Last week's Whiteboard Friday video caused quite a stir in several SEO-focused communities. Looking back, I should have anticipated the backlash – many of the SEO forums are filled with people building their own directories, spending money on submitting to directories and selling advertising (or serving affiliate links) for directories. There's a lot of passionate self-interest in having general purpose, pay-to-submit web directories looked upon favorably by blogs (like SEOmoz) that might influence the habits of other Internet marketers.
However, these passionate outcries in defense of what I'd consider “low-quality” directories are, sadly, less credible because of their sources. If Stephan Spencer or Bill Slawski or, perhaps even more convincingly, Matt Cutts or Eytan Seidman were supporting the general directories, I'd have a far different view. But, in my experience, those SEOs who are unconnected to the directory link-building game, along with representatives from the major search engines, have held a generally dim view of directory link building value.
To help marketers understand why these directories aren't valuable, I'd like to approach this from a search engineer perspective – but, before I do that, I want to clarify exactly what I'm talking about when I say “low quality directories.”
Below are my personal criteria for determining the value of a directory:
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Selective – it's hard to get in, because the editors carefully review the quality and value of including each site that's submitted. Yahoo! & DMOZ would be good examples of selective directories (though DMOZ is often far too picky, and my main strategy at that site used to be bribing editors, so they're not a perfect choice). Other directories may be even tougher to get on, like Nature.com's recommended links or the Forbes Best of the Web and some might be easier, like Emily Chang's eHub or Business.com. My view is that all of these provide solid value.
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Built for Humans, not Search Engines – Any directory whose primary goal is to help you boost your search engine rankings should be looked at with suspicion. If the list is intended to serve human visitors, there's a far better chance that search engines would want the links to count, otherwise, it would be very tough to argue that the site isn't manipulative by nature. Here's a good, general rule of thumb – if the directory owner is active on SEO forums, blogs & communities, attempting to market to the SEO audience, be wary. Not all of these links will be of low quality, but it should certainly raise a red flag.
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Well Referenced – Directories that have earned lots of high quality links from editorially robust sources are likely to carry far more value than those whose links stem from directory lists, SEO-centric communities or paid/affiliate links. With links that point to directories, I'd watch for quality over quantity – thankfully, Yahoo! Site Explorer tends to show more valuable links ahead of less valuable ones (though they're certainly not precisely ordered) so it's at least somewhat useful for sorting this out.
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Specific, not General – Typically, the more specific a directory is, the higher its value. This isn't always true, as general directories like the Librarian's Internet Index can be excellent, but if you find directories that are only for companies in the chemical engineering field or uniquely targeting environmentally friendly travel destinations, chances are that the value will be pretty high.
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Part of a Trusted Domain – Directories that are built on domains by themselves can be an indication of low quality (though there are plenty of counter examples here, too). Conversely, those that exist side by side on highly trusted, well ranked, notable sites are nearly universally valuable.
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Unique – Directories that follow the common formula of cloning DMOZ's layout and organization (or even take an entire ODP directory dump and then bolster it with submissions) are typically going to provide low value. Those directories that are completely unique, hand-built from the ground up without “directory” software, on the other hand, are much more likely to carry weight.
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Useful – Imagine yourself as an Internet neophyte, browsing the web for interesting, relevant content. Would you derive value from the system of organization, content, and links in the directory? If the answer isn't a resounding "heck yeah!", you might not
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Does Not Link to Bad Sites/Neighborhoods – A directory that's linking out to spammy, low quality sites is probably one of the easiest things for search engines to detect, and they're pretty fast when it comes to shutting down the PageRank/link juice passing ability of these domains. Run the MSN command "linkfromdomain:url.com" and take a peek through a few dozen pages of listings. If you see domains that you wouldn't want to link to on your site, chances are good that the directory might not be as worthwhile as you hope.
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Ranks Well – Apparently, this is a somewhat controversial way to detect the value of a link, but in my opinion and experience (both through testing and hands-on with real sites), there's virtually no better indicator that a page will pass link value (and how much) than observing its ability to rank for the terms/phrases it targets. Those that can't rank for their own title tags have almost certainly lost trust, while those who rank highly are nearly sure to provide ranking boosts. If anyone who's argued with me about this criteria in the past has evidence to show refuting my claim, I'd be thrilled to see it and happy to issue a retraction if I'm wrong, but until then, I'm sticking with this.
