The world of SEO has always been a fast moving one, and that can make it difficult to isolate a particular moment of change. Everything is changing all the time. Yet sometimes one looks up and sees a significant difference all around and feels a need to identify the new paradigm.
Well, for my take on things, Dial-a-phone, a leading UK supplier of mobile phones, is the new paradigm of SEO customer. The Head of Online Marketing at Dial-a-phone has some fairly extensive knowledge of SEO. He has worked with multiple SEO providers which in itself an education. But far more notable than this is that he has been a long-term member at some top SEO forums, and is reading the same blogs and reference material as many of the SEO practitioners I know.
Certainly, customers for SEO services have been getting smarter, and more experienced for some time. Increasingly, clients are renegotiating their SEO supplier rather than buying for the first time. Yet Dial-a-phone and others really do seem to exemplify a new level of smarts, a new level of connection with SEO.
For some SEO companies out there, this new breed of SEO smart company is not merely a cutting-edge client. Rather, a client such as Dial-a-phone may be the sharp point of the Sword of Damocles, representing an impending doom for SEO providers who jump into the market with less than enough professional experience.
I know for a fact that Dial-a-phone’s Head of Online Marketing has more SEO experience than many of the SEO companies who might pitch to him. I could even go so far as to say that he has to be acknowledged as a peer by any SEO practitioner. I would greatly pity the average SEO salesman who might attempt to call him with their default sales pitch and with the typical gaps of SEO knowledge.
Dial-a-phone are not unique in respect to a full-on engagement with SEO savvy. One need look no further than Alan Dick of Vintage Tub and Bath. Alan is a regular attendee at all the major SEO conferences, happy to buy dinner for a whole group of us in London at SES in 2005, and more than comfortable chatting in a group that included Danny Sullivan, Rand Fishkin, Dave Naylor, and many others.
I have dropped a mention of the Cluetrain Manifesto before as a piece of essential reading, back when Rand interviewed me here. Well, this is a prime example of why the Cluetrain Manifesto is classed as vital reading. It predicts this very trend, where the customer becomes a peer, and should be treated as such.
So why does this new type of SEO savvy client want an SEO agency at all? The answer should be obvious. I will even go so far as to say that if you can not already guess, and you run an SEO service, then you need to adjust your perceptions and understanding of what you provide. You should understand this instantly, or your future may be bleak.
The new paradigm I am noting is one where companies outsource SEO by choice, not necessity. Where they hire agencies that represent the very best of breed in SEO – experts they might not hire so easily or economically directly. Where the company seeks specialists and strategists, and has all the basics covered in-house.
Dial-a-phone has put two internal Marketing Assistants to work on much of the basic SEO tasks. In addition to handling any of the simpler but time-intensive parts of the SEO work, the Marketing Assistants are also providing significant content. Dial-a-phone has launched their new Mobile Phone Blog using this in-house writing resource, with merely the strategic and practical guidance coming from their SEO agency.
Their in-house IT team were key participants in our initial meetings, and were keen to develop their own custom analytics systems to provide the information that matters, without the data-overload that existing systems seemed to supply, once that need was identified. The important and recurring concept here is teamwork. In this new model, the SEO and the client are not just on the same side, they are part of the same team, and work as a team.
Personally, I am delighted by clients such as these. I believe that SEO can only truly work at its best when the client and the provider work as an effective team. Any supply chain is only as strong as its weakest link. The supply of SEO is no different, and I have seen too many companies that have wasted an investment in SEO through a weak link in understanding, or in performance management.
A client who buys because they do understand what you are going to do is a far stronger partner than one who buys because they do not know, and want to shift all responsibility for understanding. Conventional business wisdom will say that the ignorant client has more dependency, and thus represents a locked-in client. Conventional business wisdom has had its head up its ass through most of the online revolution.
Clients who are ignorant can not tell whether your service is remarkable or not. They simply can not tell whether you honestly offer anything better than the offers made in the emails they will receive from bottom-dollar offshore suppliers apparently offering all their SEO needs at a fraction of the price. But even ignorant clients will learn. Ignorance is not a lock-in. Ignorance is a short-term situation that only goes to prove that the supplier is unable to convey what they do.
For these reasons, I firmly believe that this new model of client will herald the new paradigm of SEO service. A true partnership of SEO client and provider, based on mutual understanding and teamwork, will become the norm in future – and that future is here.
