I think Lee Odden did an excellent job with his piece on The Fallacy of SEO Celebrity. In the post, he explains why pursuing a goal of recognition without an idea of what you want to do with it can be so dangerous:
An amazing number of people seem to think becoming well known in the search marketing business is an end in and of itself. Not seeing the forest for the trees, these folks put vast amounts of time into link bait ridden blogs, networking up and getting addicted to the rush of ego that comes from being recognized. Is it because they misunderstand reputation marketing or are they really thinking being a “SEO celebrity” is a bankable goal?...
...Establishing a well known brand and reputation in an industry is only worthwhile if there’s something to back it up. Otherwise, all that is achieved is a hollow online existence requiring the constant feeding of “notoriety crack”.
I'd advise a full read (and don't miss the comments either). I also wanted to add my $0.02 on this subject, since I found it relatively captivating:
- There is an intoxication and an inexplicable desire that many have to be recognized or even famous. I'd be a liar if I said I didn't experience it myself, particularly when I attended my first few conferences in 2004 and 2005 and gaped at the "big names." I think youth plays a big part in that.
- You CAN win beneficial fame in the SEO world IF you stick to a singular subject and make yourself a noted expert in that field. It's precisely what Dan Thies did with keyword research, what Eric Ward did with link building, and what Neil Patel did with linkbait.
- Fame is a double-edged sword - it takes up an enormous amount of time being "famous" (even in a tiny niche like SEO) and the minute you stop answering all your emails, the negative comments and posts start flowing. Fame also takes a massive emotional toll, because you will have people take potshots at you. Don't think they won't get under your skin - just look at Danny Sullivan or Matt Cutts - believe me when I say that they have a tough time getting to sleep sometimes because of something an anonymous troll wrote about them on a blog they've never heard of.
- Getting a post popular on Sphinn will not make you famous. Getting 50 posts popular on Sphinn won't even make you famous. It takes time, effort, charisma, dedication, and talent... That is, unless you want to be famous for being an asshole, in which case, just a couple negative posts will do the trick. I'm not sure what the business model is for this, though.
- Getting known for SEO outside the SEO sphere is far more important and far more valuable than getting popular inside the niche. That's where the ROI on fame comes in, and usually not much before.
- The two best paths to fame that I know of are make great content - content so good everyone's still talking about it 3 months later (homework - what content from November of last year do you still remember?). Second - be a genuinely great human being - someone who cares about your fellow marketers, bloggers, and conference attendees. There are so many people I've met in this industry who've become great friends, and I find that if you're a friend of a few dozen powerful SEOs, they will bend over backward to help you out.
- Once you're "famous" it's hard to retreat. Just ask Shawn Hogan, who's tried to play it under the radar, but still gets mobbed by fanboys (including yours truly) when he shows up at conferences.
- Lastly, as far as I know, there is no secret club for famous SEOs that you'll be inducted into upon achieving a certain number of results for your name in Google blog search. When I started to become better known in search marketing circles, I though for sure there'd be at least a secret temple where we all took private retreats and talked directly to search engineers, but sorry - no such luck. I guess Homer and the StoneCutters are in some other industry...
I'm guessing that the discussion on this topic is going to be even more worthwhile than the post itself, so please do contribute.
p.s. I'm writing a big piece on algorithms for tomorrow, so I don't feel too guilty indulging in a little industry-centric banter tonight :)
Who cares about fame except novices and the famous themselves?
My philosophy is to be famous among my clients but invisible to my competitors.
It works for me....
I don't usually rave about other SEOs - but I figured this thread about being famous was as good a place as any...
Don't let his modesty fool you, not so long ago Duz ruled the Internet Marketing and related forums over on Experts-Exchange. He was akin to an all-knowing and benevolent king.
And even though he only posts over there once every few months now - he is still revered by all of the people over there.
I can honestly say my first few years of success in SEO were all because of things I learned from Duz.
Not to take one iota away from SEOmoz, but if you want a good SEO education, you can do far worse than to go over to Experts-exchange, and read every answer Duz has ever given.
He is so well respected over there, people have actually asked "can you please post all of Duz's answers" as one of their questions.
Oh, and check out his blog also.
Over the years, I have had the good fortune and the friendships that have come with working with and around this industry such as Matt, Danny, Rand, and many others; however to this day I maintain a personal working relationship with a couple of SEOs who are not found here or at SMX or SES or wherever.
They are not particularly famous or well known except in the hosting industry - which anyone who knows this biz knows that getting ranked high in the SEs requires huge investments in time and money not to mention great skill. They consistently get and keep #1 rankings in the SEs which is why I work with them. No fame - just the results. To reiterate what Duz said - famous with the clients (the hosting industry) - but basically unknown in the SEO industry.