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You'll Know it When You See it – Frustrating though it might be, many of the low quality directories carry a number of traits in common that a smart SEO can “get a feel for.” When you visit a list like Bob Mutch's or Aviva Directory's or Strongest Links and start running down the entries, you can't help but absorb a sixth sense about which directories you'd "count" if you were a search engineer vs. which ones you'd be more likely to discount.
To get an even better sense of what I'm talking about, I dug through some SERPs tonight to find directories to illustrate these points. Below are some good examples of directories that are probably high value:
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UC Irvine's directory of resources for classicists
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The William & Gayle Cook Music Library's worldwide Internet music resources
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Refdesk.com's quick research links
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Missouri Botanical Garden's botany links
And now, a few examples of directories I suspect don't pass much link juice (or, if they do now, may not always in the future):
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tenthyear.com
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smittyzweb.com
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kwikgoblin.com
Now put yourself in the position of a search engineer at Yahoo! or Google - can you think of any good reason why these general directories that take $20-$50 to buy a link would be worth counting in your relevancy algorithm? The typical excuse that I hear from low quality directory owners is that it helps to organize the web's content (which carries some logic) and that it shows a site owner is willing to "work hard to earn their rankings." To me, neither of these are nearly as convincing as the idea that weighting these links will yield generally lower quality search results, driving users to other search engines that do a better job of filtering which links count.
To wrap up, I'd say that it pays to be mindful of where you're spending your time, effort, and money in a link building campaign. Use your best judgment and do so predictively - even if it looks like the latest PR6 directory is still passing some value, consider what you really think of their chances of staying ahead of the search quality teams at the various engines over the long haul.
p.s. Tomorrow I'll try to post on my visits to Yahoo! (in Santa Clara) and Google (in Mountain View) earlier today. :)
My first criteria for selecting directory links or any other link, where I have to pay or put some effort to get, is this:
Will it send useful traffic - This is related to your criteria of "built for humans, not search engines". Why is this my most important criteria? Let's explore three scenarios to explain it better:
1. Search engine robots follow and trust the link, but not the users. This might result in search engine rankings and visitors from those rankings, but ultimately the search engine's purpose is to follow the user. They don't judge link value on their own, we (the webmasters) are the ones casting the votes (creating the links). Eventually they will get 'smarter' and will most likely discount these links. These links are of short-mid term value. I assign low weight to these links, as the probability (risk) of these links losing value is very high. I pursue them but they are low on my priority list.
2. Search engine robots do not follow or trust the link, but users do. This will result in no rankings at all and no visitors from the search engines. On the other hand you will get direct referral traffic, which if its highly targeted will turn into conversions or regular visitors of your site. I assign medium weight to these links. As I said, search engines need to follow the user if they want to be successful. The result is that they will have to follow these links eventually, and that will result in search engine referral traffic.
Let's take for example forum signatures or Youmoz posts (before Rand removed the link condoms :-)). Even though I know these links are not very useful at the moment for link juice, the referral traffic is excellent, because it's highly targeted, and best of all, some bloggers will read your post and potentially provide a direct link from their blog and tell others and so on.
Search engines are currently seeing these patterns via their surveillance tools (browser toolbars, analytics, etc.). Whether they are using the data is a matter of debate, but they will eventually use this information to tell if a link is really valuable or not. That is the ultimate purpose. Isn't it?
3. Search engine robots follow and trust the link, as well as the users. This is the ideal case. You get good rankings as well as direct referral traffic from the directory's visitors. I assign strong weight to these links. The reason is fairly obvious. Isn't it?
About the "ranks well" criteria I think it is a good measure, but there is a small problem with this approach. You need to back it up with more deeper research to make sure the page's rankings are not temporary. What good is going to do a page that ranks well today and drops the rankings after I acquired the link? To avoid this you need to look closely at the links to the page and other quality signals that are providing the ranking boost. If they are not strong (rented or exchanged links for example) that is a clear indication that the ranks will tank eventually.
Nicely said, great insights.
I'm kinda "meh" when it comes to directories. I recently got my DMOZ link, and while I appreciate the SEO value, it brings very little traffic. Most of the sites in my DMOZ category are the ones who already rank highly for organic searches as well.
When you think about it, the criteria that makes a site link-worthy for a respected directory is pretty much the same criteria that makes a site valued by users (and linked to), which translates into high rankings. I don't find directories to be helpful when I'm searching, because I feel like the search engine algorithms have already done the same job, and better. If there are other things that make directories valuable, I'm happy to be educated on them.
