no shock to anyone that I respectfully disagree with your post. There may eventually be people here that link to reasons why I could most definitely be seen as sexist, degrading to women, etc.
The truth of the matter is that I highly respect a woman's intelligence, drive, opinion, and . . . good looks. If I see a 'hot' picture of a woman I'll compliment her on it. But I'll also give props to a woman's thought provoking comment, business idea, political thoughts, accomplishments, etc.
I feel, Geraldine, that you are simply a bit more sensitive in this regard than the general public and thus you notice more offensive material more easily. There is nothing wrong with being more sensitive but you need to understand that you need to take action to socially deal with this sensitivity (just as I need to take action to deal with my overly intense tone, sexuality, etc.--which with some well known failures to do so aside, I attempt to accomplish).
I feel your idea to start a social media site is a perfect example of your intelligence and drive. I feel it is a testament to your intelligence and drive as a person.
The reality is that the 'problem' you speak of is well beyond Reddit, social media sites, or even the internet. It is EVERYWHERE! Why is it more socially acceptable to have two hot women kissing in public than two hot guys? Why does most marketing include attractive women? Why does a presidential nominee use her sex as a platform versus running completely on the merits of her contribution? Why is there preferential treatment by the government towards woman owned companies? Why do women get preferential treatment when it comes to child custody battles?
In the 30 minutes I spent with you I would not have viewed you as someone that is hypersensitive to this subject. We even had three private conversations that would lead me to believe you would be the opposite. (Which I never share private conversations publicly, btw.)
In a nut shell . . . I highly respect your intelligence, drive, sense of humor (in person anyway, haven't interacted with you much online), and business accumen. I . . . and here it comes . . . also feel you are an attractive woman. Is it sexist for me to say that? I genuinely feel it is a compliment. I also feel that Matt Damon is a good looking guy. Are both of you hot? Depends on what you are wearing, the pose, and the environment. Perhaps if I saw you in a night club . . . or saw Matt Damon in a night club. It doesn't mean I want to get with either of you though. It's the environment. Women in an alcohol advertisement are usually hot but the same woman in an infomercial made simply be attractive. Kimber Cook's avatar (twitter) is hot . . . change the clothes, change the environment and she may simply be attractive in the photo. Good example is the avatar(s) that 'AGood' maintains online. All of them are attractive but none of them are 'hot'. But her attractiveness is just one attribute she has . . . she is also intelligent and a great writer (unlike me).
Great post . . . and the type of material that should be covered on SEOmoz. I am on the opposite side of the spectrum and I don't feel that makes me a sexist (though I am sure plenty will disagree) but the ability to have these conversations openly and still maintain respect throughout and after the process is one of the search industry's greatest strengths.
Now I need to go take a shower and get to work. I have a 4 minute commute you know (unless the elevator takes forever then it could extend to 6 minutes). ;-)
Brent D. Payne
You lost me at "Depends on what you are wearing, the pose...". If Matt Damon is wearing leather chaps and striking a "ride 'em cowboy pose...he's...?
@seanmaguire - yes . . . he'd be hot (just not hot to me, but it'd be a hot photo versus an attractive photo). This may be a deep concept for a caveman. So I'll translate . . . argh grunt grrr harhh farrgh herhg ;-)
Brent D. Payne
@Brent
I understand where you are coming from, but I think the problem is one of tone. Consider this made up example:
(I'll pepper my sample texts with plenty of asterixs to keep it clean...)
3 Comments on a picture of an attractive woman:
"Wow, she is beautiful!"
"Damn, this girl is HOT! I would completely hit that!"
"OMG she is so f***able, I would totally r*** that stupid b**** and then..." etc etc etc
Commenting on a sexual interest/attraction to someone is one thing. Displaying alarming rape fantasies and sexual objectification is another. I think this blog is talking about the darker comments that are out there - and there are plenty of them...
I wholeheartedly disagree on the sensitivity issue. I think that's just what a lot of people say to skirt the issue rather than face it head on. Like I said, there are literally people getting upmodded for comments like, "She must got to the Hillary Clinton School for Cunts!" (this comment, incidentally, was deleted, so now I can't link to it. No joke.) - and I find that offensive. I don't think that's me being too sensitive. Yes, I have a sense of humor, yes, I think that people can identify me as a woman and I have no problem with that. But I think to say that the reason these things bug me is that I'm too sensitive is absurd. These things bug me because they are wrong.
@Brent D Payne: *blush* thanks for the "hot" comment.
yes, i intentionally dressed up like a school girl reading the google for fun. and yes, i've received a fair share of comments and attention from the avatar but i wouldn't consider any of it to be sexism. just like i don't consider Brent D Payne's super sexy pic with girls and guns sexism. i find it sexy and fun. but sexy is not the same as sexism.
i think of sexism as derogatory, thinking one sex is inferior to the other. i agree with LGTim's comment. a compliment is not the same as sexual objectification, even if the person is seen as objectifying themselves.
no problem . . . and I agree with your definition that sexism is feeling one sex is inferior. I don't feel that way at all, never have, and never will.
I do, however, find women to me more appealing than men. Men are just disgusting overall. Too hairy, too smelly, less kept, etc.
Brent D. Payne
As a woman in the SEO industry and as a patron of the internet at large, it drives me crazy that the "woman" version of something always has to be flowery, bedazzled, and contain 99 posts about Sex in the City.
Just because I'm a woman, that doesn't mean I have an inherent desire to discuss wedding invitations, celebrity babies or period panties.
Sexism or not, I'll take the regular internet over the pink martini'd version.
Couldn't agree more.
Spoken like today's real woman. I feel this is the least sexist comment on this thread. Why? It states, "Put me on the same playing field as everyone else. I can hold my own and throw my own punches."
Thumbs up!
And I strongly hope you don't think that I was advocating a pink, martini'd version of the internet. I don't think that in order for something to be pro-woman it must inherently be a pink, fluffy, cheap imitation of the real thing. I'm very pro-woman, and I don't own any pink. It's really a detriment to the women's movement that to think because I'm a feminist I somehow want to talk about wedding invites, celebrity babies, and the like.
What I'm advocating is that people be aware of the impact of their words, particularly when those words are hateful toward women (or hateful towards ANYONE, for that matter). If they chose to continue to use they language they've been using, that's their decision. But I think that people need to start talking responsibility for what they say online. I'm not asking for a lighter version of the internet. I asking that people open their eyes and realize the true impact of what they say.
And yeah, I guess they probably won't. Like I said, I might be naive, or maybe an optimist.
Nice post MG, certainly thought provoking. Personally I don't think I agree though (possibly this means I'm a sexist at heart - who knows!). My thoughts are somewhere between what Will said and Ciaran said.
Most of what you've linked to is people being offensive rather than specifically sexist. The sexism in my mind is a symptom of the offensiveness (and that the majority of users are male).
And is this really a problem? You look at a lot of those comments and they wouldn't look out of place on the daily show when said tongue in cheek. And we all love the daily show. Yes it's offensive, but people are offensive - if you made the conversations that went on in pubs public I think you'd see very similar comments. Just because the web is evolving and things are now public doesn't mean that people have changed, it's just that you can now link to it directly and show it to the world.
Yes, this might have frightening implications as regards children on the net etc but I don't think this problem is limited to either reddit or sexism. And personally - I don't have a problem with it, I actually find the offensiveness very very funny at times.
It's worth bearing in mind that the percentage of people who are polite, rational and intelligent is tiny.
Some very good points there Tom, and intelligently made. I guess that my fear is that a lot of the people making the sort of comments MG talks about don't have the intelligence to appreciate the irony...
