But now it's time to make an appearance writing here on the blog.
I have unsurprisingly been getting assigned quite a lot of the internationalisation issues (or should it be internationalization? That joke never gets old). There has been one question that has been coming up again and again so I thought I'd put my mind to answering it publicly.
The issue I want to talk about is geo-delivery, i.e., delivering different content to different visitors depending on their geographic location. When you don't know more information about the visitor (from sign-up information, cookie, etc.), the only way of doing this is through determining their location from their IP address. Whenever you start talking about selectively delivering content based on IP address, the topic of cloaking inevitably comes up.
Google has just this week written up their definitive guide to when IP delivery is cloaking. The key take-away message from this post is:
Googlebot should see the same content a typical user from the same IP address would see.Now hold on a second.
You know things are going down a dubious route when you find yourself writing 'many of my closest friends are American' to head off criticisms of xenophobia. But they are. I love you guys. But the analogy I want to use to explain the problem with this definition of cloaking is very similar to the way US sporting events are billed as world championships. Didn't America win the World Series again last year?
Now, I can assure you that there is a world outside the US. Over in the UK live some 60 million people whose first language is English. Quite a few people search (particularly for business stuff) across Northern Europe in English. And of course, and there are our friends down under and in SA as well. This, coupled with the ubiquity of the .com domain name extension across the English-speaking world (if only .us was used for all US sites) means that search engines can have a hard time working out which results to show to who.
We see a lot of cases where UK-based companies are ranking in google.com and not in google.co.uk because they have tripped some filter that sees them as not 'UK enough'. Similarly, we get a lot of questions from US-based companies looking to expand into the UK and wanting to know how they should go about it.
I want to target a specific country
Starting with the basics of international targeting, in this case, it is important to let the search engines know where your business is based in as many ways as possible. These might include:
- cc tld for your domain (e.g., .co.uk)
- local hosting
- physical local address in plain text on every page of your site
- Google Webmaster Central geo-targeting setting
- links from local websites
- etc.
However, this isn't the end of the story - if you have an established .com domain, you might want to leverage your domain weight to target the new territory rather than starting from scratch.
The main point of this post, therefore (and the reason for the 'World Series' jibes above) was to point out the pitfalls of one particular approach that I see suggested surprisingly often by businesses considering this problem.
How to avoid the 'World Series' ranking issue
What I see suggested is:
Why don't we create multiple versions of our site and determine where the user is in the world before either delivering the appropriate content or redirecting them to the appropriate place in our site (or even a sub-domain hosted in the target country)The problem with this is that the spiders' view of the world is surprisingly like like that of the baseball commissioner - they are all US, all the time.
Because the major search engines spider from the US, their IP addresses will be US in your lookup and they will therefore be delivered the US content. This problem is exacerbated if you are going even further and geo-delivering different language content, as only your English language content will be spidered unless you cloak for the search engine bots.
This kind of IP-delivery is therefore a bad idea - you should make sure that you do not blindly geo-deliver content based on IP address as you will ignore many of your markets in the search engines' eyes.
So what is the right way of doing things?
The best practice remains one of two approaches, depending on the size and scale of your operations in the new countries and how powerful / established your .com domain is.
If you have strong local teams and (relatively speaking) less power in your main domain, then launching independent local websites geo-targeted as described above (hosted locally, etc.) is a smart move in the long-run.
If, on the other hand, you only have centralised marketing and PR and / or a strong main domain, the best practice is to create localised versions of your content on either sub-domains (uk. au., etc.) or in sub-folders (/uk/ /au/ etc.).
Either the sub-domains or sub-folders approach allows you to set your geo-targeting in Google Webmaster Central, and under either method you have to be equally careful of duplicate content across regions. In the sub-domain example, you can host the sub-domain locally if you choose, while in the sub-folder case, more of the power of the domain filters down.
It's a shame the right answer isn't more clear-cut. Hopefully we will see one way of doing things become significantly better than the others over the coming months, in which case hopefully you'll hear it here first.
In the meantime, happy language issues...