Best of all they are really good genuine people which is why I like working with them and helping them along the way - same as is true with Gillian and Rand and all the rest of the gang over Seomoz.
To the tune of Irene Cara’s “Fame.” Baby look at meAnd tell me what you seeYou ain't seen the best of me yetGive me time I'll make you forget the restI got more in me And you can set it free I can catch top rankings in my handsDon't you know who I am Remember my nameFame I'm gonna rank foreverI'm gonna learn to drive traffic HighI feel it coming together People will see my rankings and cry Fame I'm gonna make it to Google Light up the SERPs like a flame Fame I'm gonna rank forever Baby remember my name Remember Remember Remember Remember Remember Remember Remember Remember Baby link to me on your siteCause your anchor text is rightYou can shoot me straight to the topGive me love and take all my Diggs BabyI'll be tough Too much Sphinn love is not enough I'll grab your site til it breaks Ooo I got what it takesFame I'm gonna rank forever I'm gonna learn to drive trafficHighI feel it coming together People will see my rankings and cry Fame I'm gonna make it to Google Light up the SERPs like a flameFame I'm gonna rank forever Baby remember my name Remember Remember Remember Remember Remember Remember Remember (repeat)
Err... wow. Good effort.
Honestly, this topic brings up mixed feelings in me.
First, yes, I am young and I am ambitious. The fact that a certain group of people out there knows about the fact that I exist seems important.
Do I seek popularity? - Yep! Do I know why I actually need this? I am more inclined to say, 'No, I don't know that'.
I've been an in-house SEO for the most part of my career and now I just enjoy myself being in social media and building relationships. I am most sure that it never does any harm to anyone, so if I can afford the time (well, not always), why not?
Do I think that this will give me something more than just a bit higher self-esteem? Well, now I think, yes. The more people I know (and hence the more people know me), the more interesting opportunities I come across daily.
The more people I know (and hence the more people know me), the more interesting opportunities I come across daily.
I think this is the most valid reason for networking and being know amongst your peers - if you are known to be knowledgeable about a certain subject, your peers are likely to refer to you if a project crops up.
The other reason (for me) is the fact that if you are stuck, you have options available to ask others in the same field to help you out. I know you mentioned this Rand, but I just wanted to stick it in there...
Ann -
There's a difference between being famous and well networked. I know a guy that you can't have lunch with without him running into 15 people he knows. And he's always finding out about opportunities before anyone else because his personal network is so big.
I'll take the ability to reach a lot of in-the-know, well connected, and able to take action people quickly over fame any time.
Yep, we usually network to make friends and find good people...
But not only that (me at least). I do network to get people know about me. Yep, I am guilty of that.
And btw, you have stated there is a difference, but could you please describe the difference? Just curious to see your point...
Being famous is usually being well known amongst your peers - well networked is being respected and approachable by your peers - I know that I would email people at SEOmoz or Gab or Sean (or you Ann) if I find out something interesting - but am hardly going to shoot off an email to Danny or Matt (not that I dont respect them)
thats my definition anyway...
and a great one, thanks!
Why not? If you have something truely interesting they would probably like to hear from you. Maybe it's just me, but most of the SEO A-listers seem very approachable.
danny is really cool and replies to emails...
That's perfect. Without some ambition and desire for recognition you can toil your life away behind the scenes without ever being recognized. No matter how good you are at what you do.
But keeping one's head below the parakeet is not everyone's idea of a bad thing.
Absolutely true. I'm just sayin'...
You mean I'm not gonna get paid for my fabulousness?
Argggh, you could have told me that sooner Lee...
This reminds me of Ghandi, call me weird, but it does.
If your goal is to be famous in this or any other field, I would keep in mind that many other people are trying to do that same thing too. Since so many people are having the same common goal, then that goal itself becomes, well, common.
The ability to inspire is needed to be famous and "common" isn't often inspiring.
The thing that seems to spark inspiration isn't really someone doing well at a common goal, it is more often someone doing well in a way or a manner less thought of, like from a pretty angle that sorta makes you look at things in a whole new light that seems to open up new and nifty possibilities.
This actually parallels "success" often in our field. Because in reality, it is very hard to succeed in SEO with "common" techniques, unless you have a big bankroll.
The neat thing about SEO is that you can be a total success using your own mind and creativity. I find that yummy.
Lee does bring up a great point, if your goal is being famous then you are missing the point, sorta like people are missing the point when their real goal is to make money from their website, but they become obsessed with other things like gathering links or search engines, and not adding anything to the equation that is creative or clever, thus taking the very common path which bears very common fruit.
