Despite being 10 days old (a lifetime in the blogosphere), I felt obligated to take an alternate position to Joel Spolsky & Dave Winer on the topic of blog comments. Here's Dave:
"...to the extent that comments interfere with the natural expression of the unedited voice of an individual, comments may act to make something not a blog.... The cool thing about blogs is that while they may be quiet, and it may be hard to find what you're looking for, at least you can say what you think without being shouted down. This makes it possible for unpopular ideas to be expressed. And if you know history, the most important ideas often are the unpopular ones.... That's what's important about blogs, not that people can comment on your ideas. As long as they can start their own blog, there will be no shortage of places to comment."
And Joel backing it up:
The important thing to notice here is that Dave does not see blog comments as productive to the free exchange of ideas. They are a part of the problem, not the solution. You don't have a right to post your thoughts at the bottom of someone else's thoughts. That's not freedom of expression, that's an infringement on their freedom of expression. Get your own space, write compelling things, and if your ideas are smart, they'll be linked to, and Google will notice, and you'll move up in PageRank, and you'll have influence and your ideas will have power.
When a blog allows comments right below the writer's post, what you get is a bunch of interesting ideas, carefully constructed, followed by a long spew of noise, filth, and anonymous rubbish that nobody ... nobody ... would say out loud if they had to take ownership of their words.
Let me go in a completely opposite direction... If you're unhappy with the comments on your blog, you haven't been building your community in the right way. It's easy to blame comments and anonymity and the ignorant masses who read your site and want to interact, but it's tough to put the blame where it belongs - with the blog or community owner.
I understand and can empathize with the frustration you might get reading comments on other blogs, but the value they bring to the table is massive - from both a community-building and a self-improvement perspective. For example, here at SEOmoz, we take incredible pride in the folks who leave comments here on the blog. I would argue that there are hundreds of examples of commenters providing an enormous amount of additional value to the blog posts. This is often true at sites like Matt Cutts' blog, Techcrunch, Creating Passionate Users and, one of Joel's favorite sites, Reddit (though it's not technically a blog).
Let me just show off a couple great, recent comments:
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Hamlet Batista on identifying directory value
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And this guy occasionally leaves some valuable comments, too
Joel followed up later that day with this post. A quick excerpt:
Clay: “...the sites that suffer most from anonymous postings and drivel are the ones operating at large scale. If you are operating below that scale, comments can be quite good, in a way not replicable in any ‘everyone post to their own blog’”...
This is an example of people posting their replies on their own site. There is a lot more value to them than the comments about this post on my own discussion forum. Why? Because I know who Clay is, I've met him, he wrote A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy, which, to this date, is the most important, insightful, and brilliant understanding of group dynamics in online communities. Dave has something to add to the conversation; some thoughts he's had since the article I quoted him on. Great content, in their own spaces.
This is what I hear coming from Joel:
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Blogs are not neccessarily about comments
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Comments are generally useless and distract from the quality of a blog's content
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Commenters are people afraid to show their identity who are prone to anti-social behavior
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My own community of commenters is not nearly as valuable to me as other bloggers who link to me
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I'd much rather earn the link love from others discussing my posts on their sites than allow them access to do it here (Joel sounds almost like an SEO
)
I'm simplifying a bit, but I still struggle to grasp where Joel's coming from. I suspect that this is because he and I have had such different experiences with blogs and blog comments. When I read a blog post, I look through the comments because I want to see how the community of readers has reacted. When there's demonstrably false information in a (popular) blog post, commenters tend to reveal the falsehood. They're great debunkers and skeptics and they also tend to provide good follow-ups, links and discussion.
I'll concede that this isn't always the case. Some blog comments are useless junk. But, guess what - that's how the Internet works! Many times, whether it's search results or Wikipedia entries or forums or yes, even blog comments, you'll have to wade through the noise to find the signal. However, I don't think that's unique to the online world - we dig through the same amount of useless junk in the offline world - people who never matured after high school, junk food, bad quality used cars, noisy apartments, lousy newspaper article writers, bad TV, crumby radio stations, and the list goes on...
So, how do you go about encouraging a great community of commenters?
- Reward them - use rankings or thumbs or ratings or even just friendly replies to let them know you're reading and appreciating
- Recognize them - if someone is a frequent commenter, refer to their previous work, maybe even mention them in the blog and definitely send them an email or drop a comment on their site
- Prune - don't let your comments turn into a trash pile; I'm all for freedom of speech, but at a professional blog like SEOmoz, we cut out the truly junky stuff most of the time
- Make it a Challenge - One of Dave's points that I really do agree with is that you should make it a little harder to leave a comment so that only those who are truly committed will bother. At SEOmoz, we've created a user account system, other blogs use CAPTCHAs or filters to assist.