We work with a few clients like this at the company I work for, they would probably not be named a peer by big SEO's, but they do know their stuff, and we're teaching them more and more.
Training your clients like that, even when it's not a service they're paying you for, has a very high return on investment. Their plans for the future will be more solid, and you can continually improve on the SEO of their site(s), increasing their ROI on their investment in you as well.
Fantastic post! I have recently been frustrated by a company who wants me to "implement" the on page SEO but I can't touch the website - this is fine by me as I just throw the info in Word ready for copy and paste.
But the work has yet to be done! I have optimized 2 major sections of the website that would have to bring at least small amounts of additional traffic - combined with other recommendations such as relevant content, they stand a greater chance LOL! But these changes have yet to be implemented *argh*
Why pay an SEO (albeit late every month) and not set aside the time of your resource to implement?
Makes me look forward to upcoming projects which are all about audits - clients want to know how they are doing before they seek an all-out web analytics or SEO campaign.
Thanks for the post, Ammon. You have improved my marketing strategy, once again.
The thing is, though, that it doesn't mean that there will be no less savvy clients. Sure, huge companies are approached by knowledgeable clients, because they have come through the SEO consultants stage. But the newcomers to the game will still have to remove their ignorance by trying to outsource what they can do themselves or using low quality services.
That's why one has still to keep an eye for such people and educate them.
Your post goes well with the question of enjoying how you do business. You either explain what you do and offer all the information you can and see whether they decide to work with you or not (or they come from a referral, ready to work), or you don't work with a client that doesn't understand and value your work.
Ammon the answer to your question "Who needs who?" is very much "they need us". The question is what happens after they have got us!
I think we are probably on the same track but differ over the eventual future destination! I hope one day we can meet and have a leisurely but serious debate on the subject.
I agree, and would love to discuss this further over drinks some time.
For sure, the big agencies have the money, for now, but they are bleeding and know it. The market shifted away from them, and they need us to prevent extinction.
The real question is do we want to be run by people who are facing extinction for the way they run things? Why not wait a couple more years, when even more budget has switched, and their value has declined to a point where it is they that need buying up and revitalising?
This ties directly to Natasha's post just above (Hi Natasha) where she said: "A company who decides to offer SEO without truly understanding the nature of the field is setting the SEO/SEOs that they hire up for failure".
I agree with her completely on this point. But we differ on the second part. I think an agency that doesn't understand, intrinsicly, what SEO/SEM is about will kill any SEO company it buys. They will not buy an SEO company and let it run them. They'll attempt to steer it, and will kill it.
Hmm Ammon, I just realized now that you're in roughly the same timezone as me, being in Europe, that allows for some nice discussions in the morning on seomoz :)
Ammon, great post. You hit the nail on the head when you commented "But more than that, SEO is a marketing activity". And as a marketing activity it needs full buy in from the client and it needs to reflect the clients current marketing strategy. SEO should not be performed in a vacumn.
I think one big fear of SEO firms is that if the clients knows too much they'll move SEO inhouse. But I suspect the opposite is true. A company like Dial-a-phone, understands the value you bring to the process and realizes they should stick to their core competencies and you to yours. An educated customer is a happy customer.
Welcome to SEOMoz Ammon! Kinda surprised you haven't been doing posts on here before, but better late than never.
What I'd like to chip in here, is a pet peeve: Clients who believe they know more than you, and just don't.
Nothing gets my back up more than having a client tell you "Oh but I was talking to someone the other day, and they said that using tables should be fine," or "I'm not appearing for *insert stupid keyphrase here*... why?"
Not mentioning any names, but some of the things I've been asked and *told* by clients... You've got to laugh...
Welcome to SEOmoz, Ammon. :)
Ammon… you know I am a fan, so I’ll leave the "Rah, Rah you’re the greatest," comments out of this comment. :)
I think this article could have also been written about traditional agencies that have decided to expand to SEO because their clients are asking… A company who decides to offer SEO without truly understanding the nature of the field is setting the SEO/SEOs that they hire up for failure… and would be better off hiring/ buying another agency who specializes in SEO.
Ah .. a great post and so very true. We have recently decided to start a search for an SEO partner for our B2B sites.