This is what makes people do distasteful things that we all roll our eyes at, like comment spam.
GOOGLE GADGETS GOOGLE GADGETS GOOGLE GADGETS
:)
Sometimes, I'm reminded of my college weight room and cafeteria. The football players all thought that they were pretty awesome, strutting around, making "witty" remarks and bemoaning the interviews they have to go and do with the local TV station. Never mind that Washington State hadn't made it to a post-season match since my sophomore year: they were the Cougar football team and everyone knew it.
Thing is, 1% of them, if that, ever make it to the NFL. You're never as cool as your insular little world lets you believe you are.
After a session at SES NY last year, I thanked an SEO whose name you all might recognise for a great presentation. The person in question barely looked at me, grunted and walked off. This person gets a fair amount of press for being bloody awesome, but all I can ever remember is the hallway in the New York Hilton. Was the person having a bad day? Maybe. Was I quick to judge, in the way that people are quick to judge Rand when he forgets to email them back? Possibly. But how hard is it to nod a "thanks" to a (former) fan?
In other news, this is the only celebrity I've ever seen at a search conference. Turn around, take of your shades and say something poignant...
If you are an SEO whose name we all recognise then I can sympathise. We have all seen the Cuttlets surrounding Matt at conferences. Can you imagine how tiring that must be for him?
Let's examine an out of industry example. I cycle a lot and I have been on a few tours and covered a lot of races as a freelancer. The likes of John Cowan, Jim Davage or the Bearclaw get constant hassle from people who want to associate with them and never get any peace at all.
Now these are nice guys, but in the end they become insular and tend to keep to their small group of peers, not because they are arrogant, but because they just need a break.
Even though the name you speak of is only famous in a small industry, he might well have had a day full of fawning. Now you were not fawning, I am sure, but cut the guy a break, he cannot be nice to everyone all the time.
I expect thumbs down for this, but I always think that Matt Cutts' greatest skill is not shouting "LEAVE ME ALONE! " at conferences.
I didn't expect or want to fawn all over the person. That is far from my style.
That they were blatanly rude doesn't reflect well on them. I have experience in a different sport (but one that has its fair share of celebrities) and I found that the best athletes were usually the most polite, much like Matt Cutts.
I can't sympathise with being rude to someone who just gave you a quick, in passing, compliment.
As I say, I am sure that you were not fawning, but after being 'mobbed by fanboys' as Rand phrases it in his post, I think that it is easy to make negative assumptions in the quest for peace.
I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt for as long as I can.
[EDIT: I am trying to visualise Matt Cutts as an athlete and I keep coming back to jai alai. I can just see him, dressed as Inigo Montoya, throwing a perfect chula.]
Right. And, in truth, my perception of this person has worsened since the incident so the incident alone only added to my negative view.
Another truth? The person isn't a Matt Cutts-type figure and isn't mobbed the way Matt is. Matt is a picture of composure at these conferences and, after watching him deal with quite a few Cuttlet crowds, I have nothing but admiration for the way in which he conducts himself.
Fair enough, I was merely speaking of generic fame and certainly was not passing judgement on your individual situation at any rate.
Either way, it is time for the A Team now, so I absolutely have to go and laugh at Mr T for an hour!
I ain't gettin on no SERP fool!
That is utterly appalling, but I still laughed out loud, so you get a thumbs up for that.
Appalled laughter is my favourite kind :)
Jane, once you get to a certain level in business or in life, there just isn't such thing as a bad day. When you are invited to speak at a conference there is just a certain understanding that you have your game face on. If your spouse just yelled at you, be professional enough to file it away, smile, and do your job.
I think you are dead on in that this person was just flat rude and most likely arrogant. I remember the first time I went to a conference (eons ago - circa 2000) and met people like John Heard, Danny Sullivan, and Fred Markini - these folks were always approachable. A few years later, I sat down at a table with matt cutts, before he was "THE Matt Cutts". I don't think he was even speaking at that conference. We chatted, he engaged me as if I were as important as anyone else, and he exchanged business cards with me. To me that is what makes someone a professional.
I don't care what you've done in business if you are so rude as to not treat people with respect - and God forbid that person ever needs a favor from SEOmoz, right? :-)
On Jane's team,
OldSchool
I heard of the term 'cuttlet' for the first time at Pubcon Vegas and i saw what you mean. It actually kept me from speaking to him, i just couldn't bring myself to jump into that crowd.
but to be honest... i now regret not trying to get his attention because my problem is still not solved. Neophytes to the seo blogosphere, myself included, sometimes need to get up the gumption to ask for attention at the risk of 'feeling' put off by the movers and shakers.