On a completely, totally unrelated note: today, my paternal grandparents are celebrating their 76th wedding anniversary. My grandfather is 104 and my grandmother is 98, making them one of the oldest married couples in the world, both for length of marriage and combined ages. Cool, eh?
Congratulations, lorisa!
Celebrating 76 years. Add my congratulations!
Thank you both!
That is an amazing story... Simply incredible :)
Yep - and they only knew each other for two weeks before they got married. He knew she was a great cook, and she knew he was a successful farmer. That's all it took in those days!
Built for Humans, not Search Engines
You would think this idea would catch on more, I've been using this as an idea for how to create better content for a while now. It just makes sense, it converts better, it gives the search engines a boner anyway, and if you are always trying to do it you end up with so much fresh content, you don't have to build for the search engines.
ROFL @ 'gives the search engines a boner...'
I did a test early this year and posted a link to some 1 000 directories. The directories were handpicked and no "spam direrctories" were on the list. Anchor text was different and links were not posted during one week etc.
The keyword was related to mobile entertainment (and cvery competitive). The result to my test site when it comes to PR, ranking and SEO in general was none. I still rank the same and have the same traffic. So my conclusion and advice is that do not spend time on directory submissions.
Before I probably get beat down out of existance I'll say I have he highest respect for Rand & Co - I think SEOmoz is one of the very few "seo celebrity" blogs worth reading.. However, I don't see where you're coming from with this, why make directory submission so much more complicated than it is? My thought is, if you've built up a medium/strong link profile (i.e. your site isn't new) then go to town the directories - you can get 1200 submissions for $200. Sure some links may be a bit crud - but who cares? Are you telling me those couple of hundred cruddy links will damage my rankings?? If so - brilliant, I've got lots of competitors I'm going to buy directory submissions for then! The crud ones don't even want email verification! It's not as if you're going to get a link growth spike either. With hundreds of small directories, it sometimes takes months to get all the backlinks indexed - so it actually looks like organic link growth. So directories - I can do the big boys like DMOZ myself, punt $200 at over 1,000 directories, some will stick, some will miss - who cares? It took 2 minutes of my time and $200 of my money. There are better things you can be spending your time on, rather than directory submissions.
I'm with ya on this one.
Zaub, startpagina.nl has different type of directories in it.
The main one uses rel="nofollow" which does not giv you PR juice so it is kind of lame.
But the directory has sub directories that do not use rel="nofollow"
My business is listed in
https://reisorganisaties-azie.startpagina.nl/ and they put me there free no lick exchange nothing....but that was six years ago..
You should check out the different sub directories they have using Google site: command, maybe you will find something good.
I also practised martial arts for 10 years, I did Go Ju Ru, which is a style from Okinawa, Japan.
I know in the states there are many Karate and Kung Fu schools. Maybe you should contact them and do some of your SEO kata with them and exchange some links...
Also do some events were you invite people from different countries to mix and match and practise together....
You got to go social dude...not be a love wolf...like Miagi
Thumbed up for the idea of SEO kata
Excellent run-down, Rand.
There's two additional factors I often refer to when trying to explain to people who are well-intentioned, but choosing bad directories to submit to:
1. If the directory requires a reciprocal link, this is not a good sign. There are some that do, and I find it a signal that the directory has low relevancy or authority.
2. Have you HEARD of it? As a common-sense sniff test, it falls in with that idea of being an Internet neophyte to some extent. I'm not saying that a directory has to be well-known to have value, but I'd bet with some of these 'directories,' the founder's mother hasn't heard of it and doesn't use it. Not a good sign.
In a lot of cases, even if the submission fee is 'only' $10, I still recommend 2-3 fancy coffee drinks (depending on the coffee purveyor), over a 2-3 week period, for the same cash. To give them some perceived web site value, I suggest they sip their delicious caffeinated beverage while reviewing their traffic reports, and look at where their best referrers are coming from, and try to build from there.
Fantastic post. It has been my experience that many SEOs rely on using these directories as a way to tell clients they are actively link-building since they don't want to put the time or energy into writing press releases or blog entries, creating widgets or tools or other higher-quality link bait tactics.
Well they are giving their clients bad advise.
There is no free lunch. You get back what you sow.
