Kim Krause Berg recently raised a stink on her Cr8pc blog, criticizing the utter absence of female bloggers interviewed for Google Blogoscoped's Popular Blog Posts entry. In her blog, she protested that female bloggers have a lot more to juggle than a couple unique blog entries each day and should get a little recognition for it. She exemplified this by detailing a day in the hectic life of Kim (wife, mother, and SEO extraordinaire), and she also gave a shout-out to some of her favorite bloggers (including the lovely ladies of SEOmoz, Mystery Guest included).
Why blog about this, you ask? Well, since I'm one of two resident (and regular; sorry Gillian and Mystery Guest) lady bloggers at SEOmoz, Rand wanted me to give my input on the matter. While I admire Kim for being proud, outspoken, and secure in her beliefs (her constant allusions to sex in her posts are admirable, amusing, and disturbing at the same time), I think that both she and Philipp Lenssen have a valid point.
First, a little background info: I'm a tomboy through and through. Growing up around two older brothers and lacking a female role model (Mom worked nights, sis was attending college), I learned to love to watch basketball, pee quickly, enjoy videogames and the awesomely-bad films of Van Damme, keep my fingernails short, appreciate a crude but clever sense of humor, and hate chick flicks. I think I'm one of a few select gals who are genuinely excited to get the special edition of Dawn of the Dead as a Valentine's Day gift (seriously; my boyfriend is contemplating sending a Thank You card to my brothers for helping shape me into what he considers to be the Best Girlfriend Ever).
The bottom line is, I relate to the fellas. My male-to-female friends ratio is ridiculous. I dislike high-maintenance girly girls, so I'm choosy when it comes to befriending females. That being said, I really like and admire a lot of females in the SEO industry (Kim included) for their ability to hold their own against the big boys. They're confident, smart, well-spoken, and have a good sense of humor. I can see how Kim got offended for being overlooked as a gender.
However, we're overlooked in this field because it's male-dominated. The tech, Internet, and SEO industry are mostly comprised of males because it's the sort of industry that attracts more males than females. It's not like it's 50/50; if it were, then it's more justifiable to feel overlooked. However, I can't be outraged by the lack of recognition of female bloggers in the industry because, quite frankly, there aren't that many to recognize. If he did indeed try, I can't fault Philipp for making the effort to reach out to the few female bloggers, let alone the ones who truly know their stuff, there are out there and not receiving a response.
I don't believe in overcompensating and thinking, "Well, since there are so fewer female bloggers, I should really try to get their input as well so I won't seem sexist." That's crap. You should instead simply decide how great the information is and how much you value that blogger's input, regardless of his or her gender. I don't want to see a female become the "best female SEO in the industry" because she knows the most out of the other female SEOs, only to actually be not that knowledgeable in the overall sphere. There should be a level playing field.
Basically, my opinion is that I don't want any special treatment simply because I'm a minority in the industry (hmmm, female, young, Asian...I'm a triple threat!). I think of myself as an SEO and as a blogger. I don't slap "female" onto that to stand out more and demand more recognition. That's the way I am, and that's what I believe. It's not what I want or expect everyone to believe. I don't judge or fault Kim for getting angry, nor do I condemn Philipp for only featuring male bloggers. My personal belief is sometimes you've got to work with what you have, and I'd rather work with sexless information than be oversensitive to it.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go make some tea for all the boys in the Fresh Egg office... ;)
By: Rebecca Kelley
All The Female Bloggers Say Heyyyy!...Hello? Ladies?
Public Relations
The author's views are entirely his or her own (excluding the unlikely event of hypnosis) and may not always reflect the views of Moz.
Interesting post.
It's funny years ago in the SEO community (yes I'm that old) no one ever posted a pic or their real name so quite often you couldn't even pick the gender of the poster.
People always thought I was male (nic = sanity) until I added a photo. I thought the same about Scottie. ;)
I love seeing photos and knowing who people are - back then you could only judge a post on it's merits, which isn't necessarily a bad thing...
I was naive to think my blog post would not dissolve into a gender war. What bothered me, when I saw Philipp's orignial post, was that his list of the most "popular" blog posts contained no women writers.
I wondered, could it be that only POPULAR posts were written by men? Can't be. I couldn't believe that was the case, so that led to my next question...where are these women?
He answers later, in his blog comments after being sliced and diced by, sadly, women, that he DID invite women to present what they felt were their favorite blog posts. He never mentions who he invited or how many of them. Since there were no women in his final write up, that begs the question. How many did he invite? How long did they have to respond? If there were an equal number of men to women invited to submit their favorites, why did NO women respond?