SEO Notoriety? I have noticed this trend especially since the launch of Sphinn – so many new bloggers picking up top posts and blogging about them in turn with their own bent added on, just to get recognised.
And yes its great for your self esteem to be “well known” or “popular”. But I think being an SEO although almost a lifestyle decision, is also a career – is your fame adding cash to your pocket? Are the 18000 reader of your blog buying your SEO services or adding to your adsense account?
I am not so sure.
I for one although an avid reader of SEO/M blogs, stick to commenting on very few, with SEOmoz being my main activity online – but this is nothing to do with fame, I believe that most the regulars here are a great lot and I love the opinions and banter that ensues. I refuse to set up my own blog – (at least not an industry one) – and if I have an opinion, I am happy to use the youmoz section which gets a good reach.
Over the last few months I have built up my rep within the mozers, and I am sure that is all the fame I need…
I've been burned by someone literally buying my knowledge and rebranding it for their own purposes. They did it for fame.
Funny thing happened though. While they were out there trying to position themselves as a familiar face in the industry, they forgot one simple rule of accomplishment -- EFFORT.
I'd rather try all damn day to become a better SEM and simply fail -- than be successful at any one thing for the purpose of being a household name (at least, in our little corner of the web).
Don't confuse fame with success.
The majority of published work I have produced has been for a company or individual.
When I see a white paper, or even a sound-bite, which I wrote, appearing in the press, that pleases me. In many ways it is the best way to work. I and my peers know where the expertise is, but if things go pear shaped (and it is easy for a paradigm shift to turn our industry on its head) then my name is not next to the article which suggests developing links on the day that Google turns into a directory based engine.
;¬)
I encourage everyone to read the full article as well. You will encounter what will likely make the 2008 SEMMY's for the quote of the year - "it’ll be tough to pay the bills with a wallet full of famous" - Go Lee!
100% agree: that line was very good. Applicable to virtually every business / industry, too.
Wait a minute: Rebecca told me I get to trade my MozPoints for stock options when I hit 2000. Are you saying that's not true? ;)
You have to get over 1,500 before we tell you things like that.
I got a little suspicious when this month's Paypal receipt for my premium membership read "Rebecca's Boat Fund".
Shhhh. If you keep quiet I'll let you steer for a while.
Need a cabin bot?
1500? What do I get to know for being over 800?
When I am having a particularly difficult day at work I remind myself it is more important to take pride in what I do and do it well, then base my success on the praise of others. If I go to work to prove myself to me everyday, then I have succeeded. The same goes for fame. If you are basing your success on the adoration of others without taking the time to build character and substance you are doomed to failure.
On the flipside there is no doubt there is an emotional charge that comes from being connected to the big wigs in an industry. When you sit at "that" table with "those" people it feels different and it is alluring. Anyone who says differently is kidding themselves. I think it all boils down to what you do with that "fame" i.e. do you help others grow, do you educate others and are you humble. I am just as impressed with the single mother of four who works 3 jobs to put food on the table as I am with a prominent executive at Google who gives money to charities- but I digress. Character ultimately determines success and fame.
This is like being in business to become rich. If that is the only reason you are in the business you are in, then more then likely it won't work and you'll lose interest pretty quickly.
I firmly believe that doing what you love to do, doing it ethically and morally, and being fair to all your clients will make you famous/rich and so much more. Sure you might not be known everywhere and to everyone, but you will be famous to your clients who can't stop praising you for the great work you've done and increased ROI.
@Macaper: great point!! Just learning the marketing world from a web-based side, is why I read Blogs like this. Hoping to gain knowledge from the experts on this very fast and changing world of VM, SEM, etc.
I love this thread! I've seen the Celebrity phenomenon in several industries at different points in my career. Most of the mega-successful people I know are generous, humble human beings. They're often surprised and bemused at their own celebrity, since it seems to have happened so effortlessly, a natural byproduct of simply helping their friends.
The bromide "Nice guys finish last" was invented by assholes to justify their behavior. Truth is:
Nice guys finish.
Nice guys last.
I don't think people find fame, instead fame finds people. That's why it's difficult to set a goal of being seo famous or an seo celebrity.
SEO celebrities or those that are seo famous didn't set the goal of becoming famous but worked hard, shared their knowledge and managed to become "widedly honored and acclaimed".
Besides, one man's seo celebrity is another woman's seo jerk, so it's all relative.
Brilliant. Once again brilliant.
One of the main reasons I keep coming back to this blog and reading almost all of the comments is to get insights like this.
Rand buddy, to be honest, I figured that you have the fame and therefore have the bidness to keep your bills paid well.