And for 9.99 you get taken for a ride....
Directories have been bothering me lately.
I've built a website for a martial arts school that teaches a specific style of martial arts. I'm also doing some very limited internet marketing for them, due to time constraints.
Now, in the Netherlands there's a phenomena called "startpagina", which pretty much translates into "start page", portal page or maybe link portal page is a better term.
Basically each specific "startpagina" is about a certain topic. You can have bunnies.startpagina.nl, ferrari.startpagina.nl, etc (just example pages). All they have on there are categorized links and advertisements.
I'm looking for link opportunities in several areas, one of which are martial arts related websites. Makes sense in my opinion.
Have a look at the following Google search for "martial arts" in Dutch. Roughly 642k results there.
Seven out of ten websites on the first page are the link portal pages I mentioned above. The top 5 consists entirely of this type of "website".
Personally, I hate them. They offer very little value to visitors. There’s no real content on there. Just links and advertisements.
Usually obtaining a link from one of these pages is done by email or a web form. Most of the time the link will be given for free if the owner of the specific sub-portal page deems your website “worthy”. But the vast majority will ask for a reciprocal link to be placed, before they give you one.
Then there’s the “corrupt” page owners that dare to ask hundreds of dollars for a link from their page. They’re funny.
Basically it’s a vast network of link portal pages tied together with hundreds to thousands of links, advertisements and no real content.
Personally I’d love to see some actual information about martial arts appearing in the top 5, but maybe that’s just me. I fail to comprehend how these pages with sometimes up to hundreds of links on them (I’ve seen it happen -_-) are useful. Granted, they’re categorized... but once the amount of links exceeds a certain number, surely it cannot be very easy to absorb the information displayed on the page.
Problem is, most internet users at home use these pages. A lot. These pages get links from all sorts of websites: from grandma’s knitting emporium to the local library website. The “common internet user” in the Netherlands loves these pages.
So I’ve resorted to actively getting links from these pages, alongside my other link building and publicity activities.
It hurts.
I’m pretty sure I had a point when I started typing... but lunch is over now. I just don't like seeing these pages, with no real informative content, claim the top 5 positions for a very general and popular search like "martial arts" (and other mainstream searches) in Dutch.
/sigh
It's called subdomain spamming. And yes, it's annoying.
Zaubermuffin, why does it hurt?
As you point out, the startpagina phenomenon is pretty much a Dutch thing and, to be honest, is a similar amateur-style marketing exercise to webrings. In both cases, originally the participants were a) amateur b) pretty honest and c) relevant
Which meant they got a lot of links, and a lot of historic reciprocal links, and a lot of web beginners used and still use them.
So in this case, like webrings and although they might offend the noses of the advanced "social marketer", they are often effective both in terms of sending relevant visitors and not being seen by the search engines as a reciprocal scheme.
I'm at heart a contrarian and what I take away from Rand's post on directories is not always to look for the apparent answer, the easy solution or to search in places where the herd are grazing.
The same thing exist for many SERP's. While doing an e-commerce search for example it is likely you will find links(s) to alibaba.com, a chinese portal. This typically has little value to any consumer surfer, but Alibaba has dominated the search engines through aggressive SEO.
Would a link from alibaba be valuable? Probably for the short term, but unless you are a b2b company it is off topic and may not carry long term value..
The same is true for you: a link from kickboxing.startpagina.nl will likely be valuable in the short term, but unless this site provides true value to its users its long term placement will decrease.
This could be a perfect opportunity for a savvy SEO looking to create a personal website.
Excellent description, Rand, of the value of a directory. I spoke of directories and their value to Google and was later pleased when Matt Cutts came out and said a few specifics about directories and their value... (from Matt Cutts update to his "paid links" post)
"Q: Hey, as long as we’re talking about directories, can you talk about the role of directories, some of whom charge for a reviewer to evaluate them?
A: I’ll try to give a few rules of thumb to think about when looking at a directory. When considering submitting to a directory, I’d ask questions like: - Does the directory reject urls? If every url passes a review, the directory gets closer to just a list of links or a free-for-all link site. - What is the quality of urls in the directory? Suppose a site rejects 25% of submissions, but the urls that are accepted/listed are still quite low-quality or spammy. That doesn’t speak well to the quality of the directory. - If there is a fee, what’s the purpose of the fee? For a high-quality directory, the fee is primarily for the time/effort for someone to do a genuine evaluation of a url or site.