- Engage in Your Own Comments - Lead by example; comment and respond to your commenters with positive comments of your own that help re-inforce the kind of community you want to build.
All that said, I'm a huge fan of both Dave & Joel - in fact, I've had blog envy of Mr. Spolsky, specifically, for at least the last 3 years. I feel almost guilty that the first blog post I dedicated to him was on a disagreement - perhaps that illustrates another piece of the nature of the blogosphere. We denizens of the web only come out when truly riled and miffed :)
Dave Winer does make an excellent point - when you write on your own blog, you must be able to express yourself freely, without fear of losing your true voice.
A blogger who writes solely for their commenters will never take it to the next level. They'll be stuck writing the same drivel (not Drivl) to the same audience. Yes, they'll have a regular set of devotees, but a blogger who aspires to be a leader needs to be courageous.
Unpopular ideas and polarising opinions help to differentiate the me-too scaredy-cats from the alpha wolf.
The old adage is, "Give the audience what they want" has been replaced with,
"Give the audience what they didn't know they needed".
If that's too wordy, Seth Godin reminds us to simply make 'a light bulb go off'.
That being said, comments can add value, and SEOmoz is at the forefront of fostering a high signal-to-noise ratio, which IMO, is due to their generosity.
SEOmoz promotes UGC content to their main blog, uses a thumbs system, rewards top commenters with premium subscriptions and even invites some commenters to help judge the Moz Web 2.0 Awards and assess the Google Search Ranking Factors.
So get rid of comments if you want, especially if you think they 'compromise' your blog voice, but if you want truly value-adding comments, how far is your blog willing to go?
Is this the Master Seth from news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Don't worry we are not here to be conformists, but we need to educate the community one step at a time...
I have found that if you want to be held accountable for what you post on your blog then you should turn on the comments. If you are posting hogwash somebody is going to tell you about it. In some formats, no comments or sparse comments can actually be a sign that you are doing things right, although some would view it as a sign of failure!
Comments are valuable, off course. Specially when smart people comment (not referring to myself here, but the smart people from around the world that share their knowledge here at SeoMoz).
But I have a particular opinion about the way people tend to comment when the community gets very tight, like the one here at the SeoMoz blog. I think comments tend to be, over time, restrained by the fear of being censured or going agains the common expressed opinion.
I often see it happen here, where most people tend to "follow the leader" and not openly criticise the "opinion maker", because they are afraid of losing points (credibility points because they will be known as trouble makers). Don't you think this can hurt the community in the long term?
Yes, I think it can affect the quality of the community.
I also hate it when people spite thumb down every post I write, which aligns with your "criticize the opinion maker" thought.
Dido, rebecca. By the way does this mean you can see the logs and specifically who uses the down thumb on which post? If that's the case, I think the rest of us would love to hear more about it.
I would specially like to know who did that to me, a couple weeks ago :-D
People thumb down all of your posts out of spite?
Thats so wierd, I often give you thumbs up because of content and sometimes I give you thumbs up just cos you're good looking :)
Haha, thanks. Not everyone's as big a fan of me as you are, Special K.
Spiteful people are just wrong! If one doesn't necessarily agree with something you can express yourself without giving somebody the thumbs down, unless they're being blatantly rude. And here's a big thumbs up to you to compensate a bit for other people's spite, Rebecca!
When I travel to a new city and I am search for a good place to eat, I look for the busiest restaurants -- the ones where you have to wait to be seated. Maybe I am wrong, but I consider that an indirect signal of high quality.
I usually do the same when I choosing the blog posts to read. Posts with a lot comments are my first indication that something exciting is going on. This is one of the main reasons I removed the link condom from the comments on my blog.
I think that blogs should be seen as conversations. If you don't let your visitors comment, how'd know if you are writing something useful or are wasting your time and that of you readers?
Rand, you are so right. See also Doc Searls' excellent post on snowballs rolling down the hill.
You have to be willing to give up a bit of control, but the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
My guess is that if Dave & Joel got comments that were at the same level as the ones I see at SEOmoz, they wouldn't mind them so much.
Clearly, building a community where ideas are exchanged respectfully is no small task. I see at least four things that SEOmoz has done to make this happen:
1. The quality of their own writing is extremely high
2. They are willing to be criticized (and take criticism well)
3. Blog posts are presented as the beginning of a conversation, with a natural assumption that the comments will continue said conversation
4. Active participants in the community are rewarded (thumbs-up, free Premium membership, etc.)
If you have a blog without these four things, it would be much harder to insure that quality, relevant, on-topic comments are posted.