"First you gets de mohnee, den you gets de weemins!"
I found fame early in the blogging game by complete accident, way before I was in any sort of niche. I would never trade that fame, because I met the mother of my children that way (AND moved to Oz, to boot), but it did teach me a lot about what Internet Fame can do to you.
I still thirst for fame, as is evident in my goosebumps at having a YouMoz blog approved, but I suppose the notoriety is really only worth what you put into it in the long run.
I try to have fun and be myself and make people laugh, and occasionally think, and hope that this either makes me famous or rich.
Or hungry, like I am now. Fame can wait for tuna.
Very interesting and a nice diversion from algos, paid links, SERPs, and all the usual suspects... every now and then you need to ponder other aspects of the industry.
The fame thing isn't unique to SEO... I think it has become more of our popular culture that has been building over the years... from Jerry Springer to Surviver to Big Brother to American Idol to countless other pseudo-reality shows that I'm so not clued into.
Of course, anyone entering SEO looking for fame is a fool, or at least a sadist... I can think of far easier, less stressful, methods that require far less effort and education (see previous paragraph for examples).
Personally, I'm more of an introvert, so fame and attention is generally not something to strive for for many reasons. I'd prefer enough fame to establish connections with those in the spotlight (still much work to go there), not because of their fame though, but because of what they have achieved and their knowledge and expertise in the industry.
Ironically, I think there is something better about not achieving that level of fame... when a kind comment from a peer still carries genuine value, rather than someone trying to win favor or play into your ego; when someone says you're idea is crap b/c they truly disagree with the idea rather than with you, or at least they aren't afraid to question your thoughts rather than take them as gospel.
Sure I'd love to have admiration of peers, but honestly, it's hard to outweigh the comments from clients about how you've helped them to succeed or just in explaining something to them, even something that we all take for granted as basic.... pleasure in the simple things I guess.
If the topic of this thread ever becomes a White Board Friday topic, please, please, please use the following song for the WBF.
Puddle of Mudd Famous
As for being famous . . .
I believe that making your way in the world today, takes everything you've got. And taking a break from all your worries sure would help a lot. I mean what's wrong with wanting to get away?
So what's wrong with wanting to go, at least sometimes, where everybody knows your name? Especially if they are always glad you came. I think people do wanna know that they can go to a place where they can see that their troubles are all the same. What's wrong with that?
Isn't that what social sites are all about? MySpace, Facebook, LinkedIn, SEOmoz, Sphinn, etc. Going to a place where everybody knows your name. Where their troubles are the same as your troubles? Where everybody is glad that you are there?
'Cheers' to you all! ;-)
Payne
I think that people should determine an ROI (yeah, i am a bit of a nerd) for their actions -
1) Why do you want to become famous (what is return)?
- Do you have a business that is name after you?
- Do you think it helps you get more money?
- Do you think it is going to be cool?
2) What will it take to become famous (investment part)?
- What is your industry like ?
- What do you need to do - write blogs, run around naked, run in an election ?
- How much time?
- How much money?
When you have answers for above, make a call as to whether it is even worth it ?
I think if you are Danny Sullivan being famous paid off.. Mecklermedia wouldn't have paid him the big bucks if it didn't..
Personally.. i can read this blog, read sullivan's writings, read yahoo! search blog, read the msn search blog, and read the plethora of Google blogs.. all anonomously.. unless i comment.. or someone decides to google "las vegas gigolo" no one knows who i am.. nor cares... =)
and that's a good thing..
Absolutely. I know I personally felt like 2007 was a good year for me, when it came to branding, but much of that branding was among people in my own niche. The problem is, the vast majority of those people aren't prospective clients (in fact, most of them are competitors). The branding is still a good thing, IMO, but taking that reputation and turning it into paying gigs is a completely separate stage of the game.
On the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing the fame spread around in usability (even if it's not to me). No offense to Jakob Nielsen, and I admire his work, but we've been a cult of personality of one for too long. At least in SEO, there are plenty of stars (real and imagined).
I agree and disagree...
I agree that networking and gaining respect/popularity within a niche is great for branding and I also agree that this popularity will often go unnoticed in the greater community (outside the SEO niche)... so one would then assume that it isn't particularly beneficial for attracting clients.
This is where I have to disagree. Now, I wouldn't say that being a top contributor to communities like SEOmoz will bring you bucket-loads of new leads - but it still can help.
Local businesses (especially small businesses that don't have large online marketing budgets) do a lot of research before they approach an SEO firm and I can say from personal experience that if we were not involved with such communities at least a couple of companies wouldn't have approached us.