I think the key point is that asshole-ishness and sexist are not mutually exclusive. Yes, a lot of people of reddit are jerks across the board. That doesn't mean they're not sexist. It just means that if we managed to sufficiently address this problem, we'd still have a lot of work to do.
In a way (and I noted this on Will's comment, too, and I'm sorry, but you'll just have to share) I think that it might be that we see a lot of sexist comments and think, "Well, that's offensive" without realizing why, and in this case, of the major reasons is that it's anti-feminist. I'm not sure why, but a lot of people have blinders on (which I don't think they're wearing willingly) when it comes to this issue. We know something feels funny, and we can't figure out quite why ... it's just wrong.
I think that discussion is a great start to solving a problem, so if you feel there is a problem with a site being sexist, racist, or any other "ist" you can discuss it, as you have done here with the reddit issue. Yum, discussion is good. Beyond discussing you only have...
Choices: Stay or go
Stay and not do anything.
Stay and submit women orientated stories and encourage your friends or community to do likewise. I cretainly would do this for you, and I don't even know you, I am sure others would do the same.
Go and decide that site isn't for you.
Go and create your own version of what you see fit.
A Thought:
People see things from different perspectives. There are, as you mentioned, other communities where ample people with your perspective (that disrespectful and sexist behavior is bad) so I don't understand why you would spend time in an environment you don't like. That isn't to say that you don't have a right to be where ever you want to be, but I have often struggled, really really struggled with the idea that one persons perspective is better than anothers.
In my humanitarian aid days I watched Christians slaughter Muslims and watched Muslims slaughter Christains. It is bizarre to me that one belief is held so strongly by a person that "their" way is correct. Not just in war but in peace too.
Which is why I wonder why you would spend time at a social site that you feel is sexist. Social media is that, it is social. There are plenty of things I don't approve of, like racism or sexism or hunting for sport, but there are social sites about hunting for sport and there are social sites for different things I consider racist and sexist. I don't participate in them.
Reddit is not a workplace or somewhere you are forced to go, it is an internet based social news site. It reflects it's millions of users.
You believe that there is sexism on reddit, (I agree by the way and have never really liked that community).
Why use it?
Correct the problem, don't let then claim you as one of their members.
If you want to change behavior of others, you might want to struggle with the idea that everyone has their own perspective, and the way people talk in one place is different than they talk in another.
I don't like sexism, and I don't like racism, and I do not like genital mutilation, or forced marriage, or the trafficing of humans.
I also don't like judging others.
If I think it is wrong for others to speak a certain way or to have the perspectives they have then I am offensive to the right of free speech, or to the right of freedom of religion. I am also saying others are wrong and I am right.
People speak differently at bars than they do in the workplace and people speak different at a hair salon than they do while on a hunting trip. People speak differently at reddit than they do at boudica.
I don't know, but I don't think you can classify a whole community as sexist. You are, after all, one of that community.
I think it is great you brought this up and I think it will be discussed widely and make alot of people think. Yum.
I also think that this is a great linkbait campaign in addition to an interesting discussion.
Feedthebot . . .
Perfectly stated.
1. People speak differently depending on the environment they are in. What I say at a bar or club is wildly different than what I say at work (even to the same person). There are videos and pictures of me out there that would kill my career if they were presented at the next company wide meeting. Not because of content but because of perception.
2. If it's a hostile environment where you HAVE TO BE that is wildly different than a hostile environment YOU CHOOSE TO BE. I have set that several times on this page but I am reiterating my opinion of your accuracy of your statements along the same thought process.
3. Judging is something I have significant experience with (as the judger). I used to be extremely religious to the point that I judged everyone that wasn't the most devoted of christian/mormon belief. I even went as far as casting aside my family because they didn't act a certain way that I SAW FIT. That ultra-judgemental conservative stance is something I find much more shameful than dropping an occasional f-bomb, getting a little too liquored up at a party and doing or saying something stupid, or getting wrapped up in a 'boyz night out' either online (Sean, Rashi, and others for example via twitter or here on SEOmoz) or via some co-workers here in Chicago and objectifying women more than I normally would. If the world would just chill out a little bit and be more tolerant to people's opinions and viewpoints we would have a better society. Where is that line? Maurice Mac at history teacher at Riverside High School, Boardman, OR once told me the answer, "When the rights of one person diminishes the rights and choices of another." They say that teaching changes the world . . . well, it changed my viewpoint on a lot of things in life.
4. This is a KILLER linkbait campaign. But we all know that SEOmoz is the definitive king of linkbait creation. ;-)
Great comment . . .
Brent D. Payne
Way to fill up my Crackberry guys - the new post alerts have been pouring in and I only went for dinner for a couple of hours.
Anyway, you make some great points Pat, but then you would. You're right that tolerance and understanding are what is so often missing from so many aspects of the world we live in.
HOWEVER, and this is probably too big a topic for even this thread, that doesn't mean that there is no such thing as right or wrong, even when it comes to the beliefs of other people or cultures. Now I'm going to get a little political, for which I kind of apologise,but I think there are some dangerous precedents being suggested...
Please feel free to skip ahead if you have no interest in the late night (yet sober) ramblings of a liberal-ish Englishman.
There's a great journalist over here called Nick Cohen who writes in The Observer. He wrote an amazing column a few years back on the dangers of relativism, which holds that every POV is just as 'correct' as every other. He argued that we were at risk of losing many of the benefits gained from the Enlightenment (a time that lead to the beliefs that the US was built on), due to the fact that some argue that everything is 'true' or 'right' in a relative sense.
Some things are just wrong; saying anything else is simply being culturally patronising or making excuses. Female circumcision, homophobia, sexism, racism, caste systems, the list goes on (and many of the things that are wrong exist in our culture, so this isn't an us & them thing).
Like I said, this is probably going to far off topic, and straying into dangerously deep waters, but arguing that MG doesn't have to go somewhere where things are being said which are fundamentally offensive, and, yes, wrong, doesn't mean that these things don't deserve being dragged into the light of day.
I realise that freedom of speech is an incredibly important ideal in the US (and over here to be honest) but allowing someone to say something doesn't stop us from judging them.
Anyway, that MG, I'd totally tap...oh.
I will slap you into next week if you start crap with me, Ciaran. ;) You know I weigh more than you, right?
First off, I have to say that I'm genuinely concerned that the exchange between Danny and I was taken badly. I think we simply saw it as an ironic coincidence, and I talk to Jane enough online to know she's generally pretty laid back about things. Looking back at it from an outside view, though, I can see how the exchange could come across the wrong way, and I sincerely apologize if it did.
I often wonder with the internet, whether it's sexism, racism, or general bad behavior, whether: (1) the internet and anonymity are increasing ugly behavior, or (2) the internet is revealing ugliness that was already there. If it's the latter, I think it's good in some ways. Especially here in the U.S., we've created a shallow veneer over some of our ugliness, and we need to get it out in the open. To paraphrase my favorite Ted Nugent quote: "If it wasn't for the 1st Amendment, how would we know who all the assholes are?"
As to those who think it's simply general offensiveness, I think the attacks on female bloggers are a pretty clear example that that's not entirely true. Although I think the people doing it are in the minority, there have been some nasty mysoginistic streaks online, and we all need to be aware of and outspoken about those incidents. At the very least we need to support the people who are victims of those attacks, especially our fellow industry professionals.
I realized you were joking with Danny - I don't think you did any harm, but it was an interesting example, because it could appear sexist. However, knowing you and Danny, if another mozzers name had been up there (regardless of gender) you'd have made the same crack. And yes, it would have been equally, if not more, funny.