Wait, there are people who live outside of America?
I'd say "nice work", Will, but I'm afraid this whole SEOmoz Associate thing has already gone to your head, so I'd better not :)
what works really well is this..
do this on your contact page... trust me it works wonders on geolocation and can even bypass out of country hosting..
open and closing html tags with the word "address" just like you would close a bold tag, etc..
<address>
company namePHYSICAL addressTelephone number with area code written (XXX)xxx-xxxx
</address>
.com experiementation results :
before we moved the website from canada to US.. the notation above worked wonders.. took us from 53 to 27 on the results in 2 weeks.
doing google geolocation moved us from 75 to 63 in 2 weeks.
moving server from canada to minnesota took us from 27 to 12 in 4 weeks.
great tip thx
Nice one bruv! (I am going to help contribute to the UK takeover of SEOmoz by sprinkling some british slang in my comments...innit)
In addition to getting local links I would add getting regional directory listings in DMOZ and Yahoo UK Directory, as well as other UK specific directories.
Also it's probably worth mentioning that while most linkbuilding posts/guides talk about the importance of .edu links, in the UK the equivalent is .ac.uk which may be helpful to those trying to geotarget for the UK who may not be familiar with this.
I stumbled across this post earlier today on this very subject which has one or two other ideas for ranking well in Google UK.
Cheers geeza... ;)
World Series? Is that anything like the FIFA World Cup?
Kind of. Except the World Cup is for a proper sport, and more than one country takes part. Other than that, it's pretty much identical.
Ah, I see! Thanks.
Speaking of proper, I noticed you picked up a hundred "proper points", in one evening to pass up Scott. Congrats!
Cheers.
Really? I proper missed that.
Just looked - I am indeed above Scott on points but something is keeping me at #5.
Hmmmmm.....
;)
I believe that in this thread, the "more than one country takes part" thing is the important bit...
Although I also find baseball horrifying (covers for the thumbs down).
Hey Jane - rounders is a perfectly acceptable sport. For girls.
*ducks*
Explaining why you're so good at it then!
I heard that....
Why does Google care where your site is hosted?
For a small site, people may often be happy with a managed, shared server - and will buy a package that represents best value. From what I've seen in the past, this will tend to be in the US - without realising the headache it will give them if they try to rank in google.co.uk
If a Belgian company prefer to stick their site on a box in Redbus, surely "the big little g" can't hold it against them?
Why?
Google KNOWS where YOU are...
so they try to give you the closest content on their "distributed architechure" map..
when you search from the UK, do you actually think your search query goes all the way to mountain valley, california to then come back and give you a result?
FYI.. nope.
there is a google server by YOU that processes the request and tries to give you a combination of distance/pagerank/bounce rate/domain authority/website content.
damn, i'm starting to answer questions.. people may learn i'm not an a$$hole.. i'd better stop and go back into hiding..
But I think what Rob is saying is that this is not necessarily a particularly good signal. Take it to extremes - if you are looking for something in London, you don't necessarily want websites hosted in London - they could be in Birmingham, Manchester, wherever. So why the country-level fascination?
Agreed it does strike me as odd that google base things on IP when even tracing back ip's is so inaccurate (esp within countries as they'll often go to a hub). With how small business base things on a cost level there's several sites i know of that have hosted in the US because it was cheap. Google should realise this..
will..
everything i've seen OUTSIDE if the US is based on domain..
when i was in amsterdam this weekend my results.. were pretty much based on www.google.nl, so it was the netherland first then UK, then US.
Valid point Rob. I think the best way out is personalized search. Imagine a drop down menu before the Google Search button.
Nice idea. Still though, there's a problem of how Google decide where your site is. I think they shouldn't take server location as a strong indicator of where you site 'belongs'.
In the meantime, reckon there's be any market for eg: a server in a US data center that fooled google into thinking it was actually in the UK? Then I could get hosting at US prices, with none of the search engine localisation trouble.
I think that any attempt to 'fool' the engines is likely to be pretty short-lived. Check out the description of RIPE in my recent post on international search (I know it's not exactly the same, but you should get the point).