One client said they spent a fair bit of time learning some of the basic SEO info to prevent them from being ripped-off when they were ready to hire an SEO consultant.
Due to my involvement with a few SEO communities, they recognised my business when were searching for a local place to deal with.
Now I'm not famous in the SEO industry... or any industry for that matter, but I never would have gained that client if I didn't actively contribute to SEOmoz and the various other SEO communities out there.
(on a side-note I'm a bit embarrassed to tell that story as I haven't been as active as I would like on SEOmoz lately because things have been pretty busy... sorry guys)
I think after what happened today in a 'Rockstar Shoeperstar' contest that i'm likely in it for the fame...
AK
This post reminds me of a line from the comedian Richard Pryor "What I've found is that alcohol enhances your personality. So, if you're a jerk, alcohol makes you an enhanced jerk!" That's the PG version.
Blogging is that way. It enhances people's perception of who you are - right or wrong - in the circles that you choose to travel.
Personally, I don't see anyone in the search indsutry as being a celebrity or famous. Some more recognizable than others for sure, but this is the search industry - not Hollywood!
As for an individual's motive - I think it's perfectly fine for someone to blog for whatever reasons they wish. If someone were blogging solely for the purpose of personal recognition or to build their self-esteem, for example - that's great. If they are in it to build authority on a given topic - good for them. If they're networking for business purposes - perfectly fine. Trolling to disrupt communities and feed off the fires they start and fuel...okay, maybe not so good. That said - Gawd, how I miss Igor!!! What's a community without a troll? ;)
The only advice I would give (not that anyone's asking), is to do whatever you want and however you want - and don't listen to anyone who tells you that you should blog for a specific reason, purpose or desired result. Just understand that there are consequences to everything you do - for better or worse.
On a final note - if your desire is for fame or celebrity, your best bet is to move to Hollywood and become an aspiring actor or actress (ie. a waiter or waitress) - there are only a few hundred thousand to compete with! :)
and don't listen to anyone who tells you that you should blog for a specific reason
Ahh but Sean what about those who are kind of misguided? They may feel that popularity is how the money is made... that by being well known or famous, they will instantly start getting jobs and offers. This isnt the case is it?
Absolutely, do what you want when you want, but evaluate the outcomes you expect, and what the reality is. Rand and Lee both put this point across quite fairly...
Ahh but Sean what about those who are kind of misguided? They may feel that popularity is how the money is made... that by being well known or famous, they will instantly start getting jobs and offers. This isnt the case is it?
@Rishi - Honestly, who cares? That's part of the learning process. Plus, you'll never know what an individual will come across along their path. Everyone does things just a tad bit differently. Couple that with the circumstances of time, place and Providence and you never know what opportunity awaits you. This to me is the beauty of life!
I think that people need to analyse their own motivations before trying for status - where are you on Maslow's Hiearchy? (Gab's post though not related exactly to the topic, is a good example of motivation and influence...)
People start striving for status the day they are born. Rivalry between siblings, schoolmates, and peers. It's part of the human condition. Wolves do it, horses do it, goldfish probably do it. It was probably hard coded way back in our lizard brains.
If you're good at something there's nothing wrong with wanting recognition.
I absolutely agree, Dave, and the fact that I have a well-known father (in Christian circles) has completely shaped me in this regard.
If I had a dime for every time I've heard, "I love your dad! I listen to him on the radio! I have all his books!" I could simply retire, right now.
My sister was recently checking out Montessori schools in Indianapolis for her daughter to attend, and one of the school directors, when she found out that Lisa is my sister, said, "Are you telling me that Lori, from Montessori for Everyone, is your sister?? We love her! We use all of her materials in our classrooms!"
You can bet I was thrilled. As a matter of fact, one might be tempted to say that I've worked my whole life just for a moment like that.
I know exactly how you feel. Just a little bit of recognition can change your whole outlook.
"Getting known for SEO outside the SEO sphere is far more important and far more valuable than getting popular inside the niche. That's where the ROI on fame comes in, and usually not much before."
I couldn't agree more. I'll never be known in my niche (apart from a few friends, which is cool). I am known in my own industry by the people i've done a good job for, and that's really what it's all about: doing a good job and being recognised for it.
I said the same exact thing a few weeks ago: https://www.sugarrae.com/the-semmys-launch-the-whineys-tba/ albeit, riddled with profanity...
We wouldn't want it any other way ;)
Lol - Andy Beal was in the session that Ciaran missed in SES london, about competitor intelligence - and he referred to SEOmoz as a cult... lol. lol lol.