And Danny is still my favorite intern.
Rest assured, if it had been "Grab Rand Most", that comment thread would only have been longer and funnier :)
<blockquote>(2) the internet is revealing ugliness that was already there</blockquote>
I think this is moreso the case. In general, I think society is generally pretty respectful*. The anonymity of the internet allows those who have such thoughts to express them without as much backlash as they'd likely receive in other mediums.
* There are, of course, exceptions to this, such as MG's example as an intern.
Like several people here, I too consider many social networks are offensive in general than offensive to women in particular.
Your examples of reddit remind me of my experience at Digg that's also been rather painful: I hava a feeling that there are plenty of highly educated, well-bred members there but their voice remains unheard (or not so heard) because of other immature aggressive teens their who can't behave.
I didn't notice any bias towards women in particular there...
@annsmarty You are a well-known expert in search, how do you deal with it?
xkcd solved this problem a while ago... "Joanna, fire."
Well as long as we're invoking XKCD...someone's wrong...
I'm confused...
Should we take Rishil's word, that he's a he, or Mystery Guest's word that he's a she...???
We don't really care to discuss sexism online, we just want to know about Rishil's Avatar! :-D
He's a he - I've met him.
But I love the fact that he's now likely to get even more creepy emails due to MG's messing with the head of the Moz readers...
That was my intention.
Me Man. Me no woman.
@rishil love the caveman verbiage as your response ;-) classic!
I thought so!!!!!!!
apparently today's MediaPost's Search Insider thinks you're a chick too.
As someone whose name means that I regularly arrive at events to find a Mrs Norris badge, this is bloody brilliant.
You brought it on yourself man!
Deleted Repeat comment.
This is so flipping unfair! Lol. I dont really care though. The worst thing that can happen is that people get startled when they meet me expecting a hot jd licking chick.
Whos the pervert? Me or them? :P
Ooooo! I gotta unfriend ya on twitter - ladies only and all that
(KIDDING!)
I agree that you have to play with the boys but at the same time you don't have to tolerate sexist and juvenile comments. I think the best course of action when encountering that type of behavior is to leave (I don't spend anytime on most of those sites) or ignore it. Attempting to correct it usually backfires.
I have been a software engineer since the 80's. I was one of a few women in my computer classes. None of the boys (and yes they were boys) wanted to be my partner for compiler design so I had to do it alone. In another case I was hurt by comments made by some male classmates and commented to friends - 'just wait - some day I will be their boss' but my friends correctly pointed out that those types would quit rather than work for a women. I can not change them.
In the work world I competed and won projects and again, often found myself the only woman. There would always be an engineering macho test that I would have to pass to prove that I knew what I was doing before I was accepted as 'one of the guys'.
I used to just have my initials as my email address to be gender neutral, but now I just don't care. I am who I am and just like I will not try to hide that I am a women I will also not try to be in my 20s again (although somedays it sure would be nice.)
While there are a lot of terrible and sexist sites on the internet, I choose not to visit them. I never just happen to end up on a porn site. It is actually easy to make your own world on the internet by selecting where you spend your time. Maybe this is chickening out by not fighting a battle, but I only have so much time in a day and I can not change anyone else. It really doesn't bother me that much because I don't even see the offensive content as I am somewhere else - somewhere like seomoz - not any of those sites specifically targeted at women.
I definitely don't think you are a coward. Quite the opposite. I think you are much, much farther along the path of enlightenment and acceptance than I am. And I have profound respect for that!
One of the wonderful things about the internet is the ability to comment and act without anyone knowing who you are.
It's also one of the worst things.
Without the social ramifications that would come with people you actually know in real life finding out that you've said or done some horribly offensive things, there is, for some people, no reason not to say them anymore. Kind of like graffiti in public washrooms.
This anonymity also contributes, IMO, to spam, bullying, abuse and many other Very Bad Things.
I think it's important to allow people to comment without fear of social retribution (this can be critical in repressive environments), but in that case, their comments should not be treated as importantly as people who are willing to stand behind their words.
I think that we don't need a "women's" social site, we need a "responsible" social site, where people who are identifiable (I don't mean their home address, I mean as a specific, individual, unique online persona that can be banned, praised etc).
Take a look at this blog or almost any other online forum - almost without fail, the most valuable members of the community are "real". They are not hiding. You can meet them at conferences. They often use their real name as handles.
I think that this is what's missing in the social media. It should not be about being more gender, race, or religion friendly, it should be more socially responsible, period. It won't stop social neanderthals from being who they are, of course, but that's true in real life, as well. But I find in practice that being held responsible for your actions and words results in a more civil and mature discourse.
Social media having social ramifications and being socially responsible - imagine that!
Ian
I think you are absolutely right - we don't necessarily need social sites geared towards women - we just need some that are socially responsible. As I was saying towards the end of the post, though, the scales are so tilted against women, that even a gender-neutral site would be, for me at least, a crowning achievement for feminism.
As a woman in this business, I see your point. From what I gather I am in the minority to begin with. Who'd a thought is what I thought. :-)
I don't visit reddit personally (too busy), but I've encountered this on various other SM sites, as well in my real life working with business owners. Especially, business owners that are older men. I've run across so many that have a certain mindset and boy, I hate it. 9/10 x I get the project, but it's difficult, :-). It's like I have to double my efforts when a man could show up w/the same info, same charts, etc. etc. and walk out much easier with the project than myself. Life I suppose.
As far as sexism it's goes very deep. It's the mind set that has been there for centuries in regards to the way women are thought upon "in general". Not everyone, just in general. You can see it offline and online, within various circles, various cultures, etc.
I can't speak for all women obviously, but I've just learned to work around it the best that I can. Oh, I fully believe that if I hired some guy to do my sales I would probably increase my profit margin, but I wouldn't fill right "using" him in that way. ;-)
Sorry, I love "Married with Children". As a married man, I love the humor behind the married men bashing wife jokes. Is my wife like Mrs. Bundy? Absolutely not. I think she is the best mom and wife. But why do I love Married with Children? Because I am a guy, I will always be a guy and so will Rand and the others. It is a natural animal instinct (for all humans) to come up with associations and generalizations. We are all sexist, racist, some sort or another hater of things. If we dont hate something, we cannot possibly be a human. Those generalizations will rarely surface in a world of internet where reputation management is everything. It will also never happen in the offline world where people are scared off in the land of lawsuits and getting fired, (or in the case of celebrities, losing sponsorships) for the simple discrepancy on politically correct issues.
Now let's raise the stakes one level up.
My wife loves the reality show "Beauty and the Geek". If those geeks on that show are a representation of the crowd in Reddit, I think actually we are pretty lucky to get away with so little of the abuse. When people are challenged in their social relationships, those frustations get sent to the frustration garbage yard called social networking sites where identities are hidden and you can say whatever you want. Are you wrong MG, no. Is this Reddit's fault, No. They believe in the 1st amendment as the rest of us.
Are you oversensitive on this issue? No. I have same sensitivities when people comment that I am some sort of a terrorist because I have Turkish origins. But do I tuck my tail and and run? No. Just like those people have a right to say their mind on their frustrations coming out. You have the right not to ever use Reddit. If enough people like you quit using Reddit, then the owners listen and may be moderate comments. I am a libertarian so I am actually against censorhip no matter how bad it gets (even if they insult my mom - noone insults a Turk's mom). In a capitalistic democracy your vote is either your money or your usage time of a media channel. That is all that matters. Nice to see you back though MG.
I learned a few things from this post.
