INTRO FROM RAND: Despite pouring in 80+ hour weeks over the last month, Gillian managed to find some time to write her first content-based post for SEOmoz. Thanks, mom - you rock.
As my job is the ‘business end’ of running SEOmoz, I don’t often weigh in on the blog, but today, I have some insight that might be of use to some and of interest to others. Rand’s recent blog post about Jim Collins’ book ‘Good to Great’ got some interesting responses. I have more to say than a comment, and so, as I am famous for saying, “My put is”…
I encouraged Rand to read ‘From Good to Great’, so it will surprise no one that I am favorably impressed by the book. I’ve read the Business Pundit’s review and note that his issues surrounding the book are not with the principles, but with the notoriety the book has attained, the simplistic sound bytes with which other reviewers tout its brilliance (why does he bother? They are merely marketers trying to sell the book), and the fact that thin-thinkers everywhere jabber about simply following five steps and achieving long lasting greatness in a company. All nonsense, of course. But so what? That doesn’t detract from the scholarship, the comparative studies, or even the conclusions of this valuable work.
Collins never says, “Follow these steps and tenets and you cannot help but create a great company in one generation or less.” He merely notes that with some fairly clean, thoughtful scholarship and careful documentation, he and his hardworking team have identified some similarities in companies that have achieved significantly higher than average stock market returns for their investors over a reasonable period of time. Please note that this does not even say that the company was a good place to work, that it served its communities well, that it bettered the world, or that it produced any other desirable trait. What is interesting is that there are similarities in companies that achieved this financial success, and some of those achievements are not what we would have expected from the robber barons of more than a century ago. Some of the traits turn out to be fairly desirable for other reasons than the ability to turn a profit.
I note that it is always ‘cooler’ to throw cold water on an idea, an effort, or a production than it is to demonstrate a serious, thoughtful support of the idea. This is especially true of ideas or endeavors which have won popular favor, such as best sellers. What could be more mundane than agreeing with ‘the masses’? I am often challenged myself and have always challenged my children to choose not to be jaded, to give credit when and where it is due, regardless of whether it feels cool, urbane, or ever-so-worldly to do it. I would encourage all who haven’t read Collins’ study to do so with an open eye, disregarding the foolish thin-thinkers and the pundits alike. Then tell me whether you see something interesting in the study as I did.
Here’s what I found interesting. A number of noticeable-to-outside-observers traits were identified among the long-term financially successful companies. There are probably others that are not so easy to identify unless you worked inside those companies. I have no idea whether they might be similar among all of the companies studied. I will focus on what the study was able to provide, rather than focus on what else might be ‘out there’ for us to discover.
The companies who achieved long term profitability seemed to be, by and large, places I would want to work. Not so much because they made money, but for corporate culture reasons. That was very interesting to me because I have always known – and am thrilled to report (although I am sure this also will come as no surprise to you) that Rand agrees with me – there are some products, services, and industries I would never, under any circumstances, nor for any amount of money, work for or with, or support in any way. That specifically includes the sale of cigarettes. Some years ago, when times were very, very tough indeed for us, Rand and I sat down to discuss what new or different industries we might approach and what services we might offer in an effort to change the course of our company and save it from the extinction so many of our competitors suffered at that time. We both agreed that we would never work for the tobacco industry. Even for a million dollars. We agreed that there are some things about which no amount of money can change your mind. Child pornography and cigarettes made the list.
I was intrigued that the culture of Philip Morris seemed seductively enticing. I still wouldn’t work there. They still manufacture, encourage the addiction of, and sell instruments of death to ever younger clientele all over the world. But their corporate culture is such that they became a ‘great’ company. Great? I don’t think so. What Collins meant was ‘long term profitable’. Let’s not forget the difference. ‘Great’ is just a good marketing moniker – it sells books because "good to sustainably profitable" just doesn’t have that ring. (Also, sustainably isn’t a word, but I digress.)