Before blogs and social media sites was anyone famous in SEO? And really let's face it - this is all relative - I can't see Mr Cutts being mobbed by paparazzi at his local deli. Hmm maybe he would if he used his inside influence to big up his deli on google local :)
The third point about time taken being famous is a nice little insight. It brings to mind a saying I have appreciated that "Manners don't cost anything". In a world of 24/7 instant mass communication I would guess that is no longer true. It probably does take a lot of time and effort to politely communicate with the very large number of contacts we may amass in our new technology societies.
Sullivan was pretty much the first and only authority on SEO for a long time.
I guess it all comes down to why people actually work with SEO.
If peoples main goal of SEO is to become famous then I think its for the wrong reasons. Also, any person trying to get famous to get rich, I would recommend them to spend the time they need to put in on actually becoming famous on clients as that will actually make them real money.
But for thoose people that earn their fame because of beeing a great resource of knowledge and support in a very fast moving industry due to that, their knowledge and time. Then I can only salute them and wish them all the best of that fame, cause its then well earned.
Pretty much like trust and ranking for a website. Trick your way to the top and you will fall hard, rise to the top due to people likeing and trusting the "site" then you will stay famous.
Respect amongst peers, yes. Fame and being loved, I can do without.
If your business model calls for fame, then go be famous.
Don't mistake fame for being infamous ;)
Rand nailed it with his point that it's more important to be known outside of SEO.
The problem is that SEO isn't that well known outsideof SEO. Think of all the posts you've seen along the lines of "How do I explain to people what I do?"
The topic of fame brings about one thought : high school. Did I want to be cool? Or did I want to be successful? I think it depends on how you define success. I would rather had a networking strength then necessarily be “famous” within my field.
I have always said I would rather have a few great friends than a ton of people I just slightly knew. Fame in our world comes with more heartache than reward. It depends on what each person is striving for in life. I want a life/career with respect rather than fame.
I see it a little differently - instead of calling it my temptation of becoming a famous SEO, I'd rather call it my endeavour to esteblish myself as an SEO brand so that I can start charging premium prices for my services. So many times, I come accross clients, who inspite of being more than 100% satisfied from my work expect discount just because I am still no big brand. (or I could have charged more if I was Rand :) )
And the SEO brand mantra is:
This is how I see it.. And did I say I mind being fishs n walls.. not at all !! :)
....mmmmm Classic post coming from someone that sent me a rather nasty email about my business name - my sweet wife didn't sleep for days when she saw the email
There is fame, infamy and hateful
File under arrogant
David,
Is it safe to assume you are referring to toprankblog and not this post?
Fame can be worthwhile, or worth nothing. It depends on whether you're better known as a thought leader or as "that guy with yellow shoes." You crossed over that line long ago, but for a while there it was more about the shoes. :D
Wow, this post hit home with me. I have a few contacts that I know are addicted to the fame of SEO. I use to try to some extent for the purpose of brand recognition, but my client workload soon became overwhelming and has consumed my life to the tune of 70-80 hour weeks. I don't have time for fame building or even time to read all the great comments on this post.
For those who achieve it, I know there is a golden ticket. You must know how to use the fame. The fame might help you land that six figure job for some large company needing full time SEOs. You could also use your fame to follow in Rand's footsteps. Get some VC and build a powerful blog and support structure worth charging a monthly membership fee.
I have found my time better spent making my clients successful and working on local word of mouth. I commend the fame seekers that can stick with it and make it happen.
but what's the point of being "famous" if you can't anonymously piss in parking lots and hang out with strippers without everyone knowing? Just sayin' . . . .
Wow! Rand did you already know that this piece would attract this much attention or was it well - lets throw this out there? Simply the fact that so many people are in here speaks volumes.
So speak I will. "Give me the money" - seriously. Others can have the fame. Me - well I need a new sailboat.
A NEW sailboat? I hate you.
Sincerely,
Sailboatless Rebecca
If one has to base the measure of one's success on fame / infamy one is on rocky ground! Doing the basics right, learning, evolving is the name of the game. Sharing one's insights and thus lighting the way for others to follow doesn't necessarily mean that the ultimate goal is to be a superhero.
This blog definitely makes a lot of sense as several people seek fame in just about every niche without knowing exactly why they want it. Like others said before, being well-networked is usually more desirable and beneficial. Fame makes or breaks ya doesn't it? Never heard of good networking ruining lives!
@Rand..Thanks for the heads up to read his article. This is why I started to read Seomoz to begin with as a newcomer!
This is how SEO was explained to me by someone I consider an expert in SEO originally!
I think this is a long way for a new blogger but still hard for a popular blogger. I hope I can be a good SEO expert in next 5 years :-)
I think that fame is good thing to aim for if you want to work for someone else. It will increase your salary range or rate.