1. If you want link bait on Reddit, use some sexy photos of women. Preferably Russian and school aged. (I wonder how many of those posts are made by SEOs...)
2. It only takes one idiot to ruin a whole thread and have other idiots make similar sexist/racist comments because they're bandwagon jumpers. I think some people just do it to ruin a discussion and piss other people off because they can.
3. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Sex sells...
4. It's probably okay to call a guy a Dick but don't call a woman a Cunt. Assholes are shared so that seems to be okay at any time. (What is the politically correct way to insult someone these days? I'm always falling behind the times.)
5. There are more teenage losers online than regular people. Because regular people probably have jobs and can't spend their whole day on the internet commenting on senseless shit like schoolgirl photos.
6. The majority of users tend to lurk but not necessarily comment. The ones that do comment and ruin things are referred to in points #2 and #5.
7. Men are sexist. This hasn't changed. It just got pushed down like racism. It's still okay as long as you don't get caught doing it.
8. Social communities are no different than social clubs. If you hang around a sports bar full of testosterone filled men, you will hear sexist comments. It's just that the net makes us feel like we have a right to belong to all clubs all the time. Which we probably should but that's just how life is. I don't hang around sports bars or biker clubs and wouldn't do so online for similar reasons. I have my interests and I stick to them because I enjoy them.
9. Starting a social networking site for women is sexist. It only segregates one group from the other. What is really needed is proper editorial review of the comments so the discussion don't degenerate into something baseless and of no value. But then you get into the question of censorship.
10. Starting a site for women's interests is not sexist and that should be the way that any new woman-centric social site should be started. But then you'd have someone complain that "Women's interests" is sexist. And of course you'd have the same jerks there as well ruining the discussion just for the fun of it so moderation is still key to any site.
11. People are still making the mistake of thinking that women are the same as men. They are not. Women are equal but different. That's why we have two sexes and not some androgynes Spielberg movie character. The sooner we can embrace the fact that we're different but one half of the same coin, the better this whole situation would be. I don't want my wife to be like me. She is equal to me in our household but it's her differences that make us a whole.
Disclaimer: With comment #11 I am in no way trying to offend or put down homosexual relationships. That is a whole other topic of discussion and not related to MG's article. Thanks :)
Thanks for pointing out my careless mistake. I am sorry if I offended anyone, (especially Jane). I intended it as a joke, but fell into the same trap as many people before me.
As always everyone should feel free to call me out when I error. Geraldine, thank you for being brave enough to use me as an example. I deserved it ;-)
I am going to refrain from deleting my comment on the other post as a reminder and a warning for myself and others. Afterall my job here is to teach people using my expereinces as an example.
Best,
Danny
Oh, and really, it was so not a big deal. More as a "See? We can all say sexist things, but that doesn't mean that we, or the sites we support, are sexist." It really was more of a counter-example than anything else. Notice that I put "could" be offensive. Not that it actually was. Context is key.
And I'll be damned if someone tries to make an example of you. I mean, err, someone besides me, that is. :)
After taking in everything, I have to give props to Geraldine for posting this. It's great to talk about controversial topics when everyone kinda disagrees, or at least has various viewpoints.
I would venture to say that no one on here is overly sexist. Do we all have our moments? Yes. Hell, I even have. I have made jokes about men and being "well trained." But I see what Geraldine is saying is the overly-offensive type.
Things like Google's logo results and even an SEOmoz Pro Member SEO Tip (for those Pro Members, and if you aren't, trust me, do it) are funny and work. As a marketer I know that using a woman's picture will sell something better. Women respond to women better, and men like looking at women. It just makes sense.
Does it make it okay to be that horrible and crass about a woman's picture saying things they say on Reddit? Nope. The people on there are just assholes. Go to any bar, you'll find some of the same. Reasons why I don't try to meet guys in a bar as a single woman - they generally (I'm using that term again) want something they just aren't getting.
So in that sense, is it a problem? Yes. Shoudl it be discussed? Yes. Is it going to change readily? Nope. I think Ciran said it right.
I am getting used to being one of the few women at conferences and discussions. But I count myself to be in excellent company (Geraldine, Jane, Lisa, Susan, and Rae to name a few) and can't wait for others to join in the party. The road to equality means standing up as a strong woman, proclaiming that fact, and taking your seat in the hall of greatness. Screw all of the non-thinkers like those commenting on Reddit that try to get in the way. They are just minor obstacles in the end.
I agree - no one here is offensive or sexist, at least not overly so. And I totally didn't mean to suggest that Danny, or Rishil, or anyone else was. I cited a few instances on SEOmoz more as a counter example than anything else.
Hey, what am I, chopped liver?
Sorry Rebecca!! I was blanking on names (Ann Smarty, Jill Whalen, etc). You are by all means on that list as well. :) :)
Really wish I'd gotten more time to talk to you when I was in Seattle. Stupid Triathalon :)
WE INTERRUPT THIS BROADCAST TO BRING YOU A SPECIAL NEWS BULLETIN
Buy your SEO Chick t-shirts here.
Geez - who are the sexist SEO Dudes that created those t-shirts anyway? I hate it when men exploit women like that!
Therefore, on behalf of all decent SEO men out there, I would like to offer my apologies to the SEO ladies of the world.
P.S. MG - I especially appreciate that you pointed out the link to the Russian girls in short dresses. While I feel it is entirely innocent for teenage girls to dress in that manner (you know, short skirts and Victoria Secret thigh highs), while frollicking around in water fountains, I find it absolutely repugnant that any boy on Reddit could have the gall to write a "sexist" comment.
Please - these 17yr old, testosterone filled boys don't even know what the term sexist means. For any men that are making those comments - they are simply sharing in the same level of immaturity.
MG - I would offer that you are simply hanging out in the wrong neighborhood - and that is your personal choice.
Yes, Sexism runs rampant on the internet. So does kindness, charity, encouragement, chivalry (see Rand), intelligent conversation, etc, etc, etc. You get what you look for.
Okay - bring the onslaught of thumbs down! I'm prepared. :)
WOOT! getting a hate mention!
@Sean Maguire
It's not hate, just some jive talkin. I have GREAT respect for what the Mozzers do as a service, and if I could afford them (and if they'd take my business), I'd use them for linkbait services in a heartbeat.
My last remarks which were shunned publicly on this board were also praised privately through the TONS of emails I got from other board members here. I only know about this posting because of another member of this site telling me so.
I hold no ill will towards Rand, Mystery Guest or anyone else for that matter (well, except for Conan O'Brien).
I was taken to task because I made a comment not popular with this community - but as mentioned earlier, I wasn't the only one feeling the same way.
-11 MozPoints to boot!
Hey FactPile! Wow. That wasn't a hate mention- and in fact, I'm happy to see you back.
It should be noted that my negative comment toward you, was contained in my very first post (a poem), and was tongue in cheek. I didn't know you then and I don't know you now. So - for any personal offense - my apologies! Sincerely.
I have to say that I only found the post that Sean referred to due to his comment here (I searched the site for factpile).
Having read it I can't see why your comments generated quite as much heat as they did. You said you thought the post was off-topic; Rand strongly disagreed (that I can understand) and the rest of the comments jumped the same way (that I can't as much).
I actually have to say that I think lumping what you said in with the offensive rubbish MG raises in this post does the discussion no good at all, as they're utterly different in tone and seriousness.
Anyway, probably not the place to start this discussion again, but I just wanted to mention it.
I thumbed you down last time, and maybe it wasnt fair fo me to do so without explaining myself. :
When you're one of the "SEO Elite" you can pretty much do anything you want, eh?