I found that putting SEOmoz to the test, improved clarity on each of the issues, forced me to think and rethink some of the decisions I was making - and that Rand was making - and encouraged me to look at SEOmoz with a wider lens. As I see it, the job of the president and/or CEO is to climb the tallest tree on the highest mountain and shout to the team hacking at breakneck speed through the forest below, “Wrong mountain! Go that way!” Because we are small, growing like a weed, and always racing to meet our daily obligations, we tend to focus on crisis management rather than long term vision.
Studies like Collins’ work help to jostle me away from the daily issues to take a look at some important broader issues. I read, with interest, Rand’s take on the state of SEOmoz. Although I agree with much of his assessment, my vantage point is a little different. I have a few years on Rand and many of you who also responded. Perhaps I can shed some light with my two cents.
Does SEOmoz Have Level 5 Leadership?
No… and yes. In the making. When I read the Level 5 leadership chapter I, like the Pundit, wondered whether it was not a little shortsighted. Did one leader really make all the difference? Was GE not a great company for years and merely ‘took off’ as a result of all the work that came for all the generations before? Yes. And no. I’ve run this company (under another name) for more than a quarter of a century. That’s more than a generation. It was small, family owned, with a locally based clientele, doing largely unexciting, non-innovative things for average companies. In other words, in no way would it be considered a great company. But I planted some seeds. I was personally honorable, trustworthy, creative, and my clients made money when they took my advise and used my services wisely. Rand joined the company when he was very young. I admit I both shepherded and pushed him beyond his comfort zone creatively, in sales and management.
When Rand took over as CEO, he’ll tell you he wanted to, but wasn’t ready to do so. There is only way to become ready for such a role. As Nike says, just do it. I see the elements of a Level 5 leader in Rand. The fact that I devote hours to mopping up and doing what others don’t doesn’t make me a Level 5 leader. It makes me a good team player, a good sport. Likewise, the fact that Rand gets lots of press doesn’t make him not a Level 5 leader. A Level 5 leader’s ego is wrapped up in the success of the company, not in whether the papers carry his name or photo. Rand meets that criteria.
There are other criteria which he will struggle to achieve. But I have no doubt that he will, because of his fortitude and will. The product of first generation Americans, Rand truly believes that he can, by sheer force of will, do, create, and achieve anything. He’ll attest to the many times I have driven that idea home to him over the years. So I will take credit for ‘growing’ this emerging leader, not for being one. My own company was fine, but small and local. Rand will take it ‘to the next level’. He already has, and I am honored to steer the course while he shoulders the mantle of that responsibility.
Do We Have the Right People in the Right Seats?
Here, I agree with Rand. We have some of the right on the bus, not all in the right positions. As we are small, we don’t have the luxury to sit in our ‘right’ seat all the time. Witness that Rand and I serve as the receptionist. A note about Rebecca: Rebecca’s capacity to learn whatever is needed, under pressure, is truly noteworthy. With this large base of experience, Rebecca will find her field of specialty. But it is her ability to excel in so many areas in such a short period of time that impresses upon me daily that she is the right person. As we grow, there will be even more valuable roles for her and I have no doubt that she will identify and fill them well.
Do We Confront the Brutal Facts?
Here I bring the wisdom of age to the answer. This one is the easiest one for me to answer.
Yes. We have confronted brutal facts and survived because of it. Before the dot-com bust years, I had a traditional marketing and advertising company that also developed websites. From May to July of 2001, we saw the market for high end websites dry up overnight. We saw dozens of competitors go out of business over the next half year. We were faced with some brutal facts: 1) There was no more capital budget money in the client base we served to purchase websites. We could no longer sell to them. 2) Traditional print media marketing, specifically newspaper advertising, although it might sustain us in the short term, was a dying industry. We had to get out of it, not waste time in it. 3) If we were to survive, we had to continue to focus on web-based products and services and determine how to make that work or lose our footing in the future marketplace. We solved the problem (how is another story) and survived.