I certainly feel like I always add value when I comment. Wait. What? This one? Yeah. This one's an exception....
It made me smile. This is had value. Kinda...
As an example of how valuable comments can be (this one excluded, of course!) all one has to do is browse to the bottom of any post at SEOmoz... thanks to the savvy and genuine audience you've built up, Rand, there is always something useful and/or entertaining in the comments here.
I disagree with Joel's statement that "You don't have a right to post your thoughts at the bottom of someone else's thoughts" - because if the blogger has enabled this feature then they actually are granting this right. I have a blog on my site which has the commenting functionality turned off; mainly because of the same grievances that Joel and Dave are expressing.
The trick is then to build up a readership that is both knowledgeable and constructive in their commenting; but is it better to do this by allowing commenting from the beginning (perhaps running the risk that random low-quality postings might discourage experts from getting involved in the fledgling community) or waiting until you have built up a devoted following before throwing the doors open?
I've been reading the SEOmoz blog for about a year now, and comments have always been a strong point in the time I've known it - but did you guys have commenting enabled straight off the bat?
No, the blog was launched without comments enabled (which is why all of our oldest posts have zero comments/responses).
thanks rebecca - for me even your short response proves Rand's point, as it drew my attention to the incredibly obvious 'comment tracker' in the blog sidebar, which I had somehow never noticed before. So it seems that comments began in August 05...given the current status of the blog community here, it looks like this comment enabling strategy was spot on...
Exactly. It's a matter of deciding whether you want what you write to begin a conversation, and whether you want that conversation to take place on your site. Blog software is designed to make it easy to do that, but you're not required to use it that way. You don't have to allow comments, you can premoderate comments, you can switch off trackback discovery, or you can even control who has access to what you've written.
Comments (and trackbacks) are a great way to get free traffic - some of the regular readers of my blog found their way to me from comments I have left elsewhere.
That being said, comments and ratings systems can also polarize communties - if left unchecked you allow the majority viewpoint to take hold, as they will "bury/thumbs down" minority views, regardless of validity.
Case in point: try writing a post which points out some of the problems with Apple software on any Apple forum. Even if your points are valid and you are just looking for a solution, you are still likely to be "pushed out" by the majority (I know from experience!).
That's why I'm a strong believer that its up to the administrator of the blog/forum/whatever to ensure that alternative viewpoints aren't voted down just based on the fact that they are alternative.
Many points are still valid - even if we don't want to hear them :)
I love the freedom of speech! That, like many other rights in our loving democracy, doesn't mean that I constantly have to use this right for freedom of speech. (This also means that I have the right to be silent)
But comments on web-logs like these, increase the learningcurve for everybody. That's when of course the contribution has value to the topic.
Thumbing down a member is a mob rule.
Everyone has something to contribute so it is impotant for the leader of the community to show the community how it is done.
Did you just manage to condense what I said down to 3 lines? :)
S.K. I am learning from Buffy.
I've found whenever I'm researching a topic, I read all of the comments. In that way, I have the writers view and several other commentor's view on the subject so I can reasonably assume the information or opinion in the blog is correct. If there is a lot of critique, odds are the person doesn't know what they're talking about. As we all know, there are some articles on the web authored by individuals that have no authority whatsoever on the topic they wrote about.
Great comment. Good to hear a different view. I have noticed the more comments I get the better that post does.
Yes, i agree with Rand, "If you're unhappy with the comments on your blog, you haven't been building your community in the right way."
Take a look at this, we have been commenting on this blog and so many other blogs plus reading what others have to say . It's all about building the right community!
Hamlet I agree with you in every thing except looking for the busiest restaurant..I had great grub at a dumpster...looks do not say it is good...
Use your nose. :)
Before I found SEOmoz the concept of blogging was just a spam ridden pain in the ass to me. You guys have created something awesome, and am learning so much all the time from all the postings and comments. This is an exceptional enthusiast's community and I really want to thank you guys for what you're doing here!
Just found this post, cant believe i missed it when it first came out. I have been an avid reader of Joels for a few years now, but I do have to disagree with him on this: "You don't have a right to post your thoughts at the bottom of someone else's thoughts"
I have only been reading the SEOmoz blog posts for about 6 months, but I have to say that I learn almost as much from the comments as I do from the original post, whether the comments are pro or con.