This kind of riled me - SEOmoz is or was anything BUT elite, and I felt that required a thumb down.
So, point taken, I guess this former blog lurker is not an seoMozzer. No more worries from here. Rand, feel free to eliminate my account.
I felt that this was hostile - Rand did explain why the post in question was included.
However, I dont feel that your original comment needed thumbing down, just an explanation. However - I do appreciate that others may agree with you - after all its read by thousands, but only a limited few actively participate.
Great post MG,
I hope Rand can convince you to contribute more.
Being a male, I think its so easy to overlook sexism and the male bias online and in social media because, well... it doesn't negatively effect us.
However, recently I have had to face it head on. My company has built, maintains and does the marketing for an online lesbian newsletter. I read the site every day, the editor of the site writes extremely engaging articles.
Since we started the site I have been submitting various articles to reddit and other social media sites to gauge response and it all hits a brick wall, or flamed to death.
There has been a step forward however - Reddit now have LGBT subreddits and no longer force any LGBT content into the NSFW category.
I'm keeping my eyes on a few female oriented social sites, but so far nothing big has stepped forward.
I do get a lot more luck with stumble upon though. However, many of the people stumbling it only do it because they think its porn.
if anyone has any social media female audience targeting I am very happy to listen
There's an Onion headline for you:
34yr Old White Male Not Stabbed at Compton Bus Stop
I stopped commenting on Reddit a while ago. I had a handle that was my own name; stopped using that pretty early on. My new handle was relatively gender-neutral, but probably leaned towards sounding feminine. If someone disagreed with something I said, they'd always revert to a sexist attack. It was the easy way out.
I also think there should be a distinction between someone of either sex being laid back and being down for everything. I'm pretty laid back. Amongst friends, it takes a lot to offend me. However, the Internet seems to breed a level of familiarity that can get out of hand and sometimes I do think, "that's too far" when I read things directed at me, especially from people who think they know me but don't.
And that's all I'll say.
MG,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us and I applaud your candor.
We can exercise conjecture as to 'why' people favor certain material and shape their comments in a particular fashion, but it is quite difficult considering the 'distance' user anonymity provides.
I believe part of the solution is speaking your mind (as you did here) and making others cognizant. Will it change the actions of others? Perhaps it will not, but it will plant the seed of awareness.
Once people realize the presence of sexism, racism, etc. They must make their own choice whether to participate in change or not.
I like the idea of engaging in Boudica.com. Lead by example, maybe Boudica will become the preferred reddit, and then the definition of what some users formerly deemed as 'acceptable' will shift.
It is important to be active in what you beieve in. You should be proud of yourself for posting.
Cheers
Thanks. I genuinely and truly appreciate it.
I have to say that speaking one's mind, in my opinion, is definitely the solution. I'm actually really impressed with everyone on this thread. They've managed to have a really amazing conversation, expressing many different viewpoints, without degrading into truly negative or hostile language.
So that's cool.
The world is a wierd place, and some of the younger guys on the web have no idea how to treat women so they act all 'macho' and the above results happen.
I'm sorry to say it but it doesn't surprise me that social media sites have been hit with sexism.
I'm not sure if things will improve across the SM sites but some people do need to mature
So it's an interesting enough post, but the more we "as women" make a bit deal about this, the more it's going to happen. SEO is a prodominently male field, if we wanna play with the big boys we have to get a thicker skin. Thats the same for ANY business, you can't be overly sensetive or you won't be taken seriously.
I am an advocate for women everywhere, my male friends all know if they refer to a woman as a ho or slut I'm either gonna throw something, or get started on a 20 minute femenist speech (which is worse than me throwing something).
We have to have a balance of standing our ground, putting certain douchebags into their place and having a thick enough skin to just let a lot of it go.
You have these idiots who post retarded comments because no one will hold them responsible for them, basically they would never have enough balls to say it to your face. We can't change them, but we can pity them.
/rant off
I see where you are coming from, and I think that this is one of those instances where I'm fortunate enough to not have my professional life relate closely to the community I'm critiquing. It makes it a lot easier. Because, frankly, at a few instances of sexism and outright harassment that I've encountered in my professional career (and I'm talking blatant stuff, like some guy grabbing my thighs when I was an intern at KING-5 News) I never said anything. I just figured, I can ignore this, because I don't want to make any trouble, and because I think it would inadvertently harm my career. Just time to have a thick skin.
But as someone who's career is not tied to the online community, I feel like I can and should critique it. I just don't think that the women's movement got anywhere by being quiet about it (though, interestingly, my own career fared a lot better when I was silent - interesting dynamic, eh?). Anyway, now I think I have the freedom to address these issues (though not without backlash. I'm sure a lot of people are going to see me as humorless, which I don't think I am. A lot of them are probably worried about they can't talk to me as they normally did, or pay me compliments, which isn't the case, either. I have a great sense of humor, I can take a compliment, and I am even reasonably tolerant about a fair number of questionable sexist remarks people make, often unintentionally. I just have an issue about institutionalized sexism that's largely ignored across a medium). Maybe it's "a men's site" and maybe they're "just kidding around" but those are excuses that people have used for years to get away with making crappy comments about women.
I want to hear Lorisa's take on this...
Oh, Patrick, I am so glad you're back. Never go so far away from a computer for so long, okay?
Between a day-long migraine and getting a new roof on our house today (I'm biding my time at my parents' house right now), I just haven't had a chance to respond. But I will once I reach the end of the comments :)
I do not think this is important re: SEO except that a client might not care to associate with those rude commenters. Also, some of us use SEOmoz for work and several words on this homepage probably triggered red flags on the server. Other posts might have had them, but with less frequency and variety. So, I think the post should have been linked by Rand by way of mention or not published on the main blog at all.
Hi Mystery Guest,
As disappointing as this 'laddism' crap is, it's a self-solving problem. Think of what happens to men who are incapable of seeing the opposite sex as humans equally capable of thought and feeling ... and don't grow out of it. They live lonely lives with pixels for company after the rest of the boys outgrow the Applebees phase. Or endure partnerships (if they have them) that amount to only a fraction of what people can and should experience in a relationship. If they're lucky enough to marry and still don't grow up, they can enjoy the prospect of divorcing and losing a good 1/2 to 2/3 of their life savings in the process, esp. if kids are involved.
So don't get too frustrated.
all legit points. the main problem is that most people that read reddit/digg are geeks. and a lot of geeks dont really know how to interact with the fairer sex, bar fiddling with that uber doll they purchased.......how can you have an intelligent conversation with people that get their dialogue from pr0n?
Gonna have to agree with you point there, while it doesn't make it an excuse nor cover every man that does it, it is correct in a large number of cases I am sure.
Kate - Will you please stop changing your name? This is the third name in a two weeks . . . I'm getting so confused. ;-)
Your stance is one that I find interesting as well having met you and your eyebrows (inside joke, don't try to interpret people--you'll be wrong).
Brent D. Payne
Rand started it!!!
*giggle* about the eyebrows - feedthebot is elsewhere hiking I think, too bad he's not here to comment as well.
a high percentage of them are probably quite young and immature as well
I agree. Most of these guys are just big talking wall flowers, that still live with their moms, that get a kick of using "big people talk" Their big goal in life is to star in the next "Super Bad" movie.
Very interesting post, and not something that sees a lot of discussion.
I think Will has already covered a key point extremely well, concerning general assholeishness rather than specific sexism online. The good men over at Penny Arcade provide a useful equation that illustrates this problem.
It is depressing that sexism is such a problem on Reddit, and I'd say the routine racism and homphobia that are part and parcel of online comments elsewhere (YouTube...the horror, the horror, the horror...) are equally troubling.