I would have given you more thumbs up if I could for the phrase alone:
And one (not too smart I must admit) question:
do you also think <address> tag mentioned above helps with Google?
Hi Ann, I don't think it can hurt - but we have seen G especially be pretty good at picking up the address from factors like postcode / zip code etc.
Ann..
the only reason i posted it is because it DOES...
feel free to see what google has to say.
https://code.google.com/apis/kml/documentation/kmlreference.html
<address> A string value representing an unstructured address written as a standard street, city, state address, and/or as a postal code. You can use the <address> tag to specify the location of a point instead of using latitude and longitude coordinates. (However, if a <Point> is provided, it takes precedence over the <address>.) To find out which locales are supported for this tag in Google Earth, go to the Google Maps Help. there ya go.....
ok.. for any of the UK folks.. is anyone using <point> on there contact page?
that would work better than the previously named <address> tag..
-paisley
p.s. as of march, 2008... the US/UK/CA flip rates are 6 weeks google and 9 weeks yahoo!
Hi Will - how's the hangover? I thing google have massively oversimplified an issue that webmasters need to put serious thought into. We find our UK sites crawled by US bots all the time (including googlebot) so just delivering the US content without putting any thought into it would be a disaster!
Good post Will,
I remember the confusion that IP-location-detection can bring; when I worked at Shell (in the UK) I was often served with Dutch language versions of webpages, I think we had servers/cache/something in Holland.
Another tip that someone (you?) had mentioned was to add your UK business to Google Local UK, to let them tie your physical address and URL together.
Would getting your site listed in the right region of DMOZ be useful too?
dmoz. yes...
dmoz = google directory..
also.. HUGE!!!
Yahoo! Dir UK.
Oh yeah. How did I forget Google Local?? Good point...
Before I switched my ISP, many sites thought I was from Saarbruken, Germany and I had to play that "find-the-language-switch" game. Sometimes I couldn't find that switch. Heck! I don't speak German and I've never been to Germany!
Didn't have time to read the article but gave you a thumbs up for your mad bowling and pool skills!! ;-)
Well thank you. Wait. Didn't I lose to you at both?
Not pool. You are a mad dog at pool.
good post! internationalisation is a question that comes back every time with the big accounts. Apart from serving the right website to the right country, most of them do not know how to handle those duplicate contents, for instance a product's description remains the same, whether you live in Sydney, Singapur, London or NYC.
Hey Will,
Good post - and as SEO and globalization spread only gets more important for us too look at this! A few good tips up above, localise your links - from dmoz, relevant sections of wiki (in language or local variant,) google local (although its scraped so many directories user's lucky to find your entry) local directories (although its harder to seperate genuine from spam now days) also local governement and education sites (a time to not listen to the moz page strength tool as .gov and .edu are american!). Also being friendly to bloggers/social sites in your regions good as well, due to links from language sites or local sites to your site (localisation).
To the domain debate... aghh!! Whilst it sounds great to have a .co.uk .com .us .de etc - practically its not always sensible and google can pull some crazy stunts - esp with duplicate content and linking problems. Also most people assume its a .com and thus i'm leaning towards the widget.com/french & widget.com/english & widget.com/US (if neccessary) as this solves a lot of your dup. content issues and gives you domain strength.
I see no reason why google shouldnt trust the domain specification in webmaster tools more in the future... hopefully :)
Of course if you own your own servers - but cant afford servers in different countries one solution is to break up your IP addresses into blocks : so 1 ip address for each continent. Then google sees a difference between your IP addresses.
Re: .gov, .mil, .edu etc: If those are indeed given more weight than your average .com, it stands to reason that .ac.uk, .govt.nz etc sites should be weighted accordingly. Are they? I have no idea. And how should / would Google figure out which countries and which institutions it should credit and which it shouldn't? Links to those sites? Manual weighting?
SEOs outside the US: do you consider links from these types of non-US-sites to be as exciting as we seem to believe .edu links are in the US?
We've got a client with a lot of .ac.uk links and it certainly seems to help...