Of course there are women bloggers. There are some who write "popular" posts. My beef was that none were mentioned in Phillip's post, with a theme of "most popular". We know there are plenty of women working by our sides. Is it that they don't blog? If not, then why? If yes, why did they not make his list?
This is not a gender mystery. In my mind, there's something more here that merits discovery. :)
...and I'm glad that there's bloggers like you out there who are willing to point it out! Seriously, your passion and stubbornness (and of the women who responded to Philipp's blog) is what makes me love this industry. I love that people, one way or another, care intensely about what they do.
Heh, I bet Philipp was expecting to generate attention with his blog post, but not the sort he actually got...
Just found this post via rebecca's other post on Kathy Sierra. I always never thought much about the gender of the blogger since I've always thought that the internet is quite a great equalizer. There are so many places on the web namely forums where a lot of gals hide behind a user name that I discover later that they are gals.
I've never liked the whole idea of "girl power" or feminist stuff probably because I'm also a tomboy too, thus my gadget freak enthusiasm. So, I am in the minority.
Great post though!
there's such a difference between feminism and the 90's spice girls thing of 'girl power'.
Feminism is just assuming and affirming that you have the right to be a person and have opinions just as much as males have, without being belittled or marginalised for your gender.
This is what I deserve for pointing Rebecca to Kim's article and asking for her input.
I think I'm a bit more on Kim's side than Phillip's. I also disagree a bit with Rebecca about choosing only the best of the best. I believe that whenever you have system dominated by people with a very uniform background, you need to force yourself to reach out to find minority opinions and experiences.
For example, in many senses, the black hat perspective is underappreciated in the SEO world, as is the International (particularly the non-English speaking) background. Thus, I've asked Gman, Guillaume and 2K to become SEOmoz bloggers.
There's a lack of representation for women, too - though the conferences I attend outside SEO specifically have been dominated by women of late (see, for example, the Stanford Web Publishing Conference). In the SEO world, though, there's dozens of highly respected, highly popular women (but, sadly, a lot of them don't blog):
- Christine Churchill - Scottie Claiborne - Jill Whalen (who does blog) - Shirley Tan - Jessie Strichiola - Donna Fontenot (who I got to meet in person for the first time - yay!) - Rae Hoffman - Carolyn & Molly (the MSN Adcenter overlords) - Laura Lippay - Vanessa Fox & Amanda (whose last name changes from time to time) from Google - Elisabeth Osmeloski - SEOmozzers Jane & Rebecca - Debra Mastaler - Anne Kennedy - Alex Bennert - Dana Todd - Heather Lloyd-Martin - Diane Vigil - Sophie Wegat - Karen Sams & Jolena Pettice from TopRank and many more...
Should someone like Philip make an extra effort to go after not just those people who are most popular and well-known, but seek some more diverse opinions, too? I can only say that if it were me, I would do it.
Haha, way to get bit in the ass, Rand.
Philipp said he asked some female bloggers but didn't receive a response, so it's not like he can force them to give their input. Also, like you said, a lot of women on the list you made don't blog, and my point was that there are only a few female SEO bloggers. If more female SEOs blogged about the industry and gave their expert opinion, their voice will be heard and the balance won't be so tipped.
I'll make the same reasoning for blackhat SEOs' points of view: if the information is interesting, it shouldn't matter if you're a black hat, white hat, male, female, donkey, etc. That's why I subscribe to some blackhat and female blogs--not because I feel I should even out my SEO feed, but because I like what the bloggers write about and find value and entertainment in what I read.
Hooray for the SEO Donkey!!!
and he forgets me (again)... the big fan of his yellow shoes! *big dramatic sigh*... I sooooo feel the love!
ok... fake dramatic pouting over -- as always, great points Rand :)
and great post Rebecca! I think though Shelley Powers really took more offense to Phillip's reaction to someone mentioning "no women" in his post. That's what set off the "fury". Like I said in my post, it was his approach that came off as a little rude (to me as a woman).
Look for something more about this coming on SMG...soon!! ;)
Waiting eagerly!
First Rebecca, I hope you heard the hearts breaking worldwide when you said "my boyfriend"... :(
Also, thanks for your article - you inspired a co-worker of mine to get her blog fingers typing! So please read Kimber's post and support the women of SEO
I liked the kaleidoscope analogy...
...and sorry about not being single :P
"Minority issues" bug... especially online. It's hard to say Asians are a minority when China has 34 million bloggers and Technorati only tracks 57 million blogs worldwide. "Minority" is a relative term.