But what can you do? These sites depend on offering free access for comments and posted stories - any kind of editorial principle in editing the stories or the comments undermines the purpose of the site. These sites rely on the community policing itself; unfortunately this means at a certain point you have to decide whether or not you feel comfortable in that community.
I don't feel that my life would be lessened if I didn't go on Digg and Reddit if the comments got too tiresome - they only provide a very narrow niche of stories in any case. If you don't like the community, you have to try and change it as much as you can, but eventually you have to decide if the community is worth fighting for/with in the first place .
Personally, I just don't bother reading most of the comments, which is a crude but effective solution :).
Oh, hi to all by the way - I should have prefaced this comment with a "n00b alert"...
Current top post on Boudica:
https://www.boudica.com/News/Are_men_boring
"It's to do with macho-ness. The more macho a man is, the more boring he can be - that's why gay men are generally better company. Read on!"
Maybe the net is just lowest common denominator in every direction...
An excellent example that (gasp!) even a woman can be biased and espouse stereotypes even in her efforts to combat sexist posturing:
Making a blanket assumption that all (or even most) gay men are effeminate and un-manly. Pot-Kettle-Black.
Yay, LAST comment!
I personally think it's great that women are now allowed to blog.
I let our apprentice do the Reddit magic, although may check it out after the recommendations of scantily clad Russian ladies.
I agree with everything that MG said, mostly because she's nice to me.
Stop looking at my thumbs people!
Oh God, you actually posted it...
:P
Awesome post and discussion. I've read each comment, and I think everything that can be said, has already been said, so I just wanted to say that I while I am not familiar with Reddit, assuming it's as she said, I agree with every word Geraldine wrote both in the article and in her comments.
I totally understand where you're coming from and am also happy to hear others using the F word (feminism) in the true way that it was intended rather than the way it has been twisted into.
One of the big problems I see is that the sexism sometimes feels invisible (or doesn't get enough attention to be addressed). Even going to Reddit this morning, one of the top stories is "Are Women Boring?" On the same page, they manage to criticize racism.
It's really sad to me, because clearly the community takes pride in thinking that they're "enlightened," but there's clearly no shame in the overt sixism.
BTW - Tom & Brent - I seriously disagree that the comments are merely an extension of simply "offensive" behavior. I've been reading Reddit regularly for years, but never clicked through to the comments. Last night when I started going through just a few threads with MG, I was shocked (and really disgusted).
Under full-disclosure . . . I've never used Reddit and assumed that Geraldine tried to find those examples and feel you can find examples to back up any opinion online if you look hard enough. (I know people that even do this to get Wikipedia to add their opinions as facts.)
I accept your criticism and, as always, respect your opinion. If what Geraldine found is more of the 'norm' than the unique then I'd advise that she stop going to the site and find a social media site that such comments don't run so rampant. If a person goes to a bar that is offensive to them . . . why go back? Socialize elsewhere.
Brent D. Payne
Firstly, I don't see why a headline "Are Women Boring?" should be sexist? The article, after all, is about exactly that. The top comment actually says "most people are boring". I don't see any sexism there. If there is though, then boudica is just as much to blame: are men boring.
To be clear as well, I'm not saying that there isn't deeply offensive material on there but rather that it's not confined to sexism. Or reddit. It's a problem of the internet as a whole (and probably society as a whole too come to think of it)
Sexism just like sexual harassment is not restricted to men only. Women can be just as bad sometimes, but not as crass and offensive.
Agreed- I really hate the buffoonish, food-obsessed man who's portrayed in American commercials and TV all the time. He's shallow, he's a little dim, he occasionally lies to the wife (who's controlling and shrewish). It's profoundly negative, but we see it all the time.
Ann Coulter.
I rest my case your Honor.
Ann Coulter is a horrible person. It doesn't matter what's between her legs. She simply represents the worst flavor of evil.
Rum raisin?
Most likely.
MG, It was a great post. One way to help combat these issues is to discuss them. I do not use Reddit so I cant really comment on the posts. It reminds me of why i stopped caring about Myspace and other social networking sites where I do not share the same culture as other users. I do however have a few things to say about this issue:
Some have said that it is a case of "geeks" not knowing how to interact with the other sex. I disagree. I think that the entire web dichotomy lends it self to people who are socially inadequate. Now I am not a sociology major but I would think that when you have relative anonymity you are more free with your comments. With the way the net works today people can assume roles and personas with relative ease compared to real life.
I think the web has bread a place for normal unacceptable behavior to run amuck. If some of these comments were conducted in person then I suspect fights to break out and slaps to be heard. They would be warranted. I find it much more disheartening and disrespectful considering if you type it you have the ability to edit it before you hit "post" This is not case of a group of people who have foot in mouth disease.
I think that social media is at some point a reflection of traditional media. Most would agree with the way that women are treated in our "society." I am saying its right but it seems to the norm. One way to fight it is to ignore it. If I find a social site or any site in particular offensive to me I don't go back. Another thing to do is to challenge it head on.
The problem I see with fighting in the comments section is that you are trying to have a rational discussion with people that are not able to do that.
I think you are totally spot on on a few issues (though I think you meant to say "I am NOT saying its right but it seems to the norm"). There are the two ways of dealing with the situation - either leave (which is what a lot of people recommended I do) or attack it head on.
With regard to leaving, to just abandoning a site that I think is sexist, I don't know if that's responsible of me. I feel like I'm acquiescing. After all, if women had stuck to that mentality, they wouldn't be in the workforce, or even in areas of higher education. The whole "if you don't like it, leave" mentality doesn't work with feminism.
Granted, if the intention of the site is to be sexist, that's one thing (people are entitled to do what they want, however stupid I think it might be). However, if I perceive the goal of a site to be the creation of an open, welcoming exchange of ideas (which is what I always saw reddit as) then I'm going to say something if the community strays from that.
yes I meant to say "I am NOT saying its right but it seems to the norm").
I was trying to say I agree with you :)
That's what I figured. :)
i think that's completely different. sticking up for women's rights in the workforce, higher education, voting, etc. is much, much different than sticking up for women on a social networking site.
women's rights that affect all women's lives is something we cannot escape or ignore. you're talking about women's rights on a website that you can choose to not participate in. i'm not sure that's a vaild comparison.
we live in the real world, not online (well, that's debate-able for some of us). the fact is the sexist comments by 17 year old boys on one website does not affect the lives of women, except for those that read it. there's plenty of porn sites out there that objectify women to the extreme. i don't like it. and you know what? i don't go there.
I agree with your point on porn sites (clearly, that's why I'm not waging the debate there) but I think it becomes far less black and white for social networking sites, especially given that the vast majority of them (or at least, in my experience, Digg and reddit) are sexist. I'm bothered by the fact that any open community on the web tends to learn towards the misogynistic realm, unless the owners of the site make a concerted effort for it not to. To be that's indicative of a trend across the entire internet, and while we don't live there, per se, we kind of do. To me, it's the next great medium that women need to stake a claim in, and I think if we don't start pointing out and condemning instances of sexism on the web, it seems as though we're compliant with it. And I think that could be extrapolated on a grand scale that would impact many, if not all women (If you don't have internet or a computer, theoretically you wouldn't apply ... though I suppose one can be subjugated without their knowing it ... another interesting discussion for another time).
I suppose in the end it becomes an issue of expressing ones distastes with these sites. I'm not necessarily advocating people visit sites that upset them (indeed, it's a tactic of mine that I've questioned thoughout the post - is it a good idea that I'm even here?, etc., etc.) but I don't think they should be quiet about it either, or allow themselves to be bullied out of a site that they once enjoyed. Of course, staying requires a lot of sacrifices, and it genuinely isn't an easy thing to do. Whether or not it's worth it is what I'm trying to evaluate.