If you want to build your own sites you don't need fame, though it could open up networking opportunities.
Who wants clients though? I think the top of the SEO ladder are the relatively anonymous webmasters who are raking in tons of cash from their own projects.
I think that unfortunately a desire for 'fame' is apparent in certain types of individuals in almost every industry. I'd much rather have a long, successful and fulfilling career...
I think both Lee and yourself Rand have highlighted good talking points. there are many rockpools within the SEO industry that notoriety can be sought. However the type of "Fame" that is spoken about here is one that opens doors and commands respect from the community in general.
There are no fast-tracks for that sort of achievement. However, the first wave of the download generation are now seeking employment. If you think its bad now wait about 5 years.
A-listers can pour scorn on the Young Guns but they have been spoon fed online media for nearly a decade - they feel this is their ball and their going to play with it how they please.
Hmm, very interesting.
(I want your vote)
So I've entered this 'Rockstar SEO' contest. I moved to LA from canada to try to be a rockstar, but needed the work visa, so I got into SEO and work for these great folks at Wpromote (whose login i am using hence I didn't need the seomoz membership i won at pubcon, instead I took the ipod nano!)
it will be very interesting to see where things go in the next 2-4 years. I'm super stoked, just got a pad downtown LA (from south bay) and have 2 bands ready to rock out!
Check out the contest that is on the 'Shoemoney' boyz site and if you could, please vote for my blog - digital vegetarian if you like it. I wrote '69 reasons I should go to SXSW on shoemoney's dime'
This is the link: Vote for Digital Vegetarian please - no login required, just choose and vote.
You can read the post at www.digitalvegetarian.com - Its all about Rockstar SEO.
See the pic of Rand Fishkin in there as well as other 'famous' SEO folks...
hmmm. interesting topic...what next? i'm starting to do video comments with my guitar in hand instead of typing all the time, especially on facebook, it's easier. I just with the iphone would let me upload photos to craigslist when in need of selling something fast and not at a PC.
thoughts? votes? please vote... -KRONiS
I am not referring to this post Sean
Cheers
David
A couple people asked Matt Cutts to autograph his Search Spam card for them at Pubcon. I was dumbfounded.
Rae was just delighted when she ended up with her own card during one game!
I was going to ask Matt and Rand to sign their cards, but then I felt like a dork. Of course, after not asking them, I'm pretty sure I'm still a dork, so it didn't help much. Actually, in 2008, I'm probably a dork just for using the word "dork" ;)
i want one of those Matt Cutts photos where he's shaking my neck around like I'm some kind of big spam problem for him :-)
@Rand: Bravo, Thank you.
Hey Rand. Stonecutters, huh? Great attempt at debunking the whole secret SEO society "myth." I believe that's what people on the inside call "preemptive diversion" or "preemptive redirection." :-)
In all seriousness though, narcissistic personalities will tend to try to achieve fame no matter what industry they’re in, but they’re pretty easy to pick out of a crowd. Though I’ve only been to one SEO conference, I could tell pretty quickly who was full of themselves. However, in the months since, those same people have not proven to be significant thought-leaders in the industry.
I respect the fact that you, as well as several other people who are “big” in SEO, have managed to keep your feet on the ground despite your fame. It’s a deadly fall when you lose perspective and aren’t grounded.
These articles make great points and I agree on all fronts. I've been in this SEO business for about a year and I still feel like I'm just learning the ropes, so I have no illusions of SEO grandeur or fame. I do write for a couple of blogs (enter shameless plugs for SEO-KungFu.com and TheButterRoom.com.) but they are more about the SEO learning process and seeking out other search marketers with whom to share knowledge.
The other thing that I found surprising about the SEO industry since I joined the fray this time last year, is that all of the SEO "rock stars" like Danny Sullivan, Dana Todd, Rand, etc., are all approachable, friendly and are more than happy to chat with you. That impressed me more than anything.
I came from the television industry as a sports anchor and reporter and when I would cover big sporting events and meet up with the big-time sports personalities, most of them were snotty and too big to talk with the grunts. Just one more reason I am glad I changed careers. The SEO community is one of the most tight knit I've ever experienced and that's why it's so much fun!
Now, as for networking - I am always looking to connect and you can find all the links to my social network profiles here.
I'm amazed at the number of replies and readers this blogs gets from SEO's, amazing that all of you have the time to read this stuff and comment on it.
Blogging fame has paid off for few but at what cost ?
Is it really worth the effort when you already have an amazing skill (SEO) to make money for yourself or your business.
SEO's should start blogging for their customers not each other
(since no real exchange of information happens)
My 0.03$