Are there great women SEO bloggers out there? You bet - Kim, Donna and Jennifer Slegg and... uh... hmmm...
Maybe its an issue of visibility? Personally in my "top 3" favorite blogs (that I don't write or manage) is one of the women I just mentioned but honestly women bloggers in SEO are a minority not because we (men) aren't listening but because where the hell are they?
When I was looking for work and filled out online applications and got the "this will not be used to judge your eligibility" form asking if I was male/female and what my ethnic background was I knew I was not getting the job (and indeed I never even got one phone call from these companies). Companies looking for the best minority instead of the best person have a different agenda.
My agenda when reading SEO blogs is getting great information I can use to strengthen my sites and the sites of my clients. Everything else is something else and a distraction to that goal. I don't care if the blogger is male, female, both or neither (there's a great link-bait idea: be the world's first transgender SEO blogger!).
Disclaimers:
On Rebecca who I think is an excellent blogger but comments on SEO were more limited to the SEO culture than "SEO proper" until recently which IMO does not make her a great SEO blogger (male or female).
On Lisadt whose blog is still too new to tell though I have a hunch we'll see great things there.
And I'd like to mention Miriam at Solas Web Design who is an amazing designer and SEO, though her blog is still a bit new and isn't updated often enough (yet!) but I expect we'll see great things there too.
I'll look through Kim's list (and the comments) of female bloggers and see if any of them should be on my list of favorite blogs. But at a glance, I have to say I never even heard of most of them.
I meant a minority in the SEO industry, not in the blogosphere.
Can't argue with you there. I'm not claiming to be an SEO expert or great about blogging about SEO because I've only been in the industry for 10 months and still know relatively little about it. I learn by doing, by reading blogs, and by writing.
I'm not taking shots at you. I love your posts. I think I've threatened Rand a few times about hiring you away at some point. Sure, you'd have to move but you wouldn't have to learn a new name for your boss...
BTW After digging through the list of female bloggers Kim posted I bookmarked two and had two in my semi-regular reading that I didn't know were women. The rest... well "girl power" blogs make about as enjoyable reading for me as "boy power" which is not much at all, really.
No offense taken. I didn't think you were taking shots :)
By the way yourself, I had the same thing happen to me, where I didn't realize that some of the feeds I subscribed to were written by women. My response? "Oh."
girl? Power?
"Companies looking for the best minority instead of the best person"
That form is required by law in some cases, for example local government and particular charities. They try to hire minorities because of the majority of mainstream companies do not and therefore 'majority' apllicants automatically have more opportunities open to them.
The best way to stop reverse discrimination is to stop discrimination.
I was inspired (thank you Rebecca!) to pursue a bigger list, which is now on my blog. I thought it worth mentioning that Philipp has closed the comments on his popular blog posts post. He's invited Shelly Winters to write a follow up.
Should be interesting :)
Gillian, you show such grace. I hope to meet you one day.
That's Shelley Powers, not Winters. Sorry about that! Anyway, her follow up post is supposed to be on sexism in blogs...
Shelley Winters, haha! I was wondering how she found the time to blog, what with swimming through sinking ships and all...
guess I'm a little late on this one, but, HEY! I blog! Just happens to be on a currently unoptimized Yahoo property (not one of mine!):
https://360.yahoo.com/lauralippay
:)
I think quite a bit of it is that it's just assumed that you're male unless you state otherwise. I've been posting on SEO/webmaster forums for about three years now and I still have people who thought I was male the entire time.
part of the "using your sex/gender to promote yourself" bothers me but on another level it doesn't; it could just be seen as a marketer taking advantage of what's available to them, I suppose.
I do think increased visibility would be nice, though. it's rather off-putting when you feel like you're the only woman (or member of another minority) in a group.
Like you said, I think that the 'blog world' is becoming like any other 'work-like' enviornment in life, [mostly] male dominated. I am, as you put it 'a high-maintenance girly girl', but also relate very well to, as you put it 'the fellas,' but even having worked in the tech, Internet and SEO industry for almost 11 years now, many times people, (mostly men), that don't know me or what I do, speak to me like I am Reese Witherspoon from Legally Blonde....it is what it is. I am confident in my knowledge of the industry and my capabilities and that is all that matters. Yes, a little more recognition at times would be nice, but you can't remold the clay...the world has been this way forever and 'blogging' isn't going to change that....
it might help though - small changes usually make the biggest difference :)
Think of the few females as lovely cinnamon spicing up the grey boring porridge of male-dominated blogging.