And . . . at the top of Digg today:
20 Hottest Possible Threesomes In TV History
. . . but they got the page views and their advertiser's dollars. Until that stops (which it won't, though this list is a bit weak) . . . it'll keep happening.
Brent D. Payne
@MG; WOW!! You got almost 12 hours worth of comments! I teach school and am happy when my students respond for six hours a day!!
Great post to keep all these SEO's attention!!
Kudoz to you guys. Only seomoz community could have brought such a bold issue into light so gracefully. What matters more is your attitude - how you take it. May it be vennesa fox using domain name venessafoxnude with a punch line -'what, you were expecting pictures?" or may it be the seo-chicks community (using sweet offensive language). The bottom line here is every one seeks attention and that even real fast and internet is the only medium where you have such a big time freedom of expression; so much that you might end up offending others.
BTW, in the SEO community, if women have some limitation, they enjoy some privileges too (which we men don't have). Again it's the people (thecommunity) that builds up, like minded people coming together or brought together). Try and compare the seomoz community to the reddit community, those posts might get different reactions all together here. Additionally, most people tend to be discrete while posting comments here at seomoz as one never knows some one might not like what you say and thumb you down and lure for a premium membership works (atleast in my case). Having said that, even seomozers might behave differently at reddit coz you dont fear that you will be thumbed down for offending some one. Human nature behaves differently in different environment.
Really nice post Mystery guest and Very well presented too. Thumbs up ! :)
The problem with labelling anything "XYZ"ist is that we assume the problem is an attitude to XYZ, when often it is simple, plain hostility with any outlet afforded it.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20070622-000002.html has a good comment on this, under the heading: Men sexually harass women because they are not sexist
"Abuse, intimidation, and degradation are all part of men's repertoire of tactics employed in competitive situations. In other words, men are not treating women differently from men—the definition of discrimination, under which sexual harassment legally falls—but the opposite: Men harass women precisely because they are not discriminating between men and women."
So, the nastiness you feel from a site like Reddit is NOT sexist (as in "Sexism is prejudice or discrimination based on gender") but rather a manifestation of the way men compete normally. Ironically, this is a sign of NON-sexism.
I know that is seriously counter-intuitive, but hey, that ain't my fault!
Is the internet inherently sexist?
Of course it is. It's a reflection of the people on it, and as the world is sexist, it just follows that a wide open communication medium would be too.
The internet is also inherently crass and abusive, just because there's nothing to stop that kind of message from getting through, and the anonymity of the web allows people who may feel powerless IRL to become bullies online.
None of this should be taken as an excuse for the kind of crap that shows up on sites like reddit, but for what it's worth, it's far more pleasant than digg.
I mostly go there for the political and anti-religious ranting -- subjects which a lot of the old timers there constantly claim are the ruination of dear old reddit. My comments are only occasionally trashed, but then again, they're only occasionally praised. And if I submit anything, it's invariably ignored.
But I don't care. I'm not in it for the karma. I'm in it for... well, I don't know what I'm in it for, but sometimes it does feel pretty good just to say your say, especially when your opinion isn't a popular one -- another aspect of the anonymity of the web.
Thought provoking post to say the least. I've become fairly immune to the trolls of the interwebs, but I can certainly see how a pervasive atmosphere such as the one created by the commenters on reddit would make any woman uncomfortable.
I take issue with the idea that women need to relegate themselves to a women's social media site. I don't really think thats the answer, although its a good niche and certainly has merit on its own.
Whether or not I agree with all of the individual points you've made, its important and beneficial to hear the viewpoint of someone in the minority. We can't control other people's behaviour, but we can seek to make ourselves aware of how it feels to be in the other person's shoes and act accordingly ourselves.
I hope you can take some comfort in knowing that the majority of those commenters are likely reclusive nerds hiding out in their parents basement, with a jaded viewpoint of women borne of having little to no interaction with an actual woman.
Sadly it's not going to go away any time soon whilst frustrated nerds dominate the social web, and continue to exchange hearty e-slaps on the back for belittleing anyone of other race/gender etc
Far more worrying is the amount of racist vitriol that inbreds spew in Youtube comments, urgh.
And on a lighter note, I keep reading the title as 'Sexism runs Rampant Rabbit'
Oops..
Here's the golden addvice:
1) Stop visiting reddit
2) Start a social media site for women!
You know, I don't get to reddit much to see such a thing. I think a decision to get involved with this new vibe boudica.com would be a good thing for you. This is a place where you can start to make a difference and create an enviroment that women feel comfortable in. You surely have the passion to be a strong asset to such a project.
If it is an issue you and rand are both passionate about it might be time to break out the dynamic duo t-shirts.
There's also kirtsy.com (neé sk*rt).
That is interesting
That comic linked at the end reminds me of a future Shop commercial that insinuated that if the man bought a laptop he could more easily hide his porn habit form his wife. Needless to say, I will never shop at Future shop again.
But this sort of thing seems to be rampant and acceptable in certain sectors of soceity. Take beer advertisements, for example. Almost uniformly sexist (what, do women not drink beer? Guess not. Maybe we would if the ads weren't so offensive).
I don't have experience with Reddit but I find that unmoderated communities often degenerate to the lowest common denominator and then stuff like this starts to creep in. I'm sure a lot of men have been turned off as well.
I feel so much better after reading this, there were times I thought it was just me and I was getting bashed around for no good reason. Then I would get some sexist comment and be shocked.
I admit to ending my participation in areas where I felt I wasn't even allowed a voice at all, because I am female or a marketer.
I admit to creating gender neutral screen-names so that I would at least get a chance to tell people about something.
I have heard that people are freer about their opinions online because they can hide behind their screen-name and not share their real identity. So they can be crash, rude and otherwise obnoxious online when they would never dare off line.
Just don't understand why people still think that way and where they come off thinking any form of discrimination is something they should do.
MG, just wanted to thank you for writing such a discussion-provoking post. One of the things I love about the moz community is how well it can discuss controversial subjects with as much respect to everyone involved as it does.
I had no idea there were such comments going on on Reddit - I only see the headlines on my google homepage, and usually just click through to the actual story without ever seeing the discussion. But honestly, I'm not surprised. That type of thing is why I stopped reading slashdot. I found many of the articles on there informative, but couldn't handle the immature, offensive, rude, and sexist comments.
Several people have suggested you just stop going to Reddit. But what would that solve? If people don't speak up on these sites, those who are posting offensive (in any form) comments will never know they are hurting people, and will continue to do so. I think you should stick with Reddit, and stick with trying to make it a more civilized community.
Great article! Rand and MG, no need to worry about this article being too uncomfortable. It definitely says what it needs to say and I'm sure Reddit is not the only site that this is happening at on the web. The worst part is that there are enough people out there that are that immature and hostile and actually have a say as to what stories are "hot".
I've yet to visit this new boudica site , but I am curious how can the vouch that each member is an actual woman? Couldn't anyone post and pretend to be a woman?
OK, I haven't read all the comments, but related to the post I must say you are right, I saw that girl circunsition ritual and its just barbarian, I read and article today that Egypt will penalize that kind of activities and I said great! but i kept on reading to find out that the penalty for damaging a little girl for life is around $1000 or a few months to 2 years in prison, F$%^! how can they let people do that!!! and is still permited in case of medical necessity... what could be the necessity for that!!!!