Those are a few factors I’d consider. If you put on your user hat and ask “Does this seem like a high-quality directory to me?” you can usually get a pretty good sense as well, or ask a few friends for their take on a particular directory."
which were pretty much the same things that I wrote about then and you write about now.
Nice post.
Rand I didn't have time to read this post, but I'm going to later I'm in a quite hurry, but are you stating that web directories are a waste of money, and better techniques for getting links would be through social media as in blogs, forums, and good viral content?
If so I would have to agree with you somewhat, but I still think there is some quality directories out there, that are not flooded with links, but yes I think the best technique for getting links my self personally would be good content, and viral blogs that will poor in links.
Never mind I just read it real quick. :)
Always good to read before commenting, right? :)
I couldn't agree more about the non-value of most directories. General directories are even suspect anymore as most of them involve lots of sucking up and backscratching...OR you can buy your way in....but what kind of value determinant is that?
On the other hand, I don't think the search engines do a great job of going deep in various niches...and that's where a nicely done niche directory can truly add value.
I've been building a resource directory for my local geographical area (Columbus, OH): Columbus Web Directory. I've got a good vision for it, etc. However, the building process can be tricky because of time involved. I collected the links manually, but then tried to outsource the data entry overseas...only to find out that they were lacing the legit entries with false titles and spam URLs. NICE.
My kingdom for an honest man! LOL...
Great Post Rand.
Since I'm heading on a directory submission journey, the set of criteria you've laid out is a gold mind to me.
Thanks a lot.
One other option i;ve included is to look at the page on which you a likely to be placed. Check out whether that individual page passes anything of value.
It just makes sense, it converts better, it gives the search engines a boner anyway, and if you are always trying to do it you end up with so much fresh content, you don't have to build for the search engines.
is this still valid in 2010?
I still see places like the yahoo directory as buying a link - but you are supposed to get good authority. worth $299 though??!!
Definitely an eye-opening post, something to think long and hard about. Thanks!
achat
Any chance of re-visiting this topic in 2010?
Is it worth the efforts?
Thanks!
For my new sites with low page and domain authority, I submit to free directories that have higher p + d authority than the site I am submitting. I start off with low authority directories and work my way up to higher.
I thought this is where the value of having SEOmoz tools comes to our advantage, no?
I'm an advocate of testing things for myself. I agree with the spirit of contributing to the community however, but I find so much time taken up reading is less time doing. After reading this post if I had taken the advice above without trying for myself, I would have been worse off. A few months ago I launched an e-commerce site, and rather than throw a ton of money at Yahoo and Directory.com I used some of the smaller better known ones, one was Aviva. My search terms weren't massively competitive, but anyone reading this who is just starting out shouldn't discount the smaller directories. If you have a site with genuine, useful content (mixed with a slew of quality relevant targeted pages) choosing some of the smaller directories used in conjunction with open site explorer checks for strength worked for me. By the way I manually submitted to all of them, and I am in no way affiliated with the directory I mentioned above. I hope that reading this post encourages people to test for themselves.
This is a very interesting post, Rand. Directory listings are very controversial issues within the SEO circles these days. And you drove home your points accurately. Many directories have been penalized by search engines, especially Google, lately because of unethical practices of their owners.
I do have a directory that I passionately manage and it passes quality standard. But it's far from being perfect. It's still a work in progress and devour articles like this to find more ways to make the directory better for everyone.
I'd like to open this question to the SEO's here. I have had an enourmous amount of success with directory submissions alone. Taking a website from domain authority of zero to 20 in less than a month. I have what I feel is a fairly tight list of directories that I consistently see positive results from. However, how many directory submissions is too much and when does one put themself at risk of the dreaded "Google Ban" (insert terror music here).
I know I'm coming to this post pretty late, but I'm really glad I found it. I just started really working on link building for my site and directories were the first types of sites I've started with. I've been weary of how worthwhile many of them will be though, especially those that require pay and/or a reciprocal link, as my research suggests reciprocal links tend to hold little value (and could quickly bog down my website and decrease usability).
Thanks for the advice.
Great post, I like the analysis on why the directory would provide value to the search engines. For real estate there are a couple that provide traffic to our websites each month, like realestateabc.com, but I try to be careful on the ones I recommend.