Recently, we had to look at the ‘do not do’ list. Some of that was ‘brutal’ for me, if not for Rand or the balance of the team. Some of what we must not do involves saying goodbye to clients with whom I have worked for more than 15 years. I have seen their children grow, welcomed the arrival of their grandchildren. I have seen them leave prosperous companies and start their own. I have shepherded their new companies to national success and shared in their joy. These people have become more than business acquaintances. Today, I said goodbye to one of those dear friends. We will still handle a small piece of their marketing, but I will find a new agency for them. We are no longer in that business. Hard to do. Absolutely necessary. The ‘do not do’ list has been hardest for me.
What is Our Hedgehog Concept?
Premium content. Yep. No argument there. Oh – SEOmoz was around as a concept since 2003. The company was formed as an LLC in 2005. In a few days, we’ll change again and be a C corp. I’ll get around to blogging about the relative advantages for those of you who are ready to move on from the sole proprietor consulting model soon.
Have We Created a Culture of Discipline?
Here, I would waffle more than Rand has. Discipline is not defined by working early or late. That’s passion. Discipline is doing the right things – and tending to the do-not-do list. It’s setting goals and timelines and doing what it takes to meet them or changing how them and then changing how you estimate the time it will take for the next goal. It’s applying metrics to your organization the way we apply them to activity on websites. I think we have a long way to go at SEOmoz in terms of discipline. We’re starting, but it will be a long road, and we will all feel the strain of it as we put it place. I am convinced that without discipline, we will not succeed. Wish us luck; this is going to be our stumbling block. If we can master corporate discipline, we’ll reach our goal of providing excellent products and services to the growing SEO profession.
Are We Turning the Flywheel?
I agree again. We are turning the fly wheel. I will even say that it is becoming a little easier to turn with each passing day. I will confess to feeling weary from having tugged so long and pushed so hard to make it turn even once and then twice. I expect Rand would feel the same way. But now, I see the snowball or flywheel effect taking hold. With each launch, each improvement of existing service, and each new idea, the wheel turns more easily. I’ll let you know if and when I see the point of ‘breakthrough’.
I see Rand’s challenge and hope more will step up and take it. If you’re running your own show, even as an independent contractor/consultant, this is a worthwhile exercise.
BTW - Across the pond, Will Critchlow has put his own company, Distilled, to the Good to Great test. It's fantastic to see others being so open about their businesses.
Good to Great: Gillian Responds to Rand's Answers to Hard Questions
Business Practices
The author's views are entirely his or her own (excluding the unlikely event of hypnosis) and may not always reflect the views of Moz.
One of my professors was fond of saying that any first-year student can tear an idea apart, but it takes a real intellect to come up with a better idea. We're all quick to throw in our reactionary two-cents worth these days (he says, hypocritically, as he throws his two cents in), but we all need to stop and take the time to think things through more and see the value in other people's ideas.
Thanks Gillian, this has been the best post I've read all month. I don't post very often here but just had to login to say that!
Thanks, Nick. I'm honored. And look! You've got MozPoints! Hope to see you on blog more often :)
Gillian, what an excellent post! I hope you post more. I see now why SEOmoz has gotten where it has.
I haven't read the book yet, but plan to get it now as High Rankings is undergoing many similar transformations as you guys.
(And like Kim, I didn't breathe the entire time I read the post either! :)
Woah! TWO of my heroines with kind words in one day! I'm honored, ladies. ...and offsite (email me) let me know what's going on at High Rankings. Those of us holding the reigns should connect more often.
I agree, you do rock! Unfortunately, I too am a thin thinker but realize that the value of reading this book or reading anything for that matter is what you get out of it. The Business Pundit said "The principles Collins proposes aren't bad ones, but they are ambiguous and open to interpretation'. Well then good on you for removing the ambiguity and interpreting those principles as they apply to SEOMoz. Do I agree you'll be good to great then. Nah, I think you'll be great to awesome!
My thoughts exactly David.
Thanks for the crystal clear and specific application of the book's principles Gillian (and Will). That is much more valuable than just the book itself.
Business books need to generalize rather than specify - which is why every book has case studies to draw from and why Fast Company recommends you take a big grain of salt when reading business books.