Well.... MG...I sure liked your post, I hope now you select a little better the places you post things and I hope you keep comming back
PS. Damn Rashil!!! you're a guy??!! you sure got me fooled, don't change the avatar.. it will be fun to see who falls for it too... :)
Thank god I am a man. :)
It seems the author has discovered a few things:
1. people, especially adolescent (mental maturity, not necessarily age) males, can be dumb, mean, insensitive and offensive
2. males are visual creatures, who somtimes unashamedly ogle things they desire - women, cars, things made out of carbon fibre, etc.
3. (1) and (2) are often amplified by the anonymity of the interweb
Are these things a recent discovery for the author? She must have lived a rather sheltered life if so.
Also, Reddit is a male-dominated site - why should the stories not reflect that? You can either give up on it, or keep plugging away and encourage your sisters to join in and address the imbalance.
Until then, you can join in with the rough and tumble, accepting that there are a few obnoxious idiots in the mix. Or you can wring your hands and join a site whose front page currently contains a chick-flick review, two articles about shoes and another about period panties.
I'd respect a woman more for choosing the former.
P.S. I should add that cherry-picking a couple of stories that demonstrate the darker side of the human psyche is not justification for the sentiment of the article. I could spend 10 minutes searching Reddit to find 20 submissions that are interesting, humane and heart-warming.
I'd like to point out that really, cherry picking wasn't something that happened here at all. Actually, a few of the comments I wanted to use were deleted, and Rand and I were able to find replacements, almost instantly. A few times he actually laughed about it, saying that he was shocked at how rampant the sexism is on reddit.
Additionally, I think the fact that I'm familiar with the web (and not, as you say, living a sheltered life) makes my anger about this situation even more legitimate - I dealt with sexism, I've seen stupid remarks, I've encountered a lot of assholes - but I'm still shocked at how institutionalized and accepted it is. And yeah, I think that I should be angry about that. I think there would be a bigger problem if I wasn't. Again, I think a lot of people are making excuses rather than deal with this issue head on. So far I've heard that I'm sheltered and I'm sensitive. Neither of these really get to the issue at hand. If anything, they perpetuate a lot of the negativity I originally posted about - why is sexism so accepted and so rampant on social sites?
Also, yes, reddit is male-dominated. I find it troublesome, to say the least, that you consider that a justification for the presence of a lot of those stories on there. My problem is not that some of the stories are male-centric. In fact, most of them on reddit are, and that in and of itself, is fine with me. My problem is that you think that male-centric and sexist are one and the same. Why can't a site cater towards men and NOT objectify women? I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.
I can see you do feel passionately about the issue. I guess there arent any excuses to the behaviour on the web that causes offense - I dont think you are sheltered - I have read your previous posts, and as you rightly point out, have asked you to return to posting here.
The unfortunate thing is that the communities you highlight and the behaviour you mention, turn into mudslinging contests, instead of being moderated. Thats the one disadvantage of social networks - freedom to speak.
Maybe community needs better flagging systems to highlight offense - I know I use it on digg frequently when I see racists comments.
My honest question is, do you and other female mozzers honestly feel that my avatar is sexist? If so, I shall change it - not because I believe it is sexist, nor because I am aiming to please the female readers of moz, nor because of equality.
The only reason I feel I would take it off is because it offends on the grounds of you as a "person" not a "woman" i.e - were you male, would you still find it offensive if you held the same principles you have now?
It doesn't offend me one bit, I think it's crazy it was even used as an example. Leave the avatar up please.
Bless you Rishi - I don't think it's sexist or offensive in any way...Don't go changin' :)
Rishi - I'm appalled by your Avatar. Please change the bottle to Grey Goose.
I've never really put a whole lot of thought to it. Thought you were a women for a while until I saw a picture of you.
Okay - I really, really need to get to they gym but I wanted to put one quick comment in regarding this issue, because I don't want to leave you hanging.
Now, in terms of whether or not something offends me as a woman or a person, I can't differentiate. I can't say what would still offend me if I was a man, but I doubt that it would be any different that what offends me know. Sexism bugs me because it's unfair. And I'd hope that unfairness would bother me even if I wasn't the intended target (much the way racism bothers me even if I'm not part of the group being subjugated).
That being said, I think intent is an important factor behind all of this. I found your Avatar to originally be a little, well, provocative. I also thought it was you in the picture. When Rand explained that you were male, and that it was just a picture you liked, I was a little iffy about it (seemed like you were kind of objectifying women - but I didn't know you at the time- and still don't, really). However, Rand told me that you were an awesome contributor on the blog, and a really cool person who was an important part of the community. Enough said. Context is key. It always is (maybe an important thing to think about ... how often do we get context online?).
That being said, when I tried to think of blatant examples of sexism on SEOmoz, I couldn't, except for my initial feelings to your Avatar, which, of course, were not within context (apparently, you just really like Jack Daniels). So I chose that example, and also thought it would be funny since apparently many others also thought it was you in the picture.
I'd say this - keep it if you want it. Will it offend some people? Probably. Does it offend me? Not as much as it did. We have to know the rules before we can break them - I think as long as we realize and are sensitive to our actions, there's no reason for us to change behaviors that had no alterior motive. Clearly your intention was to illustrate your love of Jack Daniels. If that is still the case, go with it.
I just wanted to thank you for the post and your follow up comments.
I was a young police officer when a woman I had never met, looked me straight in the eye and said, "I don't like men, especially cops and especially YOU!"
I think my response was something like, "It's a pleasure to meet you too."
We have been married for more than twenty five years now.
Her first impression of me was dead on, but because of her I wanted to be a better person. I put away my sexist ways, at least the ones that offend. I work to be a good husband to my wife and good father to my daughter.
I get tired of TV and media bashing men for an easy joke, but dim bulbs like the ones you point out give them all the ammo they need.
I don't find the avatar offensive.
MG,
You've rolled out a few strawmen here.
Sexism is not 'accepted' - amongst anyone with a clue... and there are plenty of men who do have a clue. I have most certainly not justified any of the stories you highlighted - they are ugly and unacceptable. I do not believe male-centric and sexist are 'one and the same'. I do not consider any 'justification for the presence for those stories'.
To repeat: you've rolled out a *lot* of strawmen. Or maybe I just didn't make myself clear.
I simply believe these things exist. The debate should focus on how we all address that.
I ignore the half-wits most of the time - whether they are racist, sexist or Republicans (;)). When I do take the trouble to engage them, I make my feelings clear. It rarely, if ever, will have any direct effect. However, if enough people pile on, they may gain some sense of shame and a realisation that they are not funny, clever or deserving of admiration. That is not going to be an overnight win. In the meantime I shrug it off. Maybe that's just easier for me because I'm male, white and wealthy (relative to most of the planet).
As for 'objectification of women' - I'll tell a story. A friend's girlfriend was bemoaning the lechery she received when she wore a Wonderbra and a low-cut top -"men keep staring at my chest". Y' don't say?! If all women were in lock-step here, there may not be an issue, but there's plenty of the girls who actively seek this attention. Is there any surprise that some of the less cogniscent boys are unable to filter when it's OK and when it's not?
Maybe what I objected to with your article was that it seems the entire responsibility has been handed over to the Y chromosome carriers. That's unfair and an oversimplifcation.
I don't hang out on Reddit, but I spend some time on Digg. There are women who hang out there. They evidently ignore, accept or argue with the fuckwits who inhabit that ecosystem. Just as I do. Just as you can.
Final point. I'll speak out against anyone who victimises someone based on skin color, sex or sexual orientation - and I won't let any of them chase me off. Suggest you take the same attitude.