We have been doing our own optimisation work for 7 years, avidly consuming conferences and utterings of the wise and thus feel all the bases are more than adequately covered. We needed a significant leap in SEO/M and need more than handholding - people withnew ideas. But, oh boy, the pitches we get are cringing despite making it clear in briefing documents we are not laggards. The whole process smacked of charlatanism and snake oil.
The first genuine pitcher will get such a hug!
I am also working on same process.it is very easiest way to working on site.It's also easier when you as an SEO provider work with clients in a niche market, that way you have a firm understanding of your client’s goals and then can accurately relate your SEO efforts to those goals. it is far more difficult and time-consuming to work with clients who don't have an understanding of what you're doing, as then you'll have to work around, or even against, them. [url deleted]
Forgive me resurrecting such an old thread, but since it is still featured in search, I felt an update was worthwhile.
My involvement with Dial-a-phone ceased when they were bought out by Phones4U in Feb 2008. [url deleted]
My direct employer, the Head of Online Marketing at Dial-a-phone, took the sale as a great opportunity to take his payout from his shares and do something of his own.
Much of the work done however remains, such as the use of a blog as a powerful tool to brand the company as connected, knowledgeable, and not just about who has the best deal. Dial-a-phone continue to hold the higher positions for keywords they had always wanted that this, along with other measures, attained.
It's also easier when you as an SEO provider work with clients in a niche market, that way you have a firm understanding of your client’s goals and then can accurately relate your SEO efforts to those goals. Providing educational resources to your clients will alleviate the stress of dealing with a client who has been misinformed or misinterprets SEO technical knowledge.
cya in Chicago.
I have been watching Dial-a-Phone's efforts to SEO for a few months now, and i am going to be interested in how they progress as i also SEO for a mobile phone e-tailer and it took me a year to get to the top of Google for our key high traffic term. I look forward to seeing how they do. However in all my talks with SEO providers i have found out that they cannot effectivly SEO as, to be able to do a good job, you really do have to know the industry and competitor market place to help steer effective SEO tactics
But there's always going to a pyramid and people jockeying to climb it. Not all client companies will have inhouse expertise. In the same way that they buy legal, financial or supply expertise, they will still buy SEO.
Yes, but that is the point -- as an SEO provider, you can *give* them expertise. In fact, it is far more difficult and time-consuming to work with clients who don't have an understanding of what you're doing, as then you'll have to work around, or even against, them. It's not always easy, but then what's needed is to educate them in a way that they can grasp.
I think you'll also find that educated clients also contribute to enhanced creativity.
Welcome Aboard, Ammon! Fine post. We'll be looking eagerly for more from you.
Ammon's posting here now? This blog just got even hotter!
But back to the post (until Rebecca gets some drool-worthy pictures up). Hopefully the future will hit some non-English speaking countries as well. In general there seems to be a disconnect between the importance of internet marketing at large, and specifically SEO when it comes to sites not designed in English. When you explain that SEO will mean modifying parts of the spinning, exploding Flash file that's so cool, and that the return won't be immediately aparent but will be awesome over time (given consistent content and link development), you can almost hear the "well, we'll look into that some other time" thought. Sometimes you hear it because it's actually spoken. I do hope that changes
After all, the more people who know about how cool SEO is, the more sexy guys I'll have to admire (hi Ammon :-*)
Hiya SEOfg ;-)
We have to, however, distinguish whether the non-English clients target their native language search engines or the English language market.
Let's see a sample of clients in Russia.
If they target the English-speaking market, more people (but not all) are very well aware of SE traffic being controlled by Google, which means solid quality work needs to be done and they are alright with it.
When it comes to targetting a local SE, everyone keeps asking for 'rankings for this particular phrase' or 'getting into top 3 or top 10'. And there's no end to these clients. And they want it fast and cheap.
So I'd think the future of SEO clients in Russia is as well behind English-language-speaking SEO clients future as is the whole Internet marketing (I wouldn't call it SEO/SEM now, really).
The responsibility of increasing the knowledge level lies on SEO/SEM/IM people alone - who else would teach them, then? The crooks or other less savvy 'get me to top 10' clientelle?
Great blog post, Ammon!
You're right Ammon, in the mean time, there's also a growing number of prospects who are aware of SEO, that means that charlatans will get a hard time turning that kind of people into customers :)
Absolutely.
The charlatans, or even those who simply aren't really of professional standard yet, are in for a tougher future. However, it will still be a while before they become extinct sadly.