:)
Heyyyy!
Uhh, you're female?
LOL! He is, but only on weekends...
Hei hei Rebecca, Good post. I understand Kim's frustration but I totally agree that a SEO bloggers success should have nothing to do with whether they are male or female.
It might be that we are minority in terms of the whole industry but I don't think it will stay like that. In fact most people I have met personally from the SEO community so far have been female. I recently met Amanda Davie from a search company called i-Level, she is Head of Search for her company. She has been very successful and is being interviewed left right and centre by trade press, on and offline. She is not being noticed because she is female, but because she knows her stuff!
I'm very much like you Rebecca, a bit of a tomboy and have always showed intrest in figuring out technical issues. As a child my speciality was fixing video players...I just took it all apart and put it back together again. Once a geek always a geek, no matter what gender you are =)
Hmmm, so that's why I took an immediate liking to you! ;)
Hello, it's nice to see that someones looking out for are interests. keep it up.
I completely diagree with the fact that their aren't many female bloggers. While there may not be a ton of female SEO bloggers, I think the number of female bloggers are vastly underestimated. There are tons of blogs like FallenSouffle.com where they are owned and operated by female bloggers.
oi Evan, are you insinuating female bloggers only blog about food and such like? Did I mention I have a red belt in kick boxing??
I think I am in love.
You're not the onyl one...
I see your point (and hopefully you're excluding terrible MySpace/Facebook/Livejournal blogs). I'm really only focusing on prominent female SEO bloggers here.
haha no I'm not insinuating that at all, just pointing out that there are tons of female blogger dominated niches.
SEO blogging is already and over saturated marketplace, so if you are not one of the first movers its harder to get your name out there, male or female.
Tech industries usually always start off as male dominated, not as much now as in the past, so I can see why there is a gap in female SEO Blogs. How many female engineering blogs are out there?
I see your point, and I agree with it (mostly), but I have to give Kim kudos for her post anyway. Someone has to occasionally support women for their accomplishments. We don't have to live our lives every single day on the women bandwagon, but an occasional shout out for us is a good thing. Thanks, Kim, and I'm glad to have obtained a few new blogs to add to my feed reader. Go women! :)
Content isn't king after all.
Women bloggers only blog about fluffy rabbits, hello kitty merchandise and Bon Jovi anyway.
you are so cruising for a bruising carfu =)
easily aggitated me? Nah....
Bon Jovi?!
carfeu is European, he thinks Bon Jovi is still in the charts..
Actually I just like to say Bon Jovi.
So... speaking of Bon Jovi, I have this great little story about...
[Actually, Mozzers, it's Si who has the story. Ask about it at the Mozzer Thanksgiving table.]
Nice post, I've enjoyed reading your work while in England!
Hey, thanks. Imagine how much better my work would be if I were in Bali...Rand? ;)
Remember what you've been learning, Rebecca, market the idea of Rand sending you to Bali. Find the win-win that will make him want to send you, and indeed, almost insist you go... :)
...which is why I am not a regular blogger at this point. I run a company with some of the best SEO in the world, you included. But, as I readily say to clients, "You're talking to the Chief Cook and Head Bottle Washer, which means you've exceeded my technical expertise. I'm going to refer you to my wizards for technical questions." And that's where you get to take over. We all do what we do best. From banking to growth management, staffing to contracts, pricing to legacy issues, I'll blog til the cows come home. But here, we blog about SEO. And you're doing a great job of it! Here, my job is to keep out of your way.
Care to come make us some coffee? :p Nothing annoys me more than PC stupidness, like people getting turned away from jobs because the company needs to show it's diverse by employing more minority groups etc...
Drives me up the wall. Anyway, hope all is good.
...Seriously, if you want to come make me some coffee though...
I don't drink coffee, so I don't know how to make it. You'll end up chewing grinds and wondering why you expected slow-roasted but instead taste something that can only be described as "footy" :)
"It tastes of feet"
:D
I'd forgotten about that. We'll turn you into a coffee person yet... Rand, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to coffee-ize Rebecca. This message will self destruct in 10 seconds...
Tea is the way to drink a caffienated beverage in class!
no - not female. Just one point. The best will always thrive, and they also blaze a path for others to follow.
I agree wholeheartedly. Gender should be irrelevant in a professional environment.
Should be yes Elena. Is? not always.
This completely discounts years of various oppression. It is easier for a middle aged white male to do well. It's harder if that male is young, harder again if the individual is another race, gender or creed.