'To be able to get something out of a book, says noted consultant and author Ram Charan, you first need to understand what that key idea is. "Then you toss around that idea in your mind and determine under which conditions it's a good idea and under which conditions it's a bad idea." Finally, he says, you try to push it forward, asking what would be the next logical idea that flows from this one. That's how you get to creative solutions.'
Obvious advice but I still get managers that will plunk down the latest biz book on my desk and say "Lucas, read this book, that's what we're gonna do and it's going to change the world!".
Uh, slow down, and tell me exactly what and how it applies to us!
Hi Lucas,
I also find it very frustrating to hear, "You HAVE to read this!" As soon as those words are spilled, I invariably want to do anything but read whatever was just recommended.
I'd counsel we read everything with a grain of salt rather than just inhale stuff like whatever prevailing weed-scent is wafting by. It's one thing to read and accumulate knowledge so you can cross reference, meld, and create a greater understand of potentialities, ideas, trends, etc (Reingold says it well). Quite another to merely replace the 'idea du jour' - and stuff it down the next guy's throat - in hopes of curing the ills that beset you because you're too lazy or incapable of sorting through the info at your disposal to solve them yourself. That's what I meant by the term 'thin thinkers' and I htink you mean it too. No depth; no application.
PS - You don't HAVE to read this book! ;)
PPS - David. You may be many things, but thin-thinker ain't one of them!
One might say that of almost any document worth reading. I agree with Pundit, there is nothing earthshaking here - passion, diligence, etc. makes good companies. The interest for me lies in the details, the things I tend not to focus on because I am too busy. The do-not-do list. The hire-people, not positions. Those kinds of tidbits warrant attention. This book brings them to the fore and reminds us to do so.
What can I say, when I am this overloaded and have so little time to read, I seem to be easy to please. Perhaps if I took more intercontinental plane rides, I'd read more of this kind of book and find my jaded side coming more to the fore again. ;)
Thanks for commenting, David. I actually thought of you a lot as I wrote this and wondered about your thoughts.
Gillian - Thanks for taking the time to respond to opposing points of view. I agree with your comment here.
For 10 years now I've dealt with the same concerns and issues as the founder and CEO of my small company. It's constant stress, but it's the American Dream, and you've gotta love it.
You set a great example for all of us entrepenuers with your honust and classy assesment of the challenges faced by your own company. Good luck to all of us.
Gillian, this was an extraordinary post! I read every single word and didn't breathe the entire time. I've wanted to hear from you, in your own words, for a long time.
An observation I made for myself, about successful company cultures with employees who thrive, grow and prosper, is that the trip down the Yellow Brick Road is short-lived. It's a beautiful moment, those years where the company is cutting edge, thoughtful, on top of the mountain. But I've yet to see a company sustain any of it.
These thoughts came to my mind while touring Google and I did work for an intense dot.com that we employees were so loyal to that the dot.com crash felt more like a divorce.
Watching SEOMoz learn from its mistakes, make painful decisions, change direction and looking for ways to create a business that is more than a business is unique. It's crazy brave to share openly as SEOMoz does. Google is a tightly run ship of secrets.
The one thing that I rarely see any company do is taking the time to look at itself with eyes wide open. As the dot.com I worked for grew, they asked for feedback from employees on how to make it better. They didn't listen. They didn't listen to the bad press when they hired a new CEO who didn't know anything about our product or company culture. They spun wildly out of control and crashed. I saw the egos of the founders at every bad decision or hairy turn. They had their millions and the passion for their company stopped.
I wonder if Google will collapse under the weight of their success and glory too.
Was there anything in the book on sustainability or was it only about how to build?
Thanks for the kind words. I'm a real fan of your work, so it means a lot to me.
I haven't read the book that came first, Built to Last. But as the title implies, it's about the sustainability of great companies. In the forward to Good to Great, Collins notes that that Good to Great should have come first. I'm going to read Built to Last now.
About 'great companies', remember: Collin's 'great companies' have only to do with their ability to achieve and maintain significantly higher financial returns for their investors. It's strictly a money thing. But I'm with you; there's more to a great company than the cash it returns to its founders, investors, et al.