Not really.
I think the only interest anybody had in them was when you lot (Americanos) started talking of how good these type of sites were.
We (Brits) were using the old fashioned, 'will it get me sales' thang as oppose to the authority/pr stuff for much longer I believe :-)
Born and brought up in Wellington, New Zealand, thanks!
lol was just tongue in cheek of course.
I think the whole seo community is USA biased for various reasons and that was where my comment was directed as oppose to individuals.
:-)
It definitely does, .ac.uk links make quite a diffference.
Again a lot of this comes down to the number of searchers that use area specific searches. If you are .com site that wants to target international English speaking clients for example then you have to think about this figure.
For example. I have a business in Spain, my website, like many 'english owned' sites, is hosted in the USA and I rank for my theme in the .com searches and not in the UK only searches.
Half of my business comes from Uk based clients. Google Uk searches have my best conversion rates by a mile. Therefore I should target Uk and concentrate on this quality right as that is where half my cleints are?
This isnt the case tho for various reasons that I think some people may be overlooking.
If a potential client in the Uk is searching for business services over here in Spain would they be likely to use the google Uk only search command? Personally I just dont think so. I think in the majority of cases a searcher that searches in business related niches is going to use the .com because who wants any of the top results filtered out?
Yes this can certainly be site/niche specific but in this particular example I know that it is likely to be a search from a regular office based search user that with experience and know how is going to be using the .com for all searches unless he/she then specifically wants to filter to Uk only.
So a lot of this business that is from Uk clients have used the .com and after closer inspection the Uk only searches are only worth about 10% of incoming enquiries/leads/sales. Quite a big skew from the initial reactions of some to target the Uk only.
So I think it would be folly to target the percentage of 'new, inexperienced, one off users' that use the local search for internationally relevant results. I do however have a ppc campaign that does only target the Uk.
It is a bit silly that I cannot rank in the Uk of course and yes it would have been great if .com meant worlds best results and .us would have been the usa best etc..
I dont think that there is any easy way around this except trust that users will continue to use google .com for searches. If you have great content and want the world to see it I wouldnt geo anything at the moment in any way personally.
Tell you what does piss me off. Google somehow keep changing my search box here. Always reverting back to .es or personalised search or how the results are displayed. They constantly seem to ignore my changes on start up and revert back to local default. grrrr
In my experience, due to the closeness and seminaries of the US and Canada, most Canadian companies that market to the US would not create two different sites or two different hosts. What has worked well, for Canadian companies is that the primary .com gets hosted on a US based server/IP, then we forward the .ca to the .com and build local links to the .ca. This has helped get rankings in both of Google's generic web search results and Canada only search results. I haven't tried this for other countries to know if this tactic works only for Canada / US or not. Perhaps other's can share?
Ezra...
you can get .com preference in the US for a canadian hosted site in about 12 weeks.
i had weird circumstances though..
a .com and a .net hosted in .CA
we moved the .com to the US but left the .net in .CA
we saw a favoring of the site dwindle on the google.ca side after 6 weeks, however it took about 3 weeks after that to get .com recognition...
in other words..
we were #1-#3 in all 35 terms on google.catreated like a bastard stepchild by .com.
we moved server to us.6 weeks later google geotargeting kicked in..(6 weeks after google webmaster tools rolled geotargeting feature out)
server not in US finally had front page rankings 9 weeks after initial server move.
however... we did also do these things.each page had U.S. address blockprivacy and legal pages linked to us govt. sites instead of .a sites.we made a new template for enitre website that contained an "800" number as well.
good luck
Does anyone here have an estimate of how long it takes for these changes to be recognised? We've tried this on a test site, and the subfolder we geotargeted still hasn't been picked up for that location, about 4 weeks down the line...
*crickets chirp*
Hi Burgo,
I don't have any precise numbers but I think 4 weeks is longer than you would expect. Paisleyseo says above:
Thanks Will (and paisleyseo)... looks like something has gone awry then :(
Will, I was wondering how important hosting location is in this kind of cases. If I target the USA, is it ok to host a site in Canada? I always receive mixed opinions.