Nice round-up, Rand. I'm sure that if someone's revenue depends on the success of their directory(ies) then that's going to bias their point of view, but I'd like to hear a clear, level-headed rebuttal of your points by someone who takes the opposing view. I'd take a lot of convincing that the SEs would want to pass link-weight from many of these directories - regardless of whether they appear to be at the moment.
Nice.
Isn't it worth mentioning that good search engine positions can be achieved WITHOUT using directories of any sort?
Would you agree while a handful of directory submissions is useful to get your site indexed there are much better ways of getting a decent link when your site is more mature.
Well, actually Google says in their webmaster Guidelines to submit your sites to relevant directories..............
I guess if you want to target Yahoo & MSN, you would be alright, but I think Google has a big share of the internet search audience as well.
Plus, IMO, search engine rankings, etc, should always be a byproduct and not the main product.
One of the things that tends to lead people to the directories is the search for that one "magic" thing that can be done -- and in some cases this seems like the right thing to do. A client can see the results easily, and thus is more tangible than taking the time to create great copy and build up better indicators for organic listing.
Also as previously mentioned -- good thing it’s easy and doesn’t take long because sometimes it’s a more tangible result that can lead to more dedicated efforts.
Thank you so much for writing these posts! We continually get people on our forums suggesting that directories (and article submission, and forum signatures!) are a great way to build links. I'm constantly having to point out that they're really not, but until now I've had few credible resources to back up my argument.
Thanks again :) Want to write something on forum signatures next? That's kind of a no-brainer IMO ;) Good for networking, bad for backlinks.
Forum signatures are not necessarily bad. Depending on the forum software and the configuration, you might be able to sign selectively not mandatory for every post.
Signing a link to every post dilutes its value to zero.
Of course if the anchor link does not use rel=”nofollow”
But even with rel=”nofollow” you still networking which is good because someone who visits your Website may link to you, like I occasionally do.
So sign in moderation is great but when you are forced by some forum software to chise between signing every post or not adding a signature I would say better not to add it.
Now as an owner of a forum I would be concerned with having too many signatures on my board especially if you are a new domain with low PR.
At the same time SERP’s like to crawl links so it is a plus to your page to have some outgoing links with no rel=”nofollow”
If you know your PHP and MySql you can configure to have a minimum posts before a signature is allowed…
Good luck
Igor
The problem we have is that people do a lot of spamming just to get their signature links up. So we end up with a lot of low quality posts. Recently we put in a feature where signatures only show for longer posts - that's solved a lot of the problems.
However, I still have difficulty convincing people that signatures aren't very good good backlinks as far as SEO goes. The networking part is definitely good but I find the people don't recognize the value of that and focus on backlinks and SE rankings. Well, no, they're more hung up on PR than rankings which is an issue in itself. And they want an easy fix rather than actulaly putting work into something.
As a forum owner I'm concerned about the quality of advice given by others on the forum - recommending signatures as a way to build backlinks isn't particularly good advice. It would be so much better for our forum if people would focus on the networking and not the spammy backlinks.
Thanks for your feedback - I might link to this comment when I need to argue this point (again...)
As a forum administrator and developer can I give you a suggestion to disable all signature links but allow users to post relevant links in the messages.Of course you as an administrator will need to keep an eye on what links are embedded in the messages.
I have just finished developing a plugin that deletes all messages automatically that contain domains that are on my Spam list https://www.phsdl.net not allowing the Spam to even be posted. I am sorry the project is still on the incubator domain and there is no real documentation except in the forum, but you may find some interesting things that you may want to apply to your forum.
I do not know how bad your Spam situation is but my forum was bombarded by porn and such about 500 posts a day. Now if I get 5 Spam messages a day it is a bad day.
But with the same principle my plugin technology can be used not to delete the message but to extract any urls that are on forbidden list administrated by you.
Hey I am not volunteering to build one but there might be developers out there doing something like that or have it already made. You may want to post a question like that at your forum’s support group.
Actually Megan, i've found forum signatures from niche forums directly related to a sites subject, can infact for 'less' competetive terms actually be useful for obtaining a few 'easy' links.
Of course i would'nt condone spamming, its much better to participate in the forums, the you can gain related links and click through traffic.
The flip side is being too active in a forum, as Igor has pointed out will likely water down the effect of the links...
Right, but there's a difference between quick, easy, low value links that might help for less compettiive terms and what some members are presenting as a great way to get backlinks in general. An authoritative posts outlining when/where/how of sig links would be very useful.