This is an inspiring article. Thank you Gillian (and Rand for your related article) for sharing some deep operational insights.
Where leaders speak so authoritatively (knowledgebly) with such openness, there is no doubt that their organizations are on the track to greatness.
Hi Gillian,
Excellent prose. I enjoyed your article.
Rand that post was meant for the Matt C questions thread. Whoops!
Yeah - we caught that. But I'm honored that you were reading this post when you thought of your question and popped it here. ;)
On her blog yesterday Jill Whalen talked about the "why" behind SEO and I was truly excited to see people were interested in something other than the mechanical day-to-day stuff. Then I come here today and there is this great post by Gillian that had me thinking "Thank goodness there are people with passion, principles, and discipline in this industry." It makes me want to hang out a bit more an push myself to do what I do better than I currently do it. And that's not just SEO.
Thanks everyone for some very well timed posts, you've got a big fan here!
(Coincidence Jills comment is just above mine? Who knows.)
A recent read of mine was, "How to Stop Worrying and Start Living" by Dale Carnegie, where one of his many business interviews endorsed the following for confronting a problem:
1. What is the problem?
2. What is the cause of the problem?
3. What are all possible solutions to the problem?
4. What solution do you suggest?
While 3 can get a bit unwieldy (especially in blog comment posts) I pretty much chalk a flaming comment up as 'thin thinking' if it doesn't take into consideration those four points. It's especially easy as most don't even bother with #4. And the best part, Carnegie is so old he's dealing with those Robber Barrons of yester year... ;D
this really was a good read, thanks for taking the time to write this post, will be waiting to read more from you!
Cheers.
Thanks for the insight Gillian. I was thinking to myself just last night that it would be great to hear more of your thoughts. Thanks for writing!
And thanks for the link(s)! I enjoyed the exercise actually and I hope it will have benefits for my company.
PS - after re-reading:
I love this definition:
I also think it's interesting (and probably a signal of strong leadership) that it takes Gillian (OK, his mom) to say that Rand has it (or at least is developing it.
Finally, I think the real insight in the post comes in the re-definition of 'discipline' and in the commentary on taking tough decisions.
Thanks again, Gillian!
Full disclosure time. I read that definition once. I cannot recall where. I tried for quite some time to locate the source without success. It might have been an article that is long lost to posterity. If anyone knows the origin of that definition of a leader, please share.
It reminds me a bit of a Stephen Covey quote:
Good one! Will keep that one in mind!
After Reading Rand's post I was interested in this book, and after reading yours I bought it!
Thanks for the good info.
Cool!
I get a nickel for every book sold due to my post. ;)
Great post! It's nice to get the perspective from the woman behind the moz. :)
I look foward to your future posts... I'm very interested on your take of the advantages of moving on from a sole-proprietorship to an LLC, etc..
That will be next, I promise.
Pretty obvious stuff here, but nice and easy to understand diagram.
Rand, I am still wondering how you feel about utilizing the nofollow throughout websites or if you think it is even necessary? I posted this questions on your 4 ranking factors post:
"Rand just curious. What are you feelings on OBL's on your web docs that you are trying to rank. Sure relevant ones can and do help the doc rank, but what about "PR hoarding" or "PR leakage". For example nofollowing links to shopping cart or contact us pages. Is this even necessary in your mind?"
I can certainly try to tackle that issue in a future blog post - probably late next week or early the week after.
I agree with the others that posted in saying that this was a very good read. It is rare when you stumble across information that makes you better for having digested it. Thank you for taking the time to document and share in a very honest and heartfelt fashion.
Thank you for the post. I work for a small agency in Kirkland, Washington just east of SEOmoz's location. When we were just starting out (5 employees) my boss ordered us all a copy of "Good to Great." Being a journalism graduate, I soaked it up and read each word.
I thought it was a fantasic book and a great motivational tool for the small company. A few comments, Level 5 leaders do not come around often. While you should strive to become a Level 5 leader, acheiving that status is few and far between. It takes a great product, a great business culture and of course a little luck.
To this day, my company, RedClay, still follows this model."Get the Right People on the Bus and Move Forward"