Regarding internationalisation, many people use Amazon Affiliate links on their sites but they are never bothered to display different links for visitors from the UK. I click a lot on them and I am always transferred to amazon.com instead of amazon.co.uk... missed revenue opportunities?
honestly... after 5 clients...
MOVE the website to US.
in one case of my client they could not move server due to SSL transactions based on IP address that would change if the server was moved.. (yes i know you could fake it.. but that's IP cloaking.. so a no-no)
I have about 15 things that work and 9 that don't work for canada hosted websites targeting US.
moving works the best.
Can you recommend some good hosting in the US? Thanks!
godaddy is cheap.. decent support.. we use that for smaller clients for bigger clients where SLAs are bigtime important due to SOX we use rackspace..
The problem with going the sub folder route is that you are relying on Google Webmaster Central geotargetting which can be pretty flawed. (DaveN blogged about it).
I still find the best practice to be seperate sites & TLDs for each location. But When you have same language sites you are dicing with duplicate content even when targetting different regions which is shit.
Google should be able to understand the different targetting through WMC (inc sub folder/domain) for same language sites and not penalise dup content.
The main problem we have seen with the seperate sites route is that you multiple the linkbuilding effort required by the number of sites you are hosting. A link to your .com site doesn't help 'domain weight' for your .co.uk (or .de, .it, .es, etc).
This often leads to the .com (the de-facto canonical url for most sites) outranking any local domains (certainly for other English domains such as .co.uk / .com.au)
Totally agree with the link building comment, but unfortunately until Google sorts the geotargetting its the safest route imo.You can link the tlds to pass a little juice but its not going to be the same I know.
Geographical ranking filters are pretty high - so if you manage to set (for example) the .com to target the U.S correctly, you should not have too much of an issue with the .co.uk ranking in the UK. You may still get people linking to the .com when they should be linking to the .co.uk so you need to make the site obvious as to what region they serve.
If your a global PR7/8+ like Amazon then you can forget filters and dominate with a .com in Google.co.uk and not worry. lol
I agree that it can be the safest route. We have a client that had horrible issues with duplicate content and geo targeting which we solved by splitting them onto their local language tlds.
The issue with a site like Amazon is that they don't want the .com to rank in the uk. They have amazon.co.uk which targets us brits with things like prices in pounds. It isn't a good user experience for a search from the uk to return a .com page that has dollar pricing. This is the problem with the separate domain route. You often end up with the .com being so strong that even with any geo filters it still outranks it.
I'm not sure at the moment there is a good answer, there are better answers, and worse answers, but nothing that is trouble free.
Totally agree again.
What amazon do is take a look at the refferer and if its from .co.uk they display a little 'devil wears prada on google.co.uk' message.
So take this serp example-
https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=devil+wears+prada&btnG=Search&meta=
If you navigate straight to the url direct (or from .com) its normal -
https://www.amazon.com/Devil-Wears-Prada-Novel/dp/038550926X
In a lot of cases you can find their .com and .co.uk on the 1st page, so they probably quite like that bit.
"Googlebot should see the same content a typical user from the same IP address would see."
This is exactly the problem that the spider that collects the data for the google.co.uk search results has an American IP address. If the spider behaved like a typical user from that country (i.e. had a UK IP address) then it would be able to see pages that are served using geo-targetting for UK people.
When I search for key phrase 'US tax slab' on Yahoo & Google here in India (on Google.com), it shows me Indian results. Initially I thought this was because it takes US as us and not 'United States' but surpirisingly things don't change even when I search for 'United States Tax Slab'. Google still shows me Indian results. Isn't it obvious, if I am searching for a 'United States Tax Slab', I want American results and not Indian results. Or is it that there are no tax slabs there in US like here in India.
One thing more. Which one inherits the domain's authority better - a subdomain or sub directory. I mean if I have a high authority domain, which one will be more benefited from my domains authority - sub domain or a subfolder?
- Pulkit
subdirectory... unless you have the "www" stripped in webmaster tools, then subdomain.