It really doesn't make much sense to me to generate blog posts and not allow comments. Comments will indicate your ability to get your point clearly presented and/or point out possible flaws in your thinking. Either way, you are ahead in learning more about your communication abilities.
There will always be individuals who will attempt to post inane garbage just because they can, but I have never seen that happen with the quality of the individuals contributing to SEOmoz. I'm sure that it occasionally happens and the comments are not allowed to be posted. That's why I'm here rather than at another site. I don't have the time to wade through the 'stuff.'
Rand, you and the SEOmoz crew have done an outstanding job of building a community of professionals.
IMO a very valid argument Rand. Once again an excellent post!
Comments on blogs often allow the blog owner to see a different view and can result in some very good contributions by others knowledgeable in the same field. I think at the end of the day we all should accept the fact that we will continue learning in the environment we are in. We can never know everything and being open-minded is a good quality even (or should I say, especially) for a blog owner.
If anyone feels that a knowledgeable minority is not represented because of the group control, do not fright. There are always a few people willing to speak out in the face of adversity that is human nature...
I love the "Thumbs Down" feature here. Post a negative or unvaluable comment, and the "mob" (as Igor put it) will apply justice. This works better than even deleting the comments, and makes everyone a part of the system.
Brian, wait till you meet Igor The Troll and you will see real justice..
I firmly believe that the most important factor in the way your community communicates with you is how you communicate with them.
Behaviour is modelled and a community very quickly learns acceptable and unacceptable ways of communicating.
One of the first rules of building rapport with a community is to make yourself available. In a blog, being visible in the comments with the community itself is the most obvious way of doing that.
If you are in amongst the comments then you can set the unwritten rules yourself by example and then the community will moderate itself.
The moz is a great example of this, look at the recent thumbing down of a member who didnt obey the unwritten rules
Without comments it would be impossible to point out that in spite of his earlier position Winer now has comments. In fact he regularly solicits answers to questions in comments. The setup is non-traditional and probably not as beneficial as it could be from a SEO perspective but there certainly are comments on his blog and a "Comment on today's Scripting News" link on the page.
That being said you hit the nail on the head with this post.
A blog is like a real world. A mirror image. So what works in the real world works in a blog.
If you come to the village and disagree with the chief he will hang you on the nearest tree or cook you for diner and the tribsmen will fuel the fire under the catle.
So the trick is to come to the village when the natives want to listen to what you have to say.
So its good to bring gifts like the Greeks do, bring love like Aphrodite does, bring wrath like the Romans do, or sit and medetate like the Japanese do....
When the time is right speak your piece!
If you come to the village and disagree with the chief he will hang you on the nearest tree
I find that that the most successful online communities have a lot of disagreement and lively debate. Just look at techcrunch.com (one of the examples Rand gave). TC is a top 10 technotati ranked blog and the main reasons it has 500k+ subscribers is because it is based on controversy. The author actively encourages conflice and disagreement and people come by the hundreds of thousands to watch the sparks fly.
People love to complain and they love to be heard. This is the reason the blogging platform has been a success right :)
I can think of a relaxing zoo that often caused sparks to fly and debates to run at certain SEO forums. Your poetry was truly filled with many truths and deserves the tumbs up.
People who fear comments on their statements should not make their statements in the first place.
I like the part about creative criticism.
If you do not criticize or receive criticism there is no communication...
I don't post much on my personal blog and I don't have many comments but without exception I find the comments very useful. Whether it be bug reports on scripts I've written or expanding on my comments in the post they make the site a better place.
Having the bug reports out in the open reduces repetition saving me time. The comments expanding on or offering a counterpoint to my post could certainly have been posted on another blog but generally speaking they would have been very short posts and anyone trying to follow a discussion would be bouncing around the web like crazy. Sometimes it just makes sense to group a discussion together in one place.
no comment
You made a good point when you said to cut out the trash. Unfortunately, this is getting to be a large problem on many blogs. Even Matt Cutts has to filter and delete many of his comments - and then remind his users that he doesn't tolerate spam.
Take one look at any submitted story on Digg.com and tell me they are valuable. I left that place a long time ago simply because the comments were useless. Everyone trying to be a comedian about every story and the topic then gets strayed. How does that add quality to the topic at hand?
I understand that personal blogs are different, but sometimes I can see where the comments ruin an otherwise excellent post. Also, I don't feel that every post is in need of comments.
So, while I understand the value of comments (As I am making one myself), I also understand the other side of the fence and the reality that some people are just out to whine, moan, and complain. So - as you said, weed them out as soon as possible.