I still get those nonsense emails telling me that my sites can't be found in Google. But then, last I heard, Google was still getting those emails too. :)
Very, very good piece. This is most certainly where the future lies.
Thank you.
Hi Ammon,
Great to see you blogging on SEOmoz, it's the place to be =)
Very good post, and I totoally agree with you. This is the new and "better" breed of SEO clients. One of my major clients Powwownow, who are a conference calling company is such a client. Their Managing Director has a very good understanding of SEO, I would even go as far as to say he has taught me a few things. Working together with this client has produced my best search engine rankings so far. It's a joy working with someone that really appreciate what we have achieved. It really makes a difference!
I am also working to educate all my other clients on exactly what I do, I don't think revealing what I do to get them results will loose me the client. I think it works in our advantage to educate our clients.
Hey Lisa, did you figure out your important decision yet?
If it was a decision as to whether to flirt outrageously with an older, bearded SEO, perhaps one who lives near the sea, then I'd advise deciding to do it.
Darn, did I say that out loud?
yes finally made a decision. I wrote you an email Rebecca =)
Ammon is an SEOmoz poster?!
Congrats go out though I'm really not sure who will get the most out of this - BK or Rand!
Welcome to the moz community Ammon. Good job Rand.
I'm an honorary mozzer :)
...because you guys let me be an honorary Fresh Egger for two weeks!
No, because Ammon's knowledge of SEO could kick me up and down the block any day of the week.
Sigh...joke, Rand? You're no fun :(
You still need an avatar. You can "borrow" mine if you like...
;)
Over the 24 months I have seen Ammon's observations increasingly frequently too. However not as frequently as the number of times I have found myself working with or for established media agencies who have been approached by their clients to provide 'new media' services including SEO and SEM.
At the moment the relationship is symbiotic with our technical know how and their creativity providing their increasingly sophisticated client's needs.
In the long term I see a media agency future. They have taken everything else on board in the past like TV advertising for example and I expect them to do the same with the web eventually.
Expect to see the better SEO/SEM companies being bought out by the agencies in the near future would be my prediction.
There's a lot of companies banking (literally) on just that, duz. There's many an established SEM company, on either side of the Atlantic, that has a massive 'for sale' sign invisibly dangling over it. Many of these companies are being grown specifically to sell to the media agencies.
But let's do a quick reality check for a second. Refer to the cluetrain manifesto once more. Aren't those the same big media companies who've been asleep at the helm for so long that Internet Marketing has already overtaken Newspaper advertising, Radio Advertising, Cinema Advertising, and is carving a very noticeable chunk out of the market for TV advertising?
Yup.
Who needs who? Even more importantly, why do they need them?
13th place for "mobile phones" in google.co.uk.
Not a bad start.
1st place m8 ;-)
My organization has a similar model, except that the strategy/specialist is in-house and we outsource the services (link building, keyword research, some coding, etc.).
My experience was similar in that I started out as a marketing manager hiring SEO firms, learned a lot from them, started learning on my own (I've been lurking here for over a year =P) and eventually was asked to spearhead the SEO efforts for my current employer.
As SEO becomes more mainstream, I think you'll see a lot more people in positions similar to mine.
Awesome post Ammon,
I'm glad that you brought these points up. In many cases there seems to be a huge disconnect between client and provider. You said:
"Ignorance is a short-term situation that only goes to prove that the supplier is unable to convey what they do."
So do you feel that its the SEO consultants responsibility to make sure the client is on the same page? In many cases, it seems that what you described above (the SEO savvy client) is the exception to the rule. And most clients may not have the time or ability to fully understand whats going on.
I think it is everyone's responsibility - both the client and the outsource - to ensure that the relationship works most effectively and efficiently.
But more than that, SEO is a marketing activity. A marketing strategy must come from within, and be completely integrated with everything the company says and does, internally and externally. No SEO can really do an exemplary marketing job from the outside looking in. They need to integrate and be involved.
This is where I come in - bridging the gap between the brand and the product and the packaging and the image and the web... especially the web. Current clients are like the ones you descibed Ammon, where they know about SEO but want someone to guide them or do some of the "dirty" work. I think it's great fun and helping my bottom line as well.
I just want to thank everyone for such a warm reception. So to all those to whom I have not directly replied, Thank you very much.
Hi Ammon, I hadn't even realized when i read your post that you are in fact new to SEOmoz, you just