Good post and good comments about the Amercian 'world' stuff, that irks me sometimes.
Do you have any insight on minimising duplicate content Vs similar languages such as US Vs. UK. Vs. Canadian Vs. others and French Vs. French-Canadian for example?
we have a client that has multiple websites in mutliple languages across multiple countries...
that have a huge presence in scotland.. (co.uk)
the content on eveyr page is the same, except the contact page and the footer which displays the edinburgh address...
so yes it's duplicate content.. but domain and address block make the site "unique content" for the region.
Sounds like you may be treading in dangerous waters. I'm guessing you've been doing that for a while but isn't that a little obvious to the search engines regarding duplicate content?
yes.. we make it obvious on purpose..
by specifically using google webmaster tools.. with two different accounts. (for organic and PPC)
no.
one is a UK website and one is a US website.
two different accounts. also two different hosting setups one is in the US @ RackSpace the other is in the UK @ Demon.
the UK site doesn't show up in .com results and the US site doesn't show up in other results. (that was actually the biggest accomplishment)
- when you set your preference for domain it helps.- when you make sure your contact page and every page has the relevant location info.. (US has US address, UK has scotland address block)- sitemap is also unique because we bust out the contact pages and make sure we use the <address> attirbute.
Seconded, I am also eager to see your thoughts on geo versions of the same site targeting one language...
Hmmm...it seems all the SE's struggle with this...and sure, where the local search results are critically important such as for pizza or plumbers I can see the logic...but, if I'm looking for a honeymoon in Barbados when I live in Oslo, I don't realy want the nearest Norwegian option or if I'm searching for the best restaurant in Hong Kong when I live in Sydney, I probably don't want dim sum from the local chinese takeaway...it seems pretty simple...add a box or check button that says "let me see what the locals see"...too hard Sergei Brin?...to complex Larry Page?...or perhaps, just too easy...
This post here and the one from Google themselves have given us alot of things to change and test on some of our clients here in Australia. Its definitely an issue for us as most Australian companies want to rank for other countries once they have a good foot hold here.
We have generally advised against sub domains, and normally go with TLD, and that has seemed to work good, but not great. We are now experimenting with Geo Targeting in Google as well.
The biggest issue we have had though are some clients with an international service, such as a music site, or blog, that want to rank internationally with one url and not have duplicate content all over the place. That is a lot more tricky to pull off :p
Thats a great post, we are having a nightmare with one site at the moment just not showing up in Google UK
Despite it checking everything on your checklist, apart from being a .com
have you thought about buying the uk domain?
put them in webmaster tools seperately
yes you will have two verify tags
dod geolocaiton seperately
Hi Willcritchlow,
The posting was informative.
Should SEO be country specific? Are there any specific methods to do it?
I laughed at your mention of the so-called "World Series" - it's always bugged me...but then I remembered that we have the same stupidness in the UK with the "World" Snooker Championships... basically just British and a few pesky ex-colonial subjects popping into the Top 10 every now and then.
"Miss Universe" is another misleading advertiser.
Great post relating to a problem I come across as a UK SEO writing content for sports-related websites.
The sporting analogy used relates to a very real problem when it comes to researching sports keywords because my keyword research is generally skewed hugely by US searchers.
For example, "soccer games" shows as being searched for more than "football matches", even though I know most of the UK audience I'm looking to attract would use the latter phrase. Similarly, the majority of searches for "football games" refer to the gridiron version, not the one played with a round ball.
There are plenty of other phrases where it isn't clear whether the keywords being suggested are really as popular in the UK as Google says they are -- and I'm sure this applies in other countries, regions and industries.
I've tried some 'local' keyword research tools but they don't seem too hot -- can anyone recommend a decent site/tool for carrying out localised keyword research?
For some areas you may not need to deliver unique content just different regional information (such as local address, telephone number, pricing).
i think about 50% of website tend to use cloaking in one way or others, it si question when how you will use cloaking... can we live without cloaking?
Yes we can. And 50% is highly overestimated.