I'd love to be able to convince them that participating in forums is a great way to network, meet people who can link to you, get direct traffic etc. rather than simply for backlinks.
Here's a typical conversation:
Member A: How do I get backlinks to my site?
Members B, C, and D: submit to free directories, write article and submit to article sites, post your signature in forums etc. etc.
Arrggghhh!!! (okay, before someone points it out - that might be fine if you want to rank for some obscure keyword phrases or your site name or whatever.) I've got some good authoritative posts to rebut the directories & articles suggestions, but not for the forum sigs...
About removing signature links - I still want to be able to reward members who actually participate. I'm happy to give that little bit back to our members. We don't want to go too far in the other direction.
Have you considered restricting the use of signatures (and even posting URLS) until a user has been a member for x days and made x number of posts? This way you can monitor those making pointless posts just to boost their post count and warn them of their conduct, in advance of them meeting the requirements.
As I mentioned above, we are restricting signatures to longer posts (I think it's set to 100 words). It's working well - scares off a lot of the people who post one-liners all the time.
(just need to talk them out of recommending forum signatures as a way to increase backlinks!)
Good job.
It is all about managing your resources!
If someone contributes to your world pass them some love..
Anyone have any good suggestions for real estate directories?
Rand, Aviva's list is based on the Pagestrength tool. Should we not rely on it when determining value?
well written --- junk directories are junk --- now take the next step and discuss search engine directory submit services. gimmicks web directories are a waste of time.
I have a list of about 10 directories I pay for, for each client. They always seem to work and, for most of the clients, we get some direct traffic that turns into sales. As long as they pay for themselves, I'll keep submitting.
On another note...
I've seen similar opinions about Article directories. They used to work fairly well, and now there are only a handful that really work.
Probably will happen to link baiting next, and then the next big thing after that.
We're lucky that submitting to directories doesn't work...hard to charge $100+ an hour for something that easy.
I'm getting a lot of value from this idea-thread (valable directories) and from your comment for the same reason.
They point out that
We've ranked relatively non-competitive phrases on on-page factors and directories alone.
We've ranked marginally more competitive phrases on directories + regular article syndication.
In each case, those initial rankings seem to have been transient and the real work is what came next... offline, human relationships leading to relevant linking opportunities.
And, I've recently come across a great ranking vertical directory for whom all their backlinks seem to be targeted links from other thin topic sites they own, and their clients.
-- Just goes to show that even some of the practices we thought were dead may still have some (transient) impact.
Great post Rand. I totally agree that directories are virtually worthless. There is no quality to be achieved from them! I have never browsed through a directory to find info, they're all just trash.
I don't think Rand is saying directories are totally useless, infact in his original whiteboard Friday post he even directs premium members to a list of SEOMOZ recommended / reputable directories.
I think quite rightfully, Rand is warning people to beware of many directories out there, which are springing up in their 1000's trying to make a fast buck.
I'd be interested to hear Rand's take on free directories...
Whether its free or not has nothing to do with quality. It could be the best directory in the world and if it was free submission doesn't mean it is bad. Just because you pay money for a listing doesn't mean its good.
I'd agree with best-optimized - free or paid, the directory's value comes from the criteria above, not the price.
thanks for sharing information, but they are just old stories.
Very good article there Rand.
I agree on many of the points.
Quick question - What is the one major -most important point that you'd consider when paying for a directory?
Would it be the age of the domain?
Cheers!
Mani
Hi Rand I own a directory called Linkspub
Don't know where it falls in the ratings but I think it follows most of ur points.
I'm unclear on the Part of a Trusted Domain part in your post.
Directories that are built on domains by themselves can be an indication of low quality
I'm pretty sure your not talking about .com or .org domains here, but could you kinda clarify.
plus, I think I registerd adnan as my name, can't remember for sure though.
take care
adnan
Rand, very nice straight forward, take no prisoners approach.
I want to ask you a quick question that I think can benefit the whole community with regards to Viral Marketing.
I do not know how back you go in SEO but in the early 90s there were two guys Bill Palmer the Troll and Igor Chudov the Troll and they staged the nastiest flame wars between each other in the whole Internet history.
Chudov even went as far as creating alt.genius.bill-palmer user group to bash the guy. Chudov won the Troll of the Year award in 1996. If you can shade a little light on this it would be greatly appreciated. Igor