There are some basic questions about SEO that come up really frequently, and it's often easy to assume an answer that isn't exactly right. In today's Whiteboard Friday, Rand tackles three of them:
- Should I put subsections of my site on subdomains or in subfolders?
- Should I use a rel canonical or a 301 redirect to move content on a separate site over to my main domain?
- If I have multiple websites all linking back to my main site, does that help or hurt my SEO?
For reference, here's a still of this week's whiteboard!
Video transcription
Howdy, Moz fans, and welcome to another edition of Whiteboard Friday. This week we're going to chat about structuring content, placing content, and placing links, specifically with regards to some things that have come up over and over again in the SEO world, but still seem to be a challenge for many of us who play in the field.
One of the questions that I'm going to start with is around subdomains and subfolders, because this just comes up again and again and again. I think one of the reasons it's emerged in the last few years is, unfortunately, some statements by Googlers themselves -- a statement a few years ago from Matt Cutts, and one, I think last year or two years ago, from John Mueller basically saying, "Hey, Google has gotten much better at identifying and associating content that's on a subdomain with the main domain, and you don't need to worry about placing content on two separate subdomains anymore."
I am sure that Google has actually made strides in this area, but this question still has the same answer that it did years ago. I'll show you some examples.
You're asking, "Should I put my content on a subdomain, or should I put it in a subfolder?" Subdomains can be kind of interesting sometimes because there's a lot less technical hurdles a lot of the time. You don't need to get your engineering staff or development staff involved in putting those on there. From a technical operations perspective, some things might be easier, but from an SEO perspective this can be very dangerous. I'll show you what I mean.
So let's say you've got blog.yoursite.com or you've got www.yoursite.com/blog. Now engines may indeed consider content that's on this separate subdomain to be the same as the content that's on here, and so all of the links, all of the user and usage data signals, all of the ranking signals as an entirety that point here may benefit this site as well as benefiting this subdomain. The keyword there is "may."
I can't tell you how many times we've seen and we've actually tested ourselves by first putting content on a subdomain and then moving it back over to the main domain with Moz. We've done that three times over that past two years. Each time we've seen a considerable boost in rankings and in search traffic, both long tail and head of the demand curve to these, and we're not alone. Many others have seen it, particularly in the startup world, where it's very popular to put blog.yourwebsite.com, and then eventually people move it over to a subfolder, and they see ranking benefits.
But even more telling was a recent example from just a few months ago on the iwantmyname blog. Timo Reitnauer wrote on the iwantmyname blog a piece about how he had moved their content actually from the main domain to a subdomain, which is not usually the way we see things going. But, man, when that happened, ugly, super, super ugly. You can see his traffic graph. He graphed his Google search traffic and showed, from his Google Analytics, a nice snapshot of when they made the move, what happened to their search traffic, how long it took to recover. It actually still hasn't recovered. It's been five or six months now. So very, very frustrating for them, and they're going to move it back over. I think maybe they already have moved it back over.
But this was great in that this piece went to the front of Hacker News. Lots of folks from around the startup and technology worlds commented on it, shared their experiences and opinions as well.
Bottom line is it's really dangerous to put content on a subdomain still. I believe John and I believe Matt when they say that Google has made strides in this direction. The problem is they're not good enough or perfect enough to rely on that factor, and so I'd really urge everyone to keep your content on one single sub and root domain, preferably in subfolders. That's how you're going to maximize your potential SEO benefit. This is one of those technical SEO things that just hasn't changed for many years now.
Next up, a question around rel=canonical, and 301s, especially cross-domain rel=canonical, meaning people are pretty comfortable with the rel=canonical that sits on your own website on your pages and maybe says, "Hey, the print version of this page should actually be considered the same as the web version of this page. Or the mobile version of this page should be considered the same as the regular version." That's fine.
But folks have more questions when it comes to cross-domain rel=canonicals and content that perhaps they own because they own multiple websites, or they have licensing agreements across those, or they have business development or partnerships, those kind of things. So they're wondering, "Hey, I've got content on multiple websites, and I want to move some of that content, or I want engines to interpret it all as coming from my site. Should I put it on the other website and use a 301 to redirect it, or should I use a cross-domain rel=canonical to say the old page is now the new page?"
Well, actually this is one where, from a technical perspective, the engines are doing a pretty darn solid job. Google is doing a very good job. We've seen Bing make strides here with cross-domain rel=canonical. They seem to be doing a pretty good job as well. I haven't tested them as intensely though recently.
Basic story is with the 301, other site.com/a can redirect to your site.com/a, and both visitors and engines, anyone requesting the old page, get the new page. The only difference with the rel=canonical is that when a visitor requests the old page, they're still going to get it. They're still going to get that othersite.com/b. Search engines, however, are going to get the new version of the page, or they're essentially going to consider these to be one and the same.
What we've seen is that, in both of these cases, the ranking signals seem to be passed very similarly, if not perfectly similarly, very similarly. It's hard to detect any difference there. But the rel=canonical can give you an option whereby you say, "Hey, I want to maintain the branding or some unique aspect of something that happens around othersite.com, and so I wish that I could have visitors be able to still go to that page, but have search engines know, hey this is actually just a copied version of this one, and if you're going to rank one of these two, I'd prefer you to rank this one."
That's a great use for the cross-domain rel=canonical. But this is much more a user experience and a branding experience issue than it is a technical SEO one, because both of these work pretty darn well.
Then the last issue I'll cover today are around some of this content and link optimization stuff is: What if you've got multiple websites all linking back to your main site, and you're wondering does that or would that help my SEO? I can't tell you how many folks, surprisingly even folks who are very savvy, who have done lots of other stuff in the technical and web development worlds, are thinking about this from a SEO perspective.
I can understand where it comes from. Basically, you have this understanding that more links is a good thing and that more link diversity is a good thing. So you think to yourself, "Hey, maybe I can capture more links and more link diversity by having more slightly different websites. I want to keep my main site all about one particular topic or one particular niche of that topic, and I want to have these other niche sites that maybe I have some great domain names in my portfolio or some really brandable ones. Maybe I've picked up some old domain names that I've bought, or I've bought entire properties outright. So what I'm going to do is I'm just going to add a site-wide link or many links from these pages all back over to my main site."
What you're hoping is that this will amplify your ranking signals and amplify your opportunity. The opposite is true. In fact, what's happening is you're creating a barrier for the full link equity for brand, user and usage data signals, and any potential social signals. You're creating a barrier that's stopping some of those things from passing fully here.
Let's just imagine that you've got four links over here, and they are all pointing to mysubsite1.com, which you're then thinking, "That's great. That's exactly what I wanted to have happen, and now mysubsite1 is pointing to my main site." You're actually losing most of the link equity, the value, the ranking power that would be passed if only two or three of these links had linked directly over to your main site.
As we talked about with the subdomain/subfolder issue, by collecting all of the ranking signals on one sub and root domain, you create the best possible benefit. This concept of domain authority -- I don't necessarily mean the number in Moz's Mozscape Index -- the concept of domain authority is that basically as a domain becomes more popular, as it inherits all of these ranking signals, could come from links, from visibility, from branding, user and usage data, all the kinds of signals that a domain inherits, it passes those on to all of its different pages. But it doesn't pass them on to other sites.
That's true for each of these as well. They're inheriting signals that they're not fully passing on here. I'd recommend that you 301 redirect all of these and have one main site. It simplifies a bunch of your work and streamlines it. It lets you focus on building this one brand. Branding is so powerful today and online visibility as a whole, not to mention SEO, that this is really a best practice.
I would get rid of those subsites as best you can. There are still reasons sometimes to have a microsite or a different website for branding purposes, or if you're going to sell that site separately, or if it's a completely different team working on it. But from an SEO perspective, everything on one sub and root is really ideal.
All right everyone, look forward to the comments, and we will see you again next week for another edition of Whiteboard Friday. Take care.
Rand - I love Whiteboard Friday. I don't catch them all, and I've certainly been more of a lurker lately than an active participant in the discussion boards, but this video is just the greatest thing since the creation of electricity or the discovery of lingerie. There is zero fluff in this video, there is nothing here that does not apply to the ENTIRE internet, there is nothing where you have to have a major brand or a ginormous social following for this advice to apply.
They should show this in churches, it should be added to high school curriculums, after sex, instead of grabbing a smoke your lover should show you this video on their iPad to express the power of cross-domain canonicals. If more people knew these simple concepts the internet would see so much more success, and I literally die a little inside every time a multi-million dollar VC funded startup explains to me why it's okay that their blog is on a sub-domain.
I'm thrilled to see you guys retouch on something so important, and you completely nailed the delivery, the content, and the weight of these factors. You also did it in a single shot? Just so impressed, I had to comment.
Two questions:
1) Can I have whatever was in your coffee this morning?
2) Why has it been so long since you've written for Moz? Would love to see another YouMoz in the queue from you!
There was Adderall in my coffee this morning, minus the coffee.
I'll give you the true answer about YouMoz contributions - we've been busy. The power of contributing a blog to Moz that gets promoted to the main blog is huge, and it has kept us very busy, both in "hey I saw your blog on Moz and I wanted to ask you..." e-mails and just the SEO power of the post itself. It's probably bad Karma that I haven't written another...
I promise, I'll be in your queue soon, and I *always* share the Adderall.
While I'm sad we're getting less ImageFreedom, I'm thrilled to hear that the Moz blog contributions have helped you get business!
Wanted to add a link to Timo Reitnauer's blog post: SEO Penalties of Moving Our Blog to a Subdomain which is worth a read. Also - while the title uses the phrases "SEO Penalties" I think Timo means that more colloquially. There's no specific search engine penalty, it's just the "penalty" of getting less traffic by virtue of losing the domain's inherent authority.
Also - John Doherty at Hotpads generally shared the results of moving their blog from a subdomain to subfolder.
Rand, I know from experience moving content to subdomains may have negative impact but what about starting your website on subdomain?
We've built "cluster" sites for several of our hotel clients. One, in particular, has been a pain to deal with, but it's mostly because of the site design.
~Let me start from the beginning... sorry, I rarely ever go from A to Z in order.
For hotels, we've built these 2 different ways:
1. 2 hotels on 1 domain, some page urls are shared with both properties, some are unique to one hotel or another. The site's home page is shared by both hotels.
2. Primary domain is a "portal" of sorts. It's shared by both hotels for local area info, etc. Each hotel itself also has its own subdomain on the site, where the hotel specific pages are.
The benefit of design style 1, you only have 1 domain to deal with -- both "sides" of the site have the benefits of links to the domain. Detractors: Typically only 1 hotel shows in SERP for relevant terms, because that hotel's page is the best page on site for the search term and it outranks the other pages on the domain. (This doesn't apply to map packs -- Google will show both internal hotel pages attached to a map listing in the same pack.)
https://screencast.com/t/PSMtNhMRftt
The benefit of design style 2, you have the option of getting around some of the domain clustering that happens in the SERP sets. That being, instead of only 1 page per domain showing in SERP... I actually get both subdomains and the primary domain for relevant terms.
https://screencast.com/t/oO02x1sNrwDR
I prefer style 2 personally, but it's a lot of work on the technical side.
I have run a tutorial website on a subdomain of my main website since 2006. It ranks pretty well by now (Alexa top 20K). But, the tutorial subdomain is also pretty much "self contained". It does not have that much to do with the rest of the business (at this point).
If you're talking about starting on a subdomain like coolthings.mysite.com or funstuff.mysite.com, that's fine. You can then redirect mysite.com and www.mysite.com to that subdomain and basically make it your canonical home for all content. If, however, you mean using coolthings.blogspot.com or funstuff.wordpress.com, I'd strongly advise against that, because it means you don't fully own/control the platform. Remember what happened with Geocities! :-)
Hi There, I don't know if it helps, but we did the opposite of what is discussed here :
We had several (hundreds) of subdomains, each of them was dedicated to a specific location (like location1.Domain.com). We decided that this had to change and 301 each subdomain to domain.com/location1.
We were pretty confident that the 301 would transfer the authority from the subdomain to the folder BUT the results were terrible : massive ranking losts for the newly created folder pages.
We decided to keep calm, thinking that this would take time until the "juice" would be totally transfered BUT 1 month after the operation, ranking was still decreasing.
After one month, we decided to do a rollback, and MIRACLE, everything went back to normal (we deleted the subdomain to folder 301s and created 301s back from the folder to the subdomains - hope that's clear -)
I still have no definitive answer/explaination about what happened, but I thought I might share the experience here for the people considering doing 301s from subdomains to folders.
There are a lot of factors involved, assuming that everything was done correctly the 301 should have passed the indexed authority to the destination of the 301 AND shared the authority with the root domain, but if something was off about the indexation after the 301s were in place, then that could be what mucked up the whole process. Was there a canonical in place to tell Google definitively what the new destination was? Could there have been a penalty or negative signals associated with the root domain that negatively impacted the migration?
There are just so many factors, and with hundreds of sites it's hard to lock it down to a single cause without more information.
Hey Rand,
Thanks for putting together all this content in a nice easy to digest way. I had a question about the iwantmyname.com move. When I look at that graph it seems traffic was going down pretty significantly before the move. The decline seems to lessen after their move to a subdomain structure. This would seem to me to say the subdomains were actually better than subdirectories for the folks at iwantmyname.com. However you, an expert in the topic, seems to have come to the opposite conclusion so I wanted to see what I'm missing here.
Hi Rand! I know this post is a little old now, but I hope you're still responding to comments! I have a question, we are working on moving our blog from a subdomain to a subfolder, but we still want to keep our Google Analytics stats from the existing blog once we have moved it over to the new structure. Is this possible? If yes, how?
Many thanks!
You should be able to simply maintain the same GA account info and tags and move it to the new domain (but keep the history).
Many thanks for the speedy reply Rand! And excellent post by the way!
Hi again Rand. I spoke to a Google representative, who told me that it's possible to keep the historical data but not under same GA account id. So when viewing the GA data I would only be able to see data from the date of when the subfolder was set up. Any data prior to that would be in another GA account. Is this correct? This doesn't seem to be in line with what you explained earlier.
Something's odd, because we definitely kept our historic traffic when we moved from SEOmoz.org to Moz.com in Google Analytics. Here's an article about how to do it: https://www.cicada-online.com/blog/2012/11/how-to-c...
Something definitely seems odd. Now our agency is saying:
"it is possible to rename or amend a domain/property in GA and keep its existing historical data but what you are trying to do is to transfer the historical data from one property/subdomain to another (which already has its own historical data) which I think is different.
The UK support told me that you will be able to access your historical data within your existing blog GA property (UA-16321402-14) as long as you don’t delete it but that it won’t be possible to transfer your historical data from one property to another."
What they are saying is contradicting what you are saying, so I'm really not sure anymore of how to get around this. We are ready to migrate our blog to the subfolder, but the uncertainty with the analytics is holding us back...
Compleeeeetly agree with all this. We work with lots of sites in Europe, often multi-language (but 1 country), and have tried just about every possible approach at one point or another. The single domain approach is so much more powerful over subdomains and multi-domains. It is also offers other (non SEO) advantages:
There are two times when I have seen multidomains working well:
@Mike Fitzpatrick
If only I had known this before and learned from other people's mistakes. But on the other hand this is such a fun "experimental" industry
Glad to hear you've had success with the multiple site approach to different countries. While a few sites, most prominently, Wikipedia, have done well with the subdomain model, I'm still partial to ccTLDs most of the time for brands targeting multiple countries (Amazon, Google, etc). I have been impressed with some other companies using a single domain (Uber, e.g. https://www.uber.com/cities/berlin), too.
Hi Rand, thank you for another great Whiteboard Friday. I’ve learned just about everything I know of SEO from the Moz guides and the Whiteboard Fridays, so I’m really grateful for the awesome stuff you guys do at Moz!
If you have a moment, I would really appreciate your opinion on a specific case:
We’re bootstrapping a start-up, currently in one language, and will be expanding into another 3 within the next few months. We own all the ccTLD’s for the specific countries, but could also use folder-structure on the existing .com domain (we’re not considering sub-domains). So we’re at a strategic fork in the road:
So the million dollar question is:
Do ccTLD’s have such significant local ranking benefits in the long term, that it is worth it to accept the initial 6 months in Google’s “sandbox” and the effort of building 4 domain authorities instead of 1?
IMO, it's all about what you're trying to accomplish with the ccTLDs, how relatively localized the keywords you're chasing, and the search intent you're after. For example, if you perform many of the queries you want to rank for and see that pages from the same domains are ranking over and over, and localization doesn't seem to be a huge factor, I'd keep it all on one domain. If, however, those queries all have very localized, unique sites ranking for them, with little to no overlap, and sites outside the geo struggle to rank, I'd pursue the ccTLDs.
Actionable and clear. Thanks a million Rand!
Hi Rand,
these questions you present today are very very very (and very) common in International SEO, so I'll give here my answers here focusing them on that facet of SEO.
1) Domain vs SubDomain.
Depends. As you yourself said, it may happens that for certain very complicated technical environments (i.e.: stores with hundred thousands or even millions products), it is safer using a subdomain. But there are others reasons that may oblige to use a subdomain, some that are usually forgotten by SEOs, as legal reasons (i.e.: some products may have a different legislation in different countries).
Said that, if yours is a multicountry strategy, then the real question starts to be: subdomains or territorial domain names? Quite probably the correct answer would be: cTlds.
2) 301 vs crossdomain rel="Canonical".
In general terms I consider that 301 is somehow safer:
On the other hand, when it comes to International SEO, the only answer is: cross domain rel="Canonical", and for obvious reasons. If I have a site targeting UK, and if it is substantially a clone of the one targeting US, but with very tiny differences like currencies et al, I cannot 301 the UK site to US, but I should eventually use the cross domain canonical.
And here is the classic question: How to correctly use the cross domain canonical and the hreflang tag?
My answers (but the International SEO community presents also others opinions, and the discussion is quite open and interesting) are:
Remember: rel="canonical" and hreflang serve two different purposes, and should not be confused one each other.
3) Using "domains" for creating a link profile base.
I usually discourage this tactic. Sincerely, that is not that different that creating a web ring which is also uber easy to detect for Google. In fact, I saw many legit blog networks being hit for that reason too.
In International SEO things are a little bit different, because it is a "tradition" to link to the other countries/languages version of the site from the header or the footer.
In this case, paraphrasing what Matt Cutts once told in a video, Google usually tend to not penalize those links, or even it may not consider them. Said that, Matt Cutts was also saying that a better solution would be creating a "language selector or country selector" page, which is linked as internal page from the header or the footer.
Remember, then, that that country selector page can be also used as href of the x-default hreflang.
This is a detailed response from Gianluca, but I have a real life example of a multinational & multi-lingual business, rather than just theory, when following some of this advice would be incorrect and would have harmed our business.
Points of note:
"if yours is a multicountry strategy, then the real question starts to be: subdomains or territorial domain names? Quite probably the correct answer would be: cTlds."
Could you elaborate what this is based on? I work in-house for a multinational which had a mixture of subdomains ans ccTLDs. I made the decision to bring all of this under one website all in a sub-folder country & language format using hreflangs.
The result of this was no loss of organic traffic where we moved away country websites on a ccTLD, and a significant increase in traffic in the countries where we moved away from the sub-folder of the root domain. It also mitigates the need for cross-domain rel canonicals.
I would say though that this strategy would be different for everyone, not least depending on your global business priorities, your IT capabilities and how your site is linked to around the world to name but a few. There is no one correct answer here, not even "quite probably" a single vision of the truth.
Could you also further explain this please:
Google is quite good in recognizing that even the content between both URLs is 99% identical, that 1% of difference is giving to the content of those pages a unique value, therefore they cannot be considered as "identical".
I'm not sure if there is a language-barrier issue with your comment here, because that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. e.g. A page with 200 words which only has 2 different words isn't duplicate content?! I think though I may be mis-reading the point you are trying to make here.
Ah! Your comment confirms what I was saying about the open debates in this area of International SEO.
Said that, probably I was not able to make me understand.
1) About subdomain and cCtlds.
I was specifically talking about the case when you - for any given reason - cannot move to a subfolder (which in certain cases I know its the best solution). In that case, and if you have a multicountry strategy, than its better using a cCtld than a subdomain. And that is for many reasons:
2) About the second point (Google is quite good in recognizing that even the content between both URLs is 99% identical...). I was talking about differences like currencies, local phone numbers and not just "two-words" changing. In this last case those two words are not adding value specific and relevant to the country, but in case of currencies - for instance - indeed it is a relevant albeit tiny difference, and Google counts it.
On the other hand, that's also one of the cases Google suggest the hreflang for:
Rel canonical should not be use but for URLs with 100% matching content (or this is should be its use, accordingly to its own prescriptions), but, yes, if you don't want to run any risk you can cross-canonicalized also those kind of pages, but in this case the risk are others:
Thanks for clarifying
Hey Gianluca!
1) Totally agree. I like ccTLD best (e.g. Tripadvisor), although, as I noted above, there are companies having success with all content on a single domain, too (e.g. Uber)
2) We've seen rel=canonical be respected and treated mostly as a 301 with rare exception. If you've got some examples, would love to see 'em. I do agree that 301 is more powerful, but when you need the content accessible in both places, canonical's the only way to go.
3) Agree that international versions of a site is an exception to the "don't link to your main site from a bunch of others" rule. It's the right thing to do for visitors (who may wish to change language/location), and therefore, the search engines respect it, too.
Rand, it's a great video-post, really. I think the same, the better for SEO is a subdomain.
We have all the things (products, blog, contents) on a sub... Thanks.
Hi Rand,
What about subfolders versus subdomains when it's not specific to a blog. For example, I have a client with 50 practices throughout the country. I would assume that a subdomain would be best for them, to they can develop the root domain with franchise, and general information, which each location can capitalize on a microsite, while hopefully strengthening the domain as a whole.
I also have another client with 6 locations all throughout the atlanta area- for them, i reccomended a subfolder where the landing pages for each of their local citation will end on example.com/marietta-ga etc.
I'm just second guessing myself, and wanted to ensure my logic.
-Kristin Miller
P.S. Great talk about Moz Local Advanced, Hope you liked the Jameson!
The last thing you want to do for a franchise is segregate the sites onto sub-domains because then they don't benefit from the authority of the main site. 50 Sub-Domains would be almost equivalent to creating 50 unique URLs and you would have to build links and create authority for every single one of those sub-domain sites.
You are 100% right to suggest sub-folder. The only time you would use a sub-domain, under SEO best practices, is if the topic you're putting on the sub-domain has nothing to do with the main site, which is pretty rare. It's for cases like username.wordpress.com where the site is truly its own unique site.
Use a subdomain...
You're less likely to have your results "clustered" by Google and only 1 served up in the SERPs.
Marriott is a prime example. Unlike Hilton, which uses subdomains for their hotel brands, Marriott does not and uses folders.
In the top 100 SERP results for any given city, you're typically only going to find 1 marriott . com result, but you'll see several for the Hilton properties.
https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/60805...
Point being, site design can reduce your chance of having multiple results in the SERP set. I've seen this happen most with folders -- but do what ever works best for your vertical.
Very interesting topic today Rand.
One area of interest in particular is the use of cross domain use of rel canonical. We have partners all over the world and we are always righting up case studies for them to use on their site, mainly because they don't have the internal resources to do this.
One partner in particular who is based in Australia and has a client in Alice Springs (It has to be our remotest client on the planet, though I do have one sitting on the top of Norway!). We wanted to let the partner use the content piece on their site, it was agreed that it may be more relevant to Australians than say Norwegians (who knows). Anyway on our primary site we have the same story but the rel canonical is pointing to their version on an Australian TLD.
So we did published this back in September 14 and looking at Google today I'm glad to say that the partner's version of the story is sitting in the SERPs and there is no sign of our copy. This is great as we can lease out our content and let the partner take the benefit and gain national exposure in Australia. But the story does not stop there, we then built German and Spanish versions of the story but refrained from using rel canonical and the outcome of this decision is that as well as the partner's page ranking at the top both the German and Spanish versions rank on the same page but back to our domain.
Here is a link to the search I carried out, I used Google.AU in Incognito Mode.
https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=instantatlas+ninti+one
An interesting point here though is that our DE and ES pages use HREF lang so I am a little curious to know if linking both language versions together like this are being used by Google to serve all language versions from say a brand search.
<link href="/es/Ninti-One.xhtml" rel="alternate" hreflang="es" />
<link href="/de/Ninti-One.xhtml" rel="alternate" hreflang="de" />
So for us Cross Domain/Rel Canonical allows us to make multiple uses of the same content, allowing us to share it with partners who we think will gain a greater benefit in their country. At the same time we gain the brand recognition as the solution provider from the UK but also in our Spanish and German markets.
David
Just asking: why are you using the hreflang for pages that are in different languages (and are not the home page)? I mean, I know it is something Google suggest to do, but if you:
1) targeted the subfolder to Germany (if you're doing multi-country);
2) are using German (or Spanish)
3) were able to make those pages earn some links or even unlinked mentions from local websites (aka: earning external local signal)
then the hrfelang is not really so needed (and that's why the hreflang is URL specific and not sitewide too).
On the other hand, I undestand that the URL is optimized around the product name (Ninti One), so that's the reason of the hreflang use, right?
Hi Gianluca,
Can I just check are you meaning our own home page i.e. .com with /com/de/ & /.com/es ?
We got in to the process of testing HREF lang and taking each case study and translating from English version of it into different languages. So yes the URL is usually optimized to the client brand + our solution + the solution category e.g. ninti-one + instantatlas + interactive mapping. So for instance we want Google to associate the equivalent Spanish page url e.g. ninti-one + instantatlas + mapas interactivos.
Also to note we don't really have a heavy reliance on using HREF lang for our multi-lingual versions it is something we have been testing out since last year. On Google WMTs we do receive a healthy report under 'International Targeting' of alternate URLs in 'en' that have return tags for ES and DE related content. I guess ultimately we are not seeing anything detrimental happening by using it.
Can I just check are you meaning our own home page i.e. .com with /com/de/ & /.com/es ?
Yes, I was meaning that with "home pages".
And I was not saying that using the hreflang is detrimental (if well implemented), simply I was saying that when it comes to same pages but in different languages, the hreflang is not really need but if those same pages are targeting a brand name or brand product name. In those cases the hreflang indeed can be useful, so to avoid the stronger URL (stronger in terms of Page Authority, to use a metric we all know) to outrank the correct geo-targeted one.
Commenting after a long time, but this WBF season definitely deserves few lines here!
Firstly, and again as always, I would like to thank Rand to discussing the most debating topic about subdomain vs Subfolder factors.. Now you have stopped my all searches here!!!!
I have searched a lot about this, but couldn't find such a valid reason why subfolder is highly preferred than subdomain. Even, I was also discussing the same with a client to remove/redirect subdomain to subfolder, glad to found it today here at Moz. You have now resolved my all the queries and confusion whatever I had on these topic
Thumbs Up!
Commenting after a long time, but this WTF season definitely deserves few lines here!
I believe you mean WBF, don't you? LOL
lol..that was a typo error...seriously :( Just rectified!
Thanks Davide.
Exactly Same questions in my mind. I have started some new sub domains to target countries. I will move all to sub folders in future.
We moved part of our site from sub-domain to sub-folder back in November. Almost a 100% increase in organic traffic. (I've tweeted the GA stats should anyone want to see the evidence). No other changes made, no new links of any note. If you want organic traffic it's Hobson's choice.
Would love to see that! Can you share a link to the tweet? :-)
Here's the link to Martin's tweet: https://twitter.com/mpezet/status/563629576858132480
Thanks Dan!
It seems most of the conversation about this WBFriday is about the Subdirectory/Subdomain issue.
I find the micro-site issue still more compelling---and messier than it's presented (Rand, you're awesome).
I'm still finding, for location-based service keywords (such as "Dallas Plumbing", random example), an EMD with a few pages of fresh content will still outrank an authoritative site, with a subdirectory (and even more content, a google plus page, verified listing, etc., etc...)
DallasPlumbing[dot]com beats AuthortyPlumbingSite[dot]com/Dallas-Plumbing 90% of the time on Yahoo and Bing and still about 30% of the time on Google!
I've taken to building EMDs as a defensive measure to make sure nobody else does it and outranks us with little effort. It's a hassle because I'd rather focus exclusively on the authority site and not fuss with the little EMDs. Is anyone else experiencing this?
I'm facing a similar problem as you, although I haven't experienced it directly, I've been gearing up to take on lead generation for local searches and have been trying to figure out exactly how to go about it. From what I can tell, these local low competition, low search keywords (200-500 searches) are loving EMDs with crappy content and terrible optimization, it seems like it's ranking based solely on the EMD and some the right keyword being in the title. It's even getting ranked above the 7 or 3 pack in about 50% of the cases I've noted.
I'd love some advice or clarification on this.
Hi Rand and thanks for all your Whiteboard Friday Videos. They are excellent!
I have been thinking about the thing with sub domains and sub folders for a while.
Google recommends putting static assets (i.e. images) in a cookie less sub domain for a number of reasons including site speed.
How will that affect Google image search?
I mean you still embed the images in your content, but if you put them on a sub domain technically they are not on your domain any longer.
Thanks!
Jonas
Ahh, thanks for covering this again. I love reading the Moz Q&A section both to help out where I can & learn - and these topics always come up.
I have a trickier project where a major brand has a corporate site and separate microsites for their 70+ dealers (not for cars, fyi), all with unique domains & managed by the dealer owners. Each site has about 15 pages, only 5 of which are completely unique to the dealer’s location. The other 10 or so pages are brand-controlled product detail/spec pages that are duplicates across all of the dealer sites - they all sell the same product/service & the spec are fairly technical.
At first, I strongly advocated for everything to be consolidated to the one corporate site with a dealer locator, but that model does not fit the brand + dealer relationship/ structure (similar to a franchise system).
So then there’s this massive duplicate content issue with the 70+ sites having the same product specs that, due to brand restrictions, cannot be rewritten to be unique. The specs are also on the corporate site, so the first thought I had was to point rel canonicals back to the corporate site since it is the originator of the dup content, but that would not help dealer search performance (which is critical for dealer buy-in).
One idea I had was to make all the specs an image (which feels a little wrong & would again not help with SEO) and add unique content blocks to each of these pages. The other idea was to leave all of the specs as indexable (though duplicate) content, also with the unique content block. Neither options seem like the right solution, since the small amount of unique content added would not outweigh the massive amount of dup content. And if left as an image, the small amount of unique content added just wouldn't be enough to gain any traction. Side note - local SEO will be a big part of the dealer site strategy, but we are also looking to drive non-branded organic traffic to these sites. At this point, though, it's seeming like that type of traffic will have to funnel through the corporate site's dealer locator.
One interesting structure I came across was on Costco.com (which I know their SEO came under a lot of fire over the last few years). I noticed a “Product details have been supplied by the Manufacturer, and are hosted by a third party” disclaimer just before all of the product specs. I checked the (text-only) cached version of the page & none of the content below this line of text is being indexed. Any thoughts on this way of dealing with product spec duplicate content? Any advice, affirmation, direction on any of what I shared is hugely appreciated!
Hi Sheena - that's definitely an interesting challenge. My advice would be to consider:
A) Using rel=canonical to point all the duplicate versions of the pages on dealer sites to the original
B) Using an iframe to place that content (much as one does with embedded youtube videos and the like)
C) Using a noindex on the pages that are basically duplicates
I do think it's fine for franchisees to have their own separate domains that link back to the parent company. That's one of the rare cases when that type of structure makes sense and is respected by the engines. Just be aware that Google/Bing/et al likely won't consider the links between the sites in the same way they'd consider external links from outside the companies.
Dear Rand,
Thanks for the clarification. We have been paying & research a lot to get the details on these issues and you seem to have simplified this.
To get further more clarification, I have these below questions.
So, do you think our approach is right? (last part of your video seem to say no, but we are not trying to link each other and get benefit)
Please let me know your thoughts.
Thanks,
This is my question, too.
Hi Rand,
I'm a digital marketing intern for a Dietitian business on the Gold Coast, Australia. The business has an old Australian website: www.portionperfection.com.au and the new website: www.greatideas.net.au.
In the past I have suggested to the owner that we 301 redirect the old site to the new for SEO purposes. After watching your video this has confirmed my suggestion. Although, the businesses current web developer thinks this is a bad idea because the site receives a substantial amount of revenue through referrals from the old site...
Just wondering what the repercussions the redirect could have, and how can I convince the owner that this is the correct decision?
Would greatly appreciate anyones feedback on this forum. Obviously, Rand's would be awesome!
Brodie
If you set up your 301 redirects you will not only pass on the juice from your old site to your new site (which is currently not happening) but all referral links will pass through to the new site without any issue.
As it currently stands, your web developer is basically saying you have to keep the old site (which really does need to be taken down) in place because of those referrals... also keeps a website on the books for that developer. You are not doing the business any sort of service with the old website.
Get the 301 redirects in place on all urls in the old site to their equivalent pages in the new site or to some common page for those links that don't have an equivalent page in the new site.
I would then work on updating those referral links as they undoubtedly don't make use of the best anchor text.
Great Topic Rand, These technical issues can be challenging sometimes. On of the most challenging issue we had once is that an ecommerce website were having 4 variations of links for different countries. Once display $ currency, 2 display PKR currency, 3rd display GPB currency and forth one was for UAE currency. And they all work in a way that user get redirected to specific currency page based on their IP address. Since Google bot was redirecting to $ currency urls because it had US IP so all other links were not getting indexed. So to solve this what we did is that we put the redirection in a way that when a user comes to our site it get redirected to their relevant page and when bot comes to website it do not get redirected.
Hi Nouman - I believe that's within Google's guidelines. You might also check out some of the resources here on Moz about international targeting/location SEO: https://moz.com/blog/category/international
Thank You Rand!
Sub domin is good for any site because we individual handal all sub site.
All sub Site have it's own Rank
SO thanks for This type of google infomation.
We have run some test with 301 vs canonical and the ranking signals were not similar at all. We linked from a single page with same anchor to two url (one with canonical and one with 301) and then we check what url that was ranking. Both times was the url with 301...
I believe the 301 situation is of course ideal, but a cross-domain canonical tag should be used in a situation where you want the user to still be able to access the content on the second site.
That is right, but, on the other hand, it is easier to show something different to users and Search Engines with the canonical.
The test was made 2 weeks ago just to check that...
That sounds like what we'd expect - the 301 is a stronger signal than a rel=canonical. However, we've noticed rel=canonical behaving very well in situations where one would like a particular version ranking and both versions available, as per David Carey's example above.
Very helpful article! Thanks for sharing.
But I have to ask if it is still true that SEO benefits from moving blog.example.com to example.com/blog ?
Great post. It's funny how often times the basics and need to be reconsidered and re evaluated.
Hi Rand,
Interesting post. We recently moved 6 sub-domains into a single domain with directories
college.subdomain.com -> domain/college/
Before the move each on of the College sites had their own link juice and ranking in SERPS
However moving into a single domain has had a negative effect on the SERPS for each of the college campuses.
My question is if you need the directory folders to have their own ranking, as Google will now choose the most canonical result across the whole site, meaning results which were previous showing up in SERPS are now omitted, is subdomains the only answer?
Thanks Howie
Thanks, Rand! This was a perfect explanation on using sub folders for blogs. This whiteboard was so timely for us! Thanks.
Fantastic post, thank you!!! The third part of your video helps with the issue we've been struggling with, the question of combining 5 different sites/brands we have into one larger site. I'm wondering, however, if there is a way to get the best of both worlds. Can I combine the 5 sites into our main site as subfolders, yet keep the other domain name by pointing it at the subfolder? I currently do this in some cases with 301 redirects, but then that domain isn't indexed. Can I have for example https://www.PCtab.com and https://www.ComputerSecurity.com/pctab both pointing at the same place so a user can get to it either through the navigation of the main site or via the branded domain name? Will Google count that as duplicate content even though it isn't two different pages, it's just two URL's pointing at the same page?
Great info! Unfortunately, creating a subfolder is not an option for me because the site structure won't support what we need to do (and the client won't allow changes to the structure). So, my only choices are mycampaignsite.com OR mycampaignsite.brandsite.com.
Either way, I'll be creating one or more vanity URLs with 301 redirects for use in print/traditional ads.
From an SEO perspective, it sounds like you are saying theses are basically the same. Is that right?
If your primary domain is brandsite.com, mycampaignsite.brandsite.com is still better than an entirely new root domain like mycampaignsite.com. You'll at least have a shot of sharing some of the authority value between the two.
Rand - I enjoyed the whiteboard and, as always, your presentation is stellar. I noticed something you do here on Moz that confuses me based upon the strategy for keeping content on a subdirectory/folder versus a subdomain. Personally I like to put my "lower quality" content not likely to be optimal for search results in subdomains. It's easier to manage and it also seems to follow the logic of what you're saying -- keeping all the content you have (assuming it's what you think is quality) above a single domain maximizes results.That seems to be the easy question to answer.
Looking at this site for community member profiles in the index, I didn't expect to find this. The meta descriptions suggest that this is not the kind of content you'd want indexed along with all the great stuff on this site. I'd either put this type of content on a subdomain (if technically feasible, don't know the case here) or noindex these since it would seem to be adding a multitude of thin content to your big bucket of quality. I usually place "convenience but likely not high quality" type content on subdomains, such as directories or user profiles which can be thin and thus bringing you closer to a Panda issue. I'd enjoy hearing your strategy in the treatment of buckets of middling quality / duplicate content using subdomains.
I was always in favor of using a subdirectory in the parent domain. Although I sometimes doubt entered in my, for he view several very well positioned subdomains.. Fortunately I was always right. Great post!
Yep. What Rand said. We've done it at the most Enterprise of Enterprise sites and there's *always* a traffic boost when moving back to sub-folders.
Hi Rand, This is the first time I've viewed your Whiteboard and really enjoyed the format and information.
One question regarding subdomains that seems to elude me:
We use a 3rd party software to provide marketing automation for ourselves and our clients. As such, landing pages reside on a subdomain of the primary domain. After researching and watching this I am concerned we are doing a disservice to ourselves and our clients by setting up targeted landing pages on this subdomain for email, SEM, direct mail and any other marketing tool designed to capture interest and convert leads?
Since there is not an alternative, how do we effectively use the subdomain without negatively affecting their primary domain and SEO investments?
Ok, so I am building a site that will have great content, and I also want to add a business directory. I am thinking that the directory will be "thin" content, it might drag down the rest. So, in this case, should I set up a sub-directory directory.mysite.com/state/city ? or www.mysite.com/directory/state/city
Thanks all!
Great info! Unfortunately, creating a subfolder is not an option for one of my projects because the site structure won't support what we need to do (and the client won't allow changes to the structure). So, my only choices are mycampaignsite.com OR mycampaignsite.brandsite.com.
Either way, I'll be creating one or more vanity URLs with 301 redirects for use in print/traditional ads.
From an SEO perspective, it sounds like you are saying theses are basically the same. Is that right?
When you create a second URL or use a sub-domain you are separating the content, so from an SEO perspective your client is going to lose a LOT of the potential value. Using a Vanity URL will not add that value back in, it simply makes it easier for someone to access content from an offline medium like a print flyer.
Thanks for the video Rand has answered a few questions
Hi All -- first time posting in Moz, Great to be here.
I became webmaster on a clients website for a small pharmaceutical start up. They have a 4 flagship medicines that are FDA approved, and that we market separately from the main brand, like maybe Pfizer markets itself and maybe one of it's meds like Celebrex. or what have you. The products are not strong enough to merit their own minisite, but I've been making sure to get the .com, .org, and .net for each of our product names.
In this case people search for their medication, and not the maker. Like they look for Advil, not for the Pfizer. But then Pfizer doesn't need the promotional boost anymore since their brand recognition is strong.
So we are small, and want to make sure that if folks search for us, or for the medicine, they know we make it.
Currently, we have little 4 page minisites for our products with brand name urls. www.product1.com and product2.com. They get a teeny little bit of traffic each month. My predecessor set them up. Since they get little traffic I'm thinking of merging them with the big site as subdomains.
I notice that some companies out there use subdomains for sub brands. But then some use sub folders. Then some use whole separate little websites.
I'm not sure which way to go. I want to make sure Brand awareness, SEO and overally neatness are sort of engineered in to the network going forward. I have an opportunity now to fix stuff before we go too far.
So I have 3 options.
1. One Brand site www.ourbrand.com and create a separate www.product1.com, www.product2.com, etc site for each product. Pfizer etc seem to do that but seems unnecessary.
2. Create the products as subdomains to the main brand so they are nominally linked for customers search engines.
product1.ourbrand.com, product2.ourbrand.com, and as we create new products I can just make new subdomains.
I'm not good at redirection stuff, but I would imagine I can redirect the www.product1.com to the product1.brn
3. for the subdomains I can either use a multisite or separate installs.
My host won't allow installing wordpress in a sub folder, so that sort of makes that decision for me because I don't want to move hosts.
It makes sense to me to do it as a multisite, and make each brand a subdomain and thus semi separate website. Each is not big enough to merit it's own website.
Anyone please chime in. I think there's an elegance in using sub domains, but maybe not best idea for Google.
Thanks
Mark
Hi Mark! Welcome to Moz. :) This question may be better suited to our Q&A forum, which is specifically intended for folks to get help. If you ask there, you should be able to get some insight.
Just getting into SEO so forgive my ignorance. Your site has been extremely helpful. My question:
Higher Education sites often have department specific or school specific sites bc users want to control their own content and brand. Our institution is structured using Wordpress multi-sites. So if I'm understanding this, dept1.school.edu is less effective than school.edu/dept1/ -- if /dept1/ is a Wordpress multi-site sub-directory install, is this relevant to a search engine? Thoughts on best way to structure this?
Great video - Thanks!
Is their any limit of using subdomains?
Hello Rand!
Thank you so much for sharing this worth reading!I love the way you used to explain your experience and knowledge..I much appreciate the topic...
Question!
I have my own eCommerce website and i put content on www.xyz.com/blog is this good or no.. I need your kind suggestion!
Waiting for your kind response Rand!
Rand, Thanks for such a great post. I have been a fan for sometime now and have learnt almost everything on SEO from you.
I have a small query; we are running our blog on a subdomain which runs Wordpress. We are getting nice social signals and links on the subdomain. However, getting links on the subdomain might be useless so we have replicated the entire subdomain in a subdirectory (which has all read only pages). And we have made the subdomain point to the subdirectory through rel canonical.
I have a doubt regarding whether the link equity and social signals pass on to the main domain from subdomain through this approach. The optimal way of doing this is to cleanly do everything in subdirectory but that is not possible due to technical hurdles.
Regards
Deepak Jain
Hey Rand...
I have a network of sites that are part of the same general niche (however focused on different areas) 2 of these websites have been around a long time and do ok in the search engines, but I just don't have the time or resources to manage them. I am thinking about doing a 301 redirect of these sites to my newest site that encompasses both those sites areas so I can manage only 1 site instead of 3. Is this a sound strategy even though I would be redirecting 2 more powerful domains to a much newer site?
Very interesting video. Really nice explanation, sounds easier than it is hehe.
great article..
Hi Rand, Thanks for your great explanation about common issues of SEO. I want to ask one question that, if I have eCommerce website which has tons of products and if I want to prevent duplicate content issue as my website and it's products are opened with www version and without www version. So which technique I need to apply for my eCommerce website, either canonical or 301 redirection?
Hi Rand,
currently we run a well-performing (good rankings, lots of traffic etc.) blog under a subdomain. A little effect on the main domain can be seen as well.
We are now wondering, whether the expected SEO-effect on our root domain is worth the risk for our blog (even if all 301-redirects are implemented correctly, there is always a risk of losing a little bit of domain trust in this process) to switch it from blog.domain.com to domain.com/blog?
I ve discussed this issue already with a lot of people, most of them say: "Never change a running system!".
Articles and cases in the web I ve read so far, almost always only refer to cases (like the one you presented in the video), when a blog was moved from a folder to a subdomain or the writers don't say whether the blog was well-performing before the switch.
What do you think?
Many thanks for your help in advance!
Great stuff, but do you have any resources/tutorials to show step-by-step how to effectively move everything from the subdomain to a subfolder? Also, for large multi-country sites like ours, wouldn't this bury content in an extra subfolder and therefore have it be seen as less valuable? (chile.voyhoy.com/blog would now be voyhoy.com/blog/chile)
We have a few hundred pages and thousands of images. We use Wordpress on a subdomain of our main site and have some posts with hundreds of shares and 100K+ page views in just a few months. Would there be any other consequences of a move like losing these nice tallies or being seen by google as less relevant for country specific search engine searches?
Thanks for the advice!
Probably also important to note that our content and product on the root domain is specifically dedicated to bus tickets, while our blog has a much wider focus of all sorts of tourism info. If we move the blog to a subfolder instead of the subdomain won't that water down our root folder's relevancy to bus tickets? If top google rankings are largely determined by strong relevancy + authority + user metrics, our blog will help with the second two but hurt the relevancy of the site as a whole.
Rand, I have learned, that blog.mywebsite.com is worst then mywebsite.com/blog/. Other staff I somehow find out during my SEO life, its all true :) Thx for a great presentation.
Hi Rand. In a situation where you might be syndicating another author's RSS feed articles (with their permission, not scraping), would it be advisable or mandatory to set the rel=canonical to the original? And, what would be the consequences of making the wrong call?
Hi Fish, if the site is a multilingual one, subfolder is still a better choice? For multilingual sites, subdomain makes it possible to host the websites in different targeted countries.
I have now watched this video for the third time, and have to post in response... It's just great. The rel=canonical feature is exactly what I was looking for in justification to a cross-domain strategy whilst retaining brand search. Perfect stuff, I'll be sure to reply with how the migration goes in a few weeks time :)
Thanks for the lesson! Taking notes.
Nice white glasses by the way!
Hey everyone, I heard that if I want to promote my homepage for a specific keyword, then I should use it in anchor text within the content of my subdomain (www.domain.com/blog or www.domain.com/blog/page1) and the link of that anchor must point to a page somehting like www.domain.com/page and then a link from that "page" to my homepage (www.domain.com) using similar anchor that contain the keyword. If I use that method and create 30 or 40 inter-links like that then my homepage (www.domain.com) will rank higher in SERP for that keyword. I am new to SEO and I am afraid because it seems a kind of black hat technique or unethical. What would you guys suggest? BTW my aim is to rank my homepage higher for a specific keyword.
Hi,
I'm looking at setting up a WordPress Multi Site presence for a new client that has a number of separate sports venues in one Australian state. I've been looking at either setting up using sub domains or sub folders and the pros/cons of that from a technical and seo point of view.
The main corporate website will be www.actionindoorsportsqld.com.au. That will have the main corporate info for the business. Then there are various arenas around the state such as:
Brisbane
Ipswich
Mackay
Townsville
etc
Each website will have it's own content, but very similar in nature, using the same WordPress template and just changing some of the ccontent on each site.
Am I best to use subdomains i.e.
brisbane.actionindoorsportsqld.com.au
ipswich.actionindoorsportsqld.com.au
etc
or
actionindoorsportsqld.com.au/brisbane
actionindoorsportsqld.com.au/ipswich
I've been doing some research including watching this video on Moz.com and I'm not sure which way to go.
Obviously using WordPress Multi Site, each site instance can have its own SEO setup, and that SEO is independent from the main site, despite it being in a subfolder format.
Hopefully others in here have been over the same hurdle and have some great advice on this.
Cheers,
Jason.
Hi Jason!
Thanks for your question! To be honest, you're really unlikely to get an answer to this sort of thing in comments on a blog post, especially one this old. You're much more likely to get some good advice in our Q&A forum. :)
Good luck!
Hi Rand,
I have a shop set up on a separate site to my main site.
If I set up subdomain eg shop.mydomain.com forwarded that to the shop site, would that help SEO? Would Google then see it as part of my main website?
Thanks!
That would have literally zero impact on SEO. As long as your shop does not live on your main domain, and that doesn't mean in a sub-domain, then you will not be sharing in the authority from being part of your main domain and main website. Pointing a sub-domain to your online store wouldn't change the URL of the online store, it would just essentially be adding a vanity URL to help you get there - Google wouldn't even notice or care.
Hi, I know that this an old discussion, but it's relevance is pretty much intact.
If you can't migrate from subdomain to subfolder, would a 301 redirect from a subfolder to a subdomain help in any way to minimize the negative impact of using subdomains?
e.g.
www.domain.com/blog redirected to blog.domain.com
That would have zero impact. What matters is the URL that is ultimately indexed and set in Google as the search result. A 301 can pass link authority, if the sub-folder you are forwarding had any - but it sounds like you want to just create it purely for this, so believe me if it was that simple this entire article wouldn't be necessary.
Come to think of it, a sub-folder URL that you create purely to 301 wouldn't even be noticed by Google, let alone would it have any impact, because Google would only see the 301 if they tried to index the sub-folder, but since nothing points to it why would their spiders even go there?
You're looking for a loophole. There isn't one
Great to get a clear picture on such a seemingly small, but important nuance. I've run the subdomain structure before and always felt like I was spreading our work/impact thin.
Have a quick question to the community though -- I was advised that conversion point landing pages should never only be on root domains (e.g. domain.com/landingpage), but should be maintained in separate sub-folders (e.g. domain.com/try/landingpagename).
Their explanation of why was quite spotty, but mentioned that it was preferable to keep main pages only (product, press, etc.) on the root domain.
We are looking to develop and maintain 2 blogs, one in English and one in Spanish. Would that be better (a) to run 2 blogs under our single .com domain (mysite.com/en/blog and mysite.com/es/blog) or (b) to keep just one in English mysite.com/blog and to use a different domain to blog in Spanish adding rel canonical to tell the search engines we are the owner of that content? If you say option (b) is best, what url should those rel canonical point to?
Thanks you Rand, very interesting post!
We are bootstrapping our home maintenance services business in Europe and I was wondering if you could help us to figure out what would be the best practice when it comes to choosing the website url structure.
ASSUMPTIONS
1. We will be offering the service in 5 major European City (Paris, London, Glasgow, Madrid and Barcelona)
2. Content for each "city_page" initially will be almost the same, except for a few keywords (name of the city, testimonial name and little more). [ QUESTION_2: If google considers that to be duplicated content, how can we avoid it will negatively affect us? ]
3. We will be localize the entire web into 3 languages: EN, FR and ES.
4. We can afford to maintain only 1 (the .com) domain.
MAIN QUESTION_1: What's the best OPTION to boost our Domain Authority (well, to get organic traffic)?
OPTION A (please note there is no simple ".com" web. I mean, if you visit mysite.com you will be redirected to mysite.com/en)
mysite.com/en/ (our generic home page, where you will find business description and links to our "cities")
mysite.com/fr/
mysite.com/es/
paris.mysite.com/en/ (to offer the service to english speaking people living in Paris)
paris.mysite.com/fr/
paris.mysite.com/es/
london.mysite.com/en/
london.mysite.com/es/
london.mysite.com/fr
...
OPTION B
mysite.com/en/ (our generic home page, where you will find business description and links to our "cities")
mysite.com/fr/
mysite.com/es/
mysite.com/en/paris/
mysite.com/fr/paris/
mysite.com/es/paris/
...
OPTION C
en.mysite.com
fr.mysite.com
es.mysite.com
en.mysite.com/paris/
fr.mysite.com/paris/
es.mysite.com/paris/
...
OPTION D_1 (same as option A but here we chose English as preferred language.. I mean, there is no EN subfolder!)
mysite.com
mysite.com/fr/
mysite.com/es/
paris.mysite.com
paris.mysite.com/fr/
paris.mysite.com/es/
london.mysite.com
london.mysite.com/es/
london.mysite.com/fr
...
OPTION D_2 (same as option B but here we chose English as preferred language.. I mean, there is no EN subfolder!)
mysite.com
mysite.com/fr/
mysite.com/es/
mysite.com/paris (to offer the service to english speaking people living in Paris)
mysite.com/fr/paris/
mysite.com/es/paris/
...
OPTION D_3 (same as option C but here we chose English as preferred language.. I mean, there is no EN subfolder!)
mysite.com
fr.mysite.com
es.mysite.com
mysite.com/paris/
fr.mysite.com/paris/
es.mysite.com/paris/
...
OPTION E
any other combination we have not considered. If so, please help! :)
[ Last question, please. I am aware after I'll get question_1 answered, this question will be simplified.. however I would rather prefer to ask it now, so I don't have to make any follow-up question later on. Thanks for your understanding! ]
QUESTION_3: Where in the folder structure should we place internal pages? Let's say we have a pricing-page to place into the url. Is it better to place it:
(a) as a subdomain (for instance: pricing.mysite.com/en/paris/ )
(b) before the LANGUAGE (for instance: mysite.com/pricing/en/paris/ )
(c) between the LANGUAGE and the CITY (for instance: mysite.com/en/pricing/paris/ )
(d) after the CITY (for instance: mysite.com/paris/pricing/en/ )
(e) at the very end (for instance: mysite.com/en/paris/pricing/ )
(f) any other combinations?
Thanks Rand for your great job. Just have one question about the content in most forums. Which tends to be low quality .specially in nontechnical forums such fitness, cocking, movies etc. They are fill up with images, poor keywords and short length articles. So If put the forum in main directory, isn’t that will hurt you overall ranking?
Informative... Thank you :)
You answered the exact question I was looking for its answer, thanks man!
Really really helpful.
Thanks so much.
Thank you very much for this great info thought it's confusing as Matt Cutts always says the oposite of what people say or think. Still, I have a question with regards to the third part of the video—the micro sites. We had a legal dispute and had to come up with a new brand name as well as creating an entirely new domain—we took it as an opportunity to renovate the web and even the product line. We get rid of all the stock of the old brand so we don't sell it anymore but we're keeping the domain with all the legacy content except that now it's showing a banner that says something like "hey we moved to a new site", so in essence the legacy domain can be considered as a microsite. The old domain ranks very well but the new one is now raking fairly well, both are raking in the 1st page of Google.
Now... 301 or not, that's the question. The old domain has far more links from other sites than the new site so is the old domain creating the barrier you mention to the new domain? in fact the old domain are actually two domains as we had one domain for each product version. Kill me if you want to but it made sense for reasons other than SEO—now the two products are under the same domain, the new domain.
The fact that both domains are raking in the 1st page steels Google real estate to our competition which is something to take into consideration.
PS: I'd love to spam you with my website but I prefer to not disclose it.
Planet hosters offer unlimited hosting like lots of others. I noticed that unlimited domains didn't mean real domains since they are installed in the same folder as /public_html so your main site iand domain is inside public_html and the others are not. They appear in the subdomain category list. Does such practice affect SEO since Subdomains have nothing to do with main domain site?
Was just going to create a subdomain for my site and realized WOW, glad I read this! Thank you! Trying to rank for "escape room los angeles" I am currently stuck on page 2. Would you reccomend a /los-angeles subfolder page even though I only have ONE location?
Hi Hundemat, this would be a great question to ask in our Q&A if you're looking for a little advice from expert SEOs -- older blog posts like this don't often get much visibility. Thanks! :)
I just watched this video. I have 2 questions. Is the content still relevant, Rand? And second. I usually set up a sub domain for membership sites. Of course I don't want the content of a membership site show up in Google's search results, BUT would the website benefit from it when I would setup the membership site as a sub folder of the website and just tell teh membership software that the website content is public content visible for anyone?
Great article ...Thanks for posting!
I found this while searching for the best SEO practice for having dedicated content under a sudomain ...or a subfolder ...pros n cons.
I am managing a website for a real estate company and they want to give emphasis on their new approach to 'property management'. New content will be uploaded, new looks and ways of presentation are required ...so we decided to build a new website dedicated to Property Management.
Some questions:
1. What is best for SEO purposes ...to build it under a subdomain of their main site (a Wordpress site which ranks well for most related phrases) i.e. www.property-management.main-site.com
...or build it under a subfolder/subdirectory. i.e. www.main-site.com/property-management
2. In the case of subfolder, since we will go with WP again...to my understanding, this means that I will have to make a new installation of WP under a subdirectory of the main installation ...right?
> Under the main installation folder I will have to create a new folder named 'property-management' ...and make another WP installation in there.
I am just wondering if this is the right way ...to have a WP installation within another WP installation.
3. In your article you make it clear that it is better to keep things in a subfolder ...especially if there are multiple microsites, or the ranking side-effects of moving from subdomain to subfolder and vice versa. ...but I am not sure what is the case when making a new (second) site from scratch ...what is better to go with.
Any advice is welcomed.
Many kind thanks.
Hi Rand, great post! Pity that I only chanced on it about a year and a half later.
Two burning questions that I'll really appreciate if you could assist with:
1. Very compelling notes on how a subdomain may potentially affect SEO. The thing is that we are stuck with using a sub-domain for our blog as it is hosted on a different host site (wordpress.org) than the actual site (hosted on Pagecloud). In this case, how can we redirect, point or edit the url such that our blog url can be https://www.domain.com/blo instead of https://blog.domain.com as it currently is now?
2. If I have a few different domains (e.g. www.domain.com, www.domain.co and www.domain.co.uk), and I'm currently pointing the .co and .co.uk domains to my main domain (.com), will it still have any adverse impact on SEO?
New to the Moz community here and I must say that your content have caught my eye. Hope you'd be able to see this and assist me with my queries :)
Hi friend,
Our Q&A forum is a great place to ask specific questions like this. Also to search it and see if others have asked similar questions in the past. Thanks!
Got it, will forward this question to the Q&A forum :) Thanks Erica!
Great Article,
But I am little bit confused on one thing.
Is it possible to have several links of sub domain on every page of main domain?
E.g If a user searches any query on main domain a link to sub domain is also there for his query Is it possible? And dose it make any affect on SEO.
Thank you
Hi Moz, I have a website that my company has issued me without access to the DNS server i pay an amount each month for hosting but do not own. This is a unique name domain example www.mycompanyname.theircompanyname.com. The problem I have is that the description data and other meta tage data for searching on google is not available to me for people to find my site. I purchased a website that is shorter with just my company name.com now, but I can not verify the site also so it is being blocked by Facebook as a secure site. How would I go about doing this or is it even possible to correct this error to get traffic to my site? Thanks Mrs, K
Rand,
Been a big fan for years know. I'm not a huge force in the industry but, happen to also be an old friend of Chris Winfield. Anyway, I wanted to ask and clarify something on Subdomains: If a person creates a site surrounding a specific topic like SEO and other digital business and marketing but, it's their name and not an agency (example: https://brucebreton.com) and that person has other interests, hobbies, etc.?
What would make more sense to you; a Subdomain or a Subfolder (example: https://brucebreton.com/blog vs. https://cars.brucebreton.com or https://golf.brucebreton.com)? This may be applied to businesses looking to expand (if using unique content and not deep linking the daylights out of each other for the purpose of "link building" or even creating a "link wheel."
This mostly applies to the personal site side of things but could also be used in the case of having multiple resumes. The paper resume is dead (or should be) but, if someone worked in the industries of sports, restaurants, automotive and digital business development wouldn't this be a more seemless way of segmenting seemingly separate niche markets or industries under the umbrella of that entity. Based on your whiteboard it seems as if it leaves the idea still open for such a question. What are your thoughts?
My best metaphor for this would be an "umbrella effect," which seems to take your whiteboard statement to a level of coming up for relevant key phases or questions within algorithmic search while avoiding the need for 2, 3, and 4 separate domains. Which should also take care of your
Bruce
Hi Bruce!
That's a great question! I'd actually suggest posting it to our Q&A forum. You'll be much more likely to get a response in there. :)
Hi Rand, I would like to share my some experience regarding niche sites and branding. I had my main domain SamyakOnline.net. It is focused on SEO and digital marketing. It had another domain SoftwareSolutionsPoint.com focused on PHP & eCommerce development. I implemented your advice but I tweaked it a little bit. I booked another domain name that matches with my brand and company name in the name of SamyakOnline.biz. The results so far had been good. I found some increase in site rankings. Thanks for your great advice in this post. Branding works and it influences keyword rankings.
Dear Community,
We run two websites.
Domain-A: a shop (5000 pages) - here we make our living
Domain-B: a searchable Database (50 Mio pages) - we dont earn money here, we earn just brand reputation
We want to put B to A: www.Domain-A.com/Domain-B
Dont you think this could hurt the domain A?
Maybe Google thinks we try to cheat as we put so many sites on the root-domain?
Thanks for your help
Christian Geng, Germany
Fantastic, Rand, Thank you!
I'm wondering about loss of domain rank for a university site: www.universityX.edu
We have 5 campus sites, four of which have been separate sites for years. Example: www.universityXlocation1.edu
But until recently, we had one campus site set up as a subsite: location2.universityX.edu
We've lost 10% of our www.universityX.edu domain ranking since we moved the Location 2 to its own domain: www.universityXlocation2.edu.
In addition, just prior to the move, the location 2 domain was hit with spam and blocked by Google. We cleaned that up prior to the move.
So now some questions:
Thank you.
Vernon
Hi Vernon!
Just a heads up, this question is actually much better suited for our Q&A forum, which is intended to allow our community to get expert responses to their questions. :) You'll be much more likely to get a helpful response in there!
As always great post and thanks for sharing your experiences in regards to subdomain vs subfolder.
For anyone who is still skeptical around the subdomain vs subfolder debate I shared our recent results of changing to a subfolder after running our blog on a subdomain for over 10 years.
The results were remarkable and although it's still early, the change has paid off. The article is available here:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/case-study-how-single-change-boosted-organic-traffic-40-jesse-heap
This one was excellent. I've had a lot of these questions and really cleared it up for me. Because my client wants a microsite with content NOT to be part of the root site, I'm planning on using a subdomain and "hope" for some authority to be shared. However, after watching this, I'm going to plead my case to put it in a subdirectory instead. Thanks again Rand!
Hey Rand!
I know this is an old post but it ranks pretty well :-D
I am opening an e-commerce, we deliver from China and sell Chinese food.
I am european but the main website it's .net and it's in English, now I would like to target 6 countries more specifically with versions of the same website in different languages, I am using woocommerce+wpml but I hate the idea of doing a subfolder, because I would not be able to upload a new sitemap on google webmaster tool, in an ecommerce with a very active blog I am sure that a clear structure for the sitemap it's mandatory.
Considering that the first domain it's in English and it's www.mywebsite.com, if I want to target Germany with a german website, I can only choose between www.mywebsite.de or www.de.mywebsite.com, reading about all the people that lost their ranks but moving their website on a subdomain, I guess that de.mywebsite.com becomes a totally new website, Matt Cutts said subfolders and subdomains are the same for Google, but it looks like it's not like this.. so having de.mywebsite.com it's the same of having mywebsite.de that could give me many advantages.
Could you please share your precious opinion with me?
Thank you!
If you don't find the answer you are looking for here, you can always ask the community in our Q&A Forum! https://moz.com/community/q
great post!
Hi Rand,
I try to follow every topic of yours posted every friday. However, I've question regarding the above posted topic. Our website BookMyShow is on a sub-domain since years now and touchwood, it is doing very well organically. However, you mentioned sub-domains don't really do very well according to Google. I've been having a doubt since a long time now regarding our website, hence, may I know, is it recommended here to re-direct our website from sub-domain to sub-folder ? Or is it fine to be the way we're ? Please clarify my doubt.
Regards,
Prajz
Nice Post! But to be honest I am still in dilemma!
The Moz Q&A Forum is a great place to share your dilemmas as is the comment section on posts like this. This particular post is such gospel that I always keep it subscribed to for when there are new comments.
You can find the Moz Q&A Forums here - https://moz.com/community/q
I'm sure people would be more than happy to at least have a brief chat about your worries and maybe pass you in the direction of some online resources that might fill in the blanks.
It is really based on how you link your sub domain with main site. Just search on Google "SEO Tools", and you will see the first result with subdomain.
Hi Rand, Thanks for this great post and video! I spend many hours reading on this issue as it is a very critical decision. I have to tell you that you made your point clearer and stronger than others, including Matt Cutts! I was a sub-domain supporter, but not anymore!
Great article! I just ran into this problem and I remember thinking subdomians used to be the way to go. But perhaps I was remembering that might have been an old Black Hat trick people did back in the day. Either way, the programmatic problem still exists as you mentioned. I have to actually make separate sections for the site and they need to have their own CMS and custom look and feel while keeping similar aspects of the root. So now I have a decision to make. Thanks!
Advanced WordPress can be developed so one website install can have the visual appearance (or different themes) of multiple sections. This is achieved via additional template designs that are selected on a page-by-page basis. This way you have a single site from an architectural standpoint but you're able to have the site look very different across the different products/services/sections. It is an advanced setup, but it can be done without too much trouble, and still allow you to keep everything on the same domain without needing to seperate out by subs.
This is a great and informative post, but it didn't have the information I was looking for: affiliate program subdomains.
If you have an existing affiliate program on a subdomain with over 100,000 backlinks going to it (many are sitewide links from multiple domains), would that be better or worse to have on the root domain, or to keep it separate on the subdomain?
You kind of answer your own question - this affiliate sub-domain with 100,000 backlinks is basically hording that authority exclusively to itself. If that affiliate page was associated with the main domain and not on a sub-domain then those 100,000 links would be shared with ALL of the websites on the domain vs. only containing that authority within the one affiliates sub-domain. You don't want to horde all that authority when you could be sharing it with all of your other pages, and additionally I'd wonder if you would want to canonical all of your affiliate landing pages if they share the same content and keywords because then your affiliate landing pages would support your primary landing page and affiliate pages would not themselves be competing with your own landing pages. I'm of course missing the context of your site and your goals but that is something to consider.
Hi Rand,
Thank you for this informative post. I do have a question, which I hope you can help me clarify. I work for an unusual company with a 'main' branded company website' which doesn't sell anything but, which also has four separate websites, selling five different products and services - but that are connected by the brand name. They are currently considering linking all the four different products' websites to the main website - and pushing the main website as the focus for SEO, hence driving people to the other products and services that way - when they land on the main site. I don't know if this is best. Will this confuse Google about which website to rank or to drive traffic to? I need to know more about it, but wonder is possible to maintain the independence and integrity of the other four sites as independent websites yet also attach them to this main new website in this way and protect the SEO and ranking investment in the existing four sites? Is it possible for people find the products in two ways: via the new main site , which will link to the four other sites, but also via independent sites which can be found independently in the web and this independent site maintaining its SEO juice /autonomy? I am concerned that they will lose the hard-won SEO and ranking juice of the existing four sites , which drive sales. Any insights would be awesome. Thank you. Emer
is an excellent lesson with great perspective of seo..
i did this test and i don't knew that
the problem is my subdomain...
because the original content has moved to subdomain...
thank you!
great post Rand, seen a lot of these simple things crop up in Q&A
Thanks Rand!
Question.
I have 2 sites.
One has been online for over 8 years and rank very well for competitive keywords but it is not branded name.
Another is 1 year old new brand and doesn't really rank that well.
If I 301 site number one to site number 2, would it transfer rankings or I might loose them?
Thanks!
Hard to say for certain. In the short term, you may lose rankings/traffic, but we usually see those recover over the 6 months following a redirection. It's definitely work, though, and you'll want to keep earning new links to the site you redirect to, as well.
Do you know that you are ranked nr 2 in Bing for a fraze: subdomain vs subfolders rel canonical vs 301 how to structure links optimally for seo whiteboard friday? And even more surprisingly, i copied the entire address from address bar, paste into Bing search field and you are also nr 2? Nr 1 is some ecommerce site who scraped entire video transcription from this WBF. At the end of transcription there is a link pointing to this page, but in their source code, rel="canonical" (slightly different than yours) is not pointing to your blog but to their site (is that legal?).
This content is first published on your blog, and you have implemented rel = "canonical". I thought rel = "canonical" is also evidence that this blog is original source of this WBF, and therefore should be ranked nr 1.
Btw, you are using www yoursite com/blog as an example. Since is clickable I wondered would that link hurt you (thought is a dead end link) but actually the site exist. You've probably use it accidentally, because I'm not sure you really want to recommend that site
Sounds like someone trying to hijack our traffic. It's legal, but it's not a great tactic, and generally Google doesn't fall for it (glad to hear we're outranking them).
How is that legal? Is it not an infringement on your intellectual property?
Rand, here's a scenario that I have experienced:
At a past design firm, we had a client that would get offers (most likely spam) to purchase domains that were closely related to their own. The idea being that the client would benefit from gaining more traffic from other niche sites. According to your talk, that would not be beneficial unless you 301 re-directed all of the links on these sites directly to your original site.
Is it worth a company's time to take these types of website purchase offers seriously?
Thanks again!
I think acquiring other websites can be fine, but once you get past a few targeted acquisitions for the content/staff/technology/products/etc. it starts to look manipulative to Google. Redirecting all the sites to your own is a fine way to go, and if you're preserving their content, you can host those appropriately on your site and redirect accordingly (e.g. siteibought.com/chipmunk-blog 301s to mymainsite.com/chipmunk-blog). Maintaining all the separate sites and then having links between them can also work, but you'll need to be careful about how those are set up and be aware that they likely will be treated as being owned by the same entity and thus not passing link credit in the way an indepedent/separate site would.
Gosh, I really love your sense of fashion Rand! I kind of want a pair of white glasses and a matching white shirt, it looks kind of like an awesome mad scientist get-up! Looking epic aside, I also wanted to ask if you think it is okay to link from another slightly related property? I was toying with running a local foodie/culture site and linking it to a holistic/zen living site I have from time to time? Should I avoid followed links? I certainly wouldn't want it looking like a PBN but I would also like to make sure my following knows about the health and wellness site if I find a whole/raw/organic eatery because it might tie in well with the content.
Lots of great information in this post. These questions come up all the time from website owners wondering what will give them that "edge". Unless there is a branding or advertising purpose, it's always best to focus all of your efforts on one domain.
Lots of big comments! ... Engagement, +1 Moz Point for Rand.
I unfortunately don't have time to read everyone's comments at the moment, but I wanted to chime in and say the multi-site example can also be viewed as a PBN (Private Blog Network). Certainly if you silo them correctly within their respective niches and had them co-related it may not fall in that bucket, but there's a certain degree of understanding one would need to avoid inadvertently building one's own PBN and attracting the ire of Google's web spam team.
On the sub-domain vs. folder issue ... I don't think Google is having trouble or missing the mark here. I think they are very much on point. If you measured the average relevancy and qualitative metrics of a blogname.moz.com vs. www.moz.com/blog I think you'd see a trend, a very distinct one in my personal opinion. Obtaining a sub-domain for a more popular domain is a commonly gamed SEO tactic. When you sign up for Web 2.0 properties or blogs they will issue you a blogname.blogger.com URL. Google knows this and understands the disassociation. However, the issuance of */blog seems to be less, and more widely used among core websites.
At least that's my rationalization.
I kinda chuckled at the start-up comment. We currently have two valuable sub-domains. Once we get some dev bandwidth I'm going to work to get them pushed to folders. I'd be more than happy to create another data point for the sake of the community when we do!
I love Hubspot and their tools, and I understand the technical limitations, but they don't help at all with making the blog a subfolder.
My account manager at Hubspot has tried to convince me that there's no big difference, pointing to Google's responses. It's really frustrating though that that's where the conversation stops and there's nothing they can do about it.
Rand - talk to your boy Dharmesh to get it fixed!
He knows :-) It's not really Hubspot's fault. If you have to host your website separately from their servers, there's not a whole lot they can do to get a blog onto a subfolder of you original host. Subdomains are easy because you can use DNS to point them to different servers, but for subfolders that's much, much harder and can cause security issues, too.
We're experiencing exactly the same issues with Hubspot!
Rand - my SEO knowledge is shamefully limited, but in this instance could a reverse proxy work?
https://moz.com/blog/what-is-a-reverse-proxy-and-how-can-it-help-my-seo
We have 3 ecommerce stores that operate on the one platform but across different servers.
Each store has a unique target audience, content and functionality to suit that audience.
For example, one has accounts only, the other has paypal / credit card etc.
ie.
mydomain.com/business1
mydomain.com/business2
mydomain.com/business3
We want to bring all of these under the one domain, as all are currently on their own separate domain.
And, how does someone redirect to different servers under sub directories?
Would love to know how this is done.
Developer is telling us to use sub domains.
Help!
Thanks for clearing that up Rand. I kinda always know sub directories were a better move than subdomains but I didn't know exactly why. I think the subject of canonical redirects is something that most people in the space, at least to some degree, have a problem with (myself included) so that was very helpful. 301's it is for me and my clients for the most part.
The thing about the micro sites I find very interesting and one thing I want to point out - although I agree with you wholeheartedly on the SEO front - is the utility of those sites. If they all have their own specific purpose and operate as their own business units, if you will, then they are fine and any additional juice they create is just gravy for the main site. If you approach it that way you will always make the right decision as to whether or not you need a small, tertiary site. I think things like special events, promos, and products that don't necessarily keep consistent with the main site a micro site is absolutely a good idea so as to not dilute the focus and value of the main site.
Yeah, I think if you have valid business reasons for running a separate microsite and are willing to sacrifice the SEO and branding benefits of being all on a single domain, that's a choice you can make. My concern is folks thinking that microsites as a tactic are a net positive for SEO, when in fact, the opposite is true.
I like someone to explain such a fun way for those basic concepts are beginning .
I think not everyone of the importance it deserves to create a good structure thinking about SEO and this is explained very well linked .
I thought SEO was not influenced at all level structure into subdomains or subfolders and now I see that it is something necessary to consider when starting the project.
Great topic Rand.
Awesome #WBF Rand.... I like the techniques for sub-domain/sub-folder, it is best for branding and SEO prospective.....Thanks A lot for valuable information....
Awesome post! If a big media website pays a monthly fee to become a sub-domain as part of their website structure the only solution to do that would be using redirect 301 right? So once you stop that relationship how you stop those 301s?
Thanks,
Alex
Fantastic video! I've missed a lot of your Whiteboard Friday's recently, but thankfully I caught this one. As a relatively new SEOer, (is that what we call ourselves?) I found this a perfect video to help me understand a few issues and drive home a few others. Keep it up and thank you!
Using rel canonical is a good idea but if you do not use 301 redirect it´s a fail for SEO.
We've seen lots of examples of rel=canonical working fine. Do you have some examples where Google isn't respecting it and ranks the wrong version higher?
I agree 301 is, generally speaking, a more powerful signal of redirection, but when you need people to access both, canonical is the only real option.
Thank you Rand. Another superb Whiteboard Fryday. I see this too often that people are trying to spread their content on different domains. What a teribble mistake in perspective of brand building. Your white glasses look very cool by the way :-)
Great stuff here! I have a unique client situation that relates to this and I'm not sure how to navigate it! I just took on an eCommerce client that works closely with another website. This main website basically acts as a dealer and populates all of my client's products and pages on her site. All of the products and site layouts for the two websites are the same - with the exception to the changes in content/keyword focuses we have made and a few added pages here and there. My client acts as a seller and gives the other site a portion of her profits.
Even explaining this makes me think it's spammy - though she has good intentions. Will Google see the secondary site (my client's site) as a sub-domain and give equity to the main website? Or since the two are not connected in any way, will the two just act as major competition for ranking factors?
Thanks for any feedback Rand :)
Hey Rand,
It is really a shame that SEO professionals still get this stuff mixed up. Seems like SEO 101 to me.
I do have one question for you or anyone else out there who can confidently answer:
When it comes to several domains linking to one another, is this only in consideration of contextual linking or are navigational links also diminishing, or pass little value, to the target domain? Let me explain what I mean...
I have 5 websites, each representing a specific brand with its own physical store locations. Since we do not want to limit our opportunity to convert a potential customer solely based on their location, when you do a store location search on any of the 5 websites, results will show for all of our stores across all brands. This allows other store locations to show when the brand the customer is currently viewing is not as close as a sister brand. The brand site you are on will show its locations first in the search result list, but then shows sister brand locations beneath those results. Each result has a link to that store's microsite (a subfolder on the main domain for that brand). So, do these navigational links have any negative impact on the target domain? do they have any positive impact?
Not certain about impact, but I personally think it would be best to have the links direct visitors to the businesses respective map, rather than a microsite. The intent and interest of the visitor has already been sparked, so give them directions to the store. If, they want to see the website, let them view that from the link in the Map. This eliminates the questionable link, and points the visitor to the desired location.
Just my opinion...
Hey Rand, I never though I'd say this but, I disagree with you on the Canonical Tagging and of all days today! Based on experience so I guess I'd really need to know more of that experience of yours ( ;-) ), I can see that in different scenarios different sites hold up and others don't. From mine I know of certain scenarios where Google's totally ignored the canonical tag from site to site. I won't use names as I'll get into trouble but I used to manage the SEO for an agency for a big parcel brand in well... I should say somewhere on planet earth
There previous SEO agency had made the smart move to create a duplicate site and SEO that site and place a canonical across the whole site that worked fine until the day of Penguin 2. Naturally you think about links but basically the number 1 site according to the canonical tag rankings dropped off Google on average a page or two.
After a bit of digging I noticed that the rankings reports where this was happening particularly with the big volume keywords that the original site with the canonical pointing to the other site was beginning to rank, so both sites would rank. Reviewed the rankings to check and this has never happened before where there were both sites ranked for the same keyword.
Everyone will still say it links so to prove it's not about a month later we migrated the whole site with 301's, rankings not only returned but were slightly higher than pre Penguin 2 with no link detox process either
Also something you don't mention is since Penguin 2 I've always had a lot of trouble with e-commerce sites SEO and the cannonical tag - Google again seems to prefer ignoring, particularly on filtered navigation, I'd love to know what your take is on that.
I'll send you over screenshots of the above example if you like if someone will mail me on my account email. It's sneeky by Google because I think there are probably very few scenarios where this can actually get picked upand then you'd assume it's links. I totally picked this up by chance - really coz I wouldn't except my link building strategy had been penalised by Google.
Again as said by others thanks for talking about the bigger issues that no one else will touch.
Hi Tim - it sounds like a few folks have had very different experiences from mine on the rel=canonical. I wonder - was the content on the two pages exactly the same and Google still ranked the wrong one? Or was it somewhat/mostly/entirely different? The intent, of course, is to canonicalize pages that are virtually or nearly the same.
Hey Rand,
Thanks for this awesome video. I have a question about interlinking topic that you've touched. Lets say I have well-known conversion main website A that sells finance product. Recently, I have partnered with another well known content brand website B of finance in the same market and start linking to my main site A. Website B has different content team working on it but almost all contents doesn't have any sales pitch. There was also press release and it was well picked up by local news sites about the merge of website A & B. Do you think I should be aware of this one way link?
FYI, both A & B has it's own reputation with strong brand awareness in the market.
Thanks, again, Rand :). I had the problem with my blog being on blogspot and when I asked on their forum about how to 301 redirect blogspot to mydomain.com/blog I was told I shouldn't and it would be best to do blog.mydomain.com.
Glad I ignored that and went ahead with a sub folder. I think I found some code to redirect, otherwise I will just have to delete blogspot. Not a massive problem as I don't get read alot!
Yes! Thank goodness :-) Sorry you had to deal with that bad advice.
The sub domain thing was really something that I was struggling on to since past few years. I agree with your point that even if John Mueller says that it's OK but something is not disclosed yet. Sub-folder always helps the domain to be updated whenever a blog is done and this is what Google bot loves to crawl. SEO is still the same and just that Google is making it complicated with ad on. Thanks a lot for this WBF Rand. This was immensely helpful and I would suggest my clients to watch your WBF while suggesting for migrating to sub-folder. A question: If the site is in Dot Net. Will there be any compatibility issue in migration? Please let me know. Thanks!
Cheers Rand - it is an interesting question as to how complex or how big a 'stride' Google have made in certain areas, i.e identifying sub domains as a direct relation to your main site. Google are certainly very complex (I'm sure no one here would deny that!) but I wonder if it is a case of them considering factors, saying that they are working on them which they most probably are, but then people misinterpreting this information to say that they have fixed the issue already?
Whatever the case, with sub domains vs sub folders, we have always tried to make life as easy as possible for Google. Why take the risk of depending on Google to figure something out and connect the dots when it can all be on one root domain?
I think that's exactly the right way to think about it. It's a lot like keyword targeting. Sure, Google might figure out that when you say "hyperlocal, hop-based, lightly carbonated elixir" you mean "craft beer," but why create the potential for confusion with the engines or the searchers? Just say "craft beer" in your title and then use your advertising/branding to get across your particular, unique forms of language. Same with subdomains - maybe they'll figure it out, but if they don't, it sure can suck for your traffic.
Really interesting, thanks. Can I get your view on a business which has two sides to it – consumer and B2B. Whereas one property is where consumer content lives, another entirely separate domain is where businesses (eg. advertisers) can find out more information about how to buy media or sponsor content.
The two propositions are very different and will have a very different SEO strategy. In your view, is using two different domains in this instance the right way to go? Or is it better simply to have a B2B section within the main consumer domain?
I'd almost certainly urge you to go with a separate subfolder of the main site for the B2B content. Not only will this get the most potential ranking signals boosting both, it can also help with branding and with all the other kinds of promotion you do for the site.
The only caveat would be if you believe in the future that you might sell one of the businesses and keep the other (or sell them to two different entities). In that case, it may make sense to build them as unique brands on unique domains.
Great post, thank you... I'm curious--re: B2C and B2B pages; if you've got products where there could be an overlap between terms used by the different markets, would the same-domain approach still be the best way? That is, would a SE pick one page to show in the SERPs over the other if they are on the same domain? Or is it just a matter of having both pages optimized? How would anti-domain-crowding factor in? Thanks.
If there is different intent and the pages are serving different audiences, even when the keywords are very similar, search engines may choose to show one to one crowd and the other to another. But, I don't think this affects domain choices much - if you're seeking to have domain authority inherited equally and spread across in the most beneficial way, one domain's still the way to go.
If you really are doing so well that you have no more work to do on raising rankings or targeting new keywords or improving CTR or conversion, then perhaps you might think about trying to get more listings in the same SERP, but that's fairly rare in my experience.
What about the different language versions of the website?
Is it better to put them into subfolders or can they be directed to subdomains?
Thanks Rand Fishkin very informative article acctualy I was looking for this Information.
Having multiple websites that you own link back to your main website is a link scheme - is it not?
Not quite. If there is a genuine marketing reason for having a micro-site then there is nothing wrong with it. It also depends on the types of links that the micro-sites generate; if they are totally natural links then this tells Google that the page is there for a reason. If the pages are spam with the primary intention of providing an extra link to the main site then this is a link scheme.
Great stuff, Rand! Seems like you covered some of the questions that frequently get asked in Q&A. It'll be nice to have a video to explain this information easier.
Great stuff today. Love a little tech mixed into WBF.
A few years back I decided to relieve some of the overhead on one of my domains by putting the "Directory" on a sub domain. Although this helped with speed issues for the main site, overall it appears to have reduced traffic and authority on the main site. Are you stating that it may be wiser to move the directory to a sub folder of the main domain?
At this point it certainly cannot do any more harm by moving the directory, and if I use the "Duplicator" WordPress plugin the URL changes will be automated.
Thanks for any feedback Rand :-)
Have a great day!
Hi Rand,
Regarding the link structure stuff. I think I am right in saying that essentially the sub-sites are "link diluters" so....does any data exist to show how much dilution occurs or is this just too difficult to disect? In other words what measured difference does it make when changing a link from mysubsite.com to mymainsite.com? You mention that it might be better with just 2 or 3 links pointing to the main site but I would assume they would be carefully selected links with good domain authority.
great post as always (particularly the glasses this week)
Thanks Rand
But I have one question. One of my client do have 2 blogs. Older BLOG ab.name.com and New Blog name.com/blog/. The older blog has more then hundred posts index in search engine. Now we are planning to shift those post to new blog. By doing that won,t Google penalize our website since we do copy content of the other website ( subdomain ). ?
What can be done? Since we are no longer operating OLDER BLOG.
Another question is after publishing the old post to my new blog, should we remove the old blog?
Hey Rand,
Awesome article/video and perfect timing for my situation. I'm hoping you or someone can answer my questions.
Hey Rand,
I couldn't agree more about focus and building one main brand, unless it's appropriate to build additional sites. In the sub-domain vs sub-folders realm I have one doubt, and maybe you can clarify this. When it comes to a big company having multiple franchise locations, what would you say it's best? Do you think the sub-folder still the best option?
As far as passing link juice I've seen a few techniques around the web, particularly speaking of the ones shared by source wave that seems to work well (https://source-wave.com/omega-seo-link-strategies/). I would like you opinion on them.
I find that kind of stuff infuriating - it's misleading and has no basis in reality. I don't know how people fall for this kind of thing. The page and site look clearly manipulative, the language reads like a conspiracy theory, the logic makes no sense (don't close one particular kind of interlinking tactic is the advice on one, then just below is another supposed system that does precisely that). I feel ashamed that this kind of stuff is still associated with SEO :(
tl;dr - no credibility or logic to those methods. Don't try to manipulate Google with numerous sites all designed to artificially inflate link popularity. It won't work.
That's a fantastic post Rand, I really appreciate your efforts in teaching folks about SEO. But I have a question here: I am working on a B2B platform that has many sub-domains created on the basis of different verticals. All these sub-domains link back to our main website during 2012-2013 we did not feel any difference they made on our main website as far as link juice was concerned however, we faced quite a bit of difficulties in ranking them to drive some traffic. Now, during 2014 we have felt some changes and the sub-domains are ranking well and our main website is performing even better. Although, I agree with all these points you have described on board but still I think Google is changing its dynamics as far as sub-domain and their ranking signals are concerned. What do you say?
Hi Rand, thank you for shedding light one these subdomain related questions baffling me for years. Whiteboard Friday is great to learn the SEO essence! Thanks a lot for sharing.
Great Post!!!!
But a question in my mind..that is "Tier 1" work as subdomain site? Yes or No
Pls Suggest
Great Post Rand,
I totaaly agree with your points and I also suggest the same things in almost every case. But I think 1 case is optional. If a company has multple businesses with separate team for each business, then what would you suggest for that company? Should it put every businesses in subforler, sub-domain or should it create separate website for each business?
I would have to agree that I'd not leave it to chance for Google to definitely index my subdomain as my blog...especially if it was in a sub-folder previously. However, often times as a business, you may not want to put your open-source (wordpress) files on the same server as your main site (non open-source) since those are a bit more likely to be hacked or have a DDoS attack.
I have an instance of this case and so I did a search for "site:myrootdomain.com blog." By performing this search with the above parameter, I see Google is showing my blog.myrootdomain.com first.
Would this be good indication that Google is seeing both as part of the same main URL?
( critique ) Hi, I have watched nearly all white board fridays and love them but the intro audio is always obnoxiously loud, can you try making the audio level of the intro the same as the voice.
thank you
We want to add multiple countries in our new website. Plz suggest what will be best practice 1) Subdomain(uk.example,com) OR Subfolder(example.com/uk) Looking for great thoughts.
You would start by choosing a primary language for the .com.
Then you would create a sub-folder for each language and have the same sitemap spun out within that sub-folder.
https://www.acmeco.com/ - English Homepage.
https://www.acmeco.com/es/ - Spanish Homepage
https://www.acmeco.com/jp/ - Japanese Homepage
etc.
Dear All,
I'm waiting your response for my question. please suggest me what we do for "packers movers, movers and packers" Because my keywords are packers and movers, movers and packers, packers and movers kolkata, movers and packers kolkata & targeted pages is " www.professionalpackersindia.com/packers-movers-kolkata.html " if you've any idea please share with me."
Please suggest me. Our keywords ranking aren't increase or decrease so if you've any ideas for ranking increment please write here which we follow your instructions.
Thanks all ofyou
This is more of a question for our Q&A section at https://moz.com/community/q/, since it's a bit off-topic for this post. Thanks!
My company uses WP Engine which only supports subdomains. Even though we hacked into place a subfolder blog, it has made life very difficult.
We will now be moving to a subdomain blog for the sake of WP Engine support. I will be sure to post detailed analytics of the changeover.
Hi Rand, I have a query!!!!!!
I have a website where I created all pages on subdomains, not subfolder, and targeting the keywords on those subdomains; but still I couldn't see any ranking & traffic improvement after putting all the efforts. So, Is it the time to move all subdomains to subfolders with 301 redirection, Or should I need to create fresh pages on subfolder to rank well (but it may take long time so I am worried )?
Kindly suggest what would be the right move for me! I don't want to lose this website.
Thanks,
I found this extremely helpful. Followed advice and moved my business tech blog to my main site. Thanks Rand!
Great Post :) Thank you much for sharing.
I have two questions for Local business.
1) Yahoo Local free listings are still available or not?
2) Rental properties and Rental House are eligible for a Google+ Local page?
Please let me know if you have any suggestion.
Thanks
Rand
Once again you're answering the questions that a lot of Seo's look to other seo's that do not know but think they know,in hopes of finding out the answers to the tough questions only to get more confused. Always look forward to anything you guys are doing,as always amazing work.
Thank you
Another good WBF. Can you please share some case studies/examples related to the point #3 (microsites)?
Great Post As always!!!!
I have discussed with a client to acquiring links to a blog in a subfolder as A subfolder blog will inherit the authority of the parent site that it’s on. This means our site can rank pretty quickly for keyword terms within your blog posts.
Hello,
Have little time in SEO and I'm learning a lot from you. It seems a very interesting topic. I hope to keep learning and enjoying these post for long.
Regards,
What are your thoughts on subdomain landing pages?
If you're creating a sub-domain based landing page purely for a PPC ad or some kind of non-search related purpose, then that's fine. If you want it to rank on Google then it will require the shared authority of the root domain. Otherwise you'll have to build links and create authority for the sub-domain just to promote a single landing page, and that's way more trouble than it's worth.
I love Whiteboard Friday!
Here's my situation: I am looking to host video on our website using Vzaar (since we cannot access our robots.txt file to use Wistia) and after reviewing and researching, I see that using a Cname can make a double reference to our domain through the embed code, once referencing the video file, and another referencing the page it's embedded on. I would love to implement this, but I would need to set up a subdomain for the videos as you cannot set up a Cname to reference a subfolder. This obviously would go against Moz's stance, and I want to make the best decision here regarding maximizing the SEO benefits. Please help!
Web URL: https://www.TitanUsedCars.com
Currently hosting through Youtube.
Thanks!
You don't have access to your robots.txt but can you create an XML Video sitemap? We have used Vimeo in the past with our Car Dealership clients and they simply set the video to private, so that it can only be embedded (which requires Vimeo Pro). Then you submit your Video Sitemap with the correct URL and make sure the canonical is in place so Google is only ever sent the single URL to where that video will live, and that would go on a page of the site, not a sub-domain.
The problem with a sub-domain is that it will not share in the authority of your main domain. Currently you have a domain authority of 16 (out of 100) and it looks like your link to domain ratio is super high, but even so none of your existing authority would be shared with the videos if you place them on a sub-domain.
When considering using a sub-domain, ask yourself if you would also want to start completely fresh on a new domain name, and if the answer is no (it usually is) don't use the sub-domain.
Thanks for your reply Matthew. Yes, by using Vzaar, we will be submitting the XML sitemaps they create directly to Google WMT and the like with Bing and Yahoo.
I guess the question becomes, does CNAME-ing so that the embed code references our domain instead of Vzaars have a substantial enough effect on seo? I'm not exactly sure if it's for branding purposes alone, or if it does give an extra reference to our domain any time someone embeds one of our videos.
Phil Nottingham has this to say about it:
"Create a CNAME for your video files
If you are self hosting, you will probably have already done this - but some third party hosting solutions allow you to white label their products and create a CNAME alias - which can be used to make sure all links to a video file in an embed code reference a branded subdomain. This way you can ensure any embedded content links back to you twice; once to reference the video file and once with an attribution link to a page which you can specify."
Obviously, the page we specify would be a subfolder of our main domain. Not sure if this is worth doing or not. Input?
Thanks again.
Regarding the topic of multiple sites:
I understand that it is preferable to have external links flowing into the main site directly rather than indirectly via an intermediate site. However, surely the point of the additional sites is that they are designed to attract links that would never go to the main site?
For example, if my main site is a dealership specializing in antique cars, I might set up an additional site for antique car enthusiasts. This second site will attract links from fans which the dealership site will not.
The second site solves the problem How can I improve my ranking using links from sites that would never link to me directly?
Really a great whiteboard Friday Rand. I have some confusion about sub domain and sub folder. If you have a sub-domain like you said blog.domain.com then how can it drop your ranking? I mean its like a child of your main domain and linked to the main domain's navigation as well so users can easily find that blog. But if you are working and putting great stuff which really attracts users then how a sub domain is a bad choice to work on? and how it drops your ranking?
Think of a sub-domain more as a cousin than a child. In a perfect world Google would treat Sub-Domains the same as they treat Sub-Folders, but many years of experience with this has taught us that is not the case.
When you build up blog.yoursite.com and add tons of excellent content there, you are denying the authority that is built by that content from also helping your main website. The purpose of creating that content is to improve your authority, so why deny your main website from sharing in that created value?
There is SOME passthrough between a sub-domain and its parent site, but it is filtered, and there is authority that is lost, by potentially half or even more. Since most marketing efforts are already an uphill battle, it is vital that we not force ourselves through such a filter.
We want 100% of the authority, not 40%.
+1 very well said Matthew. That's exactly what the first part of the WB Friday is all about.
Thanks for clarifying this Rand, this is great advice!
I have one question about this subdomain situation.
Currently I have a client with their local business directory sitting on a subdomain, and based on your advice I would get better rankings if I relocated this to a subfolder.
The challenge I have and i'm not sure if this can be done, is can I have two separate CMSs installed on the one domain?
Currently the Top level domain website is on Joomla www.clientname.com, and the Subdomain location pages are on Wordpress dealers.clientname.com. I will need to keep the location pages on Wordpress and cannot change Joomla for this client yet, so I really need to keep the two separate CMSs for the time being.
Can you point me to an article or provide some advice on how best to go about Getting Wordpress and Joomla to sit on the same domain.
Many thanks in advance
Armando
Holy Freaking Cow! There is so much information here with the video and with the comments. Being relatively new to SEO these are some factors I have yet to incounter, but I learned so much here. From people commenting on one country and brand with multiple languages, this is something I will refer back to in the future for sure! Rand explained the multiple site issue in a great way and one that I am postivie our clients will understand and will be willing to act. Great Video!
I love the post, but I have a question. We use subdomains for companies with multiple locations. Each location has a subdomain, with the content only changed by the location, address and phone number. In this scenario do you think it would be beneficial to change these websites from the subdomain structure to subfolders for each location? Do you know of any examples of this working?
hi Rand,
I know you are busy, but can you give me feedback on this question from a few days ago.
I have two sites that generate us an equal amount of leads organically every day, and both of these sites have their own blog. 1 goldenfs.org 2 www.nomorecreditcards.com. Both sites rank page one on Google for lots of competitive debt relief related keywords and I invest heavily in marketing for both sites. What would you do about this?
My immediate thought behind it is that since they're both producing an equal amount of leads I'm gonna leave them both up and of course they both rank for different competitive keyword phrases, like goldenfs.org ranks for my location pages but then no more credit cards.com ranks for phrases like credit card relief programs. I am leaning against consolidating the two sites, or do you feel I should consolidate them with 301 redirect.
I think it's fine. In my experience, it can be even better to focus all your energy on a single brand and domain, but if you're happy splitting your efforts and have earned quality traffic to both, it's not terrible to maintain them.
thank you very much Rand!
Very interesting WBF. I think the subdomain is less effective because the content (words) is not "inside" a website, but outside of it. Don't you think so? Interesting also the link part, I totaly agree, is better to focus efforts on one brand only :)
You absolutely want to use sub-folders vs. sub-domains. You have this main brand with authority, and you are denying that authority to your sub-sites by putting them off site on the sub-domains. If they were included on the main site, in a sub-folder, they would share in the authority of the domain.
You're hurting your location pages chances of ranking by segregating them to a sub-domain, they can't be helped by the main domain that way, and even more importantly, they cannot help each other that way.
You can still use a Vanity URL - even a sub-domain that is only a 301 redirect to the sub-folder, but you need to make sure the indexable URL is the sub-folder and not the Vanity URL or the sub-domain.
Thanks for this WBF Rand. Great post! In our team, we were debating precisely to the other versions (fr, spanish, ru ...) of the website subdomain (fr.yoursite.com) or subfolder (yoursite.com/fr). Your video has just given us a clear answer.
A little off topic, but interesting too: we also thought about buying domain names (eg. Yoursite.fr), but the fact of reviewing our SEO deter us. The work would have taken time. What do you think? It would also be interesting, right?
Thanks for covering this subject Rand, the sub-domain debate has been so ambiguous thanks to Google.
I think one tip that should be mentioned when binning your sub-site is that you should check the backlink profiles of those sites before you 301 to your money site, just in-case you pass on some dodgy links or problems!
301's don't usually pass "negative" stuff, otherwise it would be really easy to do negative seo : just buy an expired domain (or more) with a dodgy link profile and 301 it to your competitor's site.
That's why I feel that the subdomain option is usually the best to use if you're trying new things in terms of seo - coz if you get it wrong, you can always redirect that subdomain to your main site or to another subdomain, and not lose any of the link equity.
Hi great post (as usual)
What do you think of the 2 following cases
FIRST CASE **********
I have www.mysite.com with a ton of content, site is pretty well ranked but I have a forum under forum.mysite.com ... and this subdomain is better ranked than the main domain (a lot of backlinks pointing to particular threads in this forum.)
My question, would it be dangerous to move forum.mysite.com to www.mysite.com/forum/ (with the proper 301 redirections)
SECOND CASE ***********
I have 2 big websites, created 10 years ago... each of those 2 websites are well ranked... brands are well established, the subject is the same but it is complicated to manage 2 websites (differents CMS etc)
So I am thinking of puting all the content of one website to the second website (with the proper 301 redirections)... do you think it is dangerous in term of SEO? What will be the impact?
txs Olivier
Olivier,
In my humble opinion, I don't think I'd move either at this point. About Case One: You've worked to build up your subdomain, and it's ranking well. I'd let it me. About Case Two: While combining the sites into one CMS would be a more elegant solution, I wouldn't take the risk of 301 redirecting one of the sites if your rankings are strong. I'd let them both be.
i think about of the first case you main domain give the more power if having same subject, but i don't make it for some reasons.
the second case is great idea! but dont change the page for 3 weeks time, move exactly to domain that have more power.
Eg. 1 domain to 2 domain
domain1.com/category/content
domain2.com/category/same-content
do an excellent 301 with htaccess
EG:
RewriteRule ^(/.*)$ domain2.com/$1 [R=301,L,NC]
Hi Rand, thanks for shedding more light on Subdomains vs. Subfolders; and Rel Canonical vs. 301. I am very sure these topics will continue to cause issues and mixed up for SEO professionals for years to come.
Thanks for the clarity, distinction and best approach to applying them to maximize SEO rankings
Alex
Great article. Thanks Rand. Though, from SEO profession, considering branding & marketing benefits multiple site option has worked well.
Very well explained!!
Rand - it would be great if you would finish your posts with a Key takeaway section - saves a lot of time summarising your thoughts :)
Great Stuff Rand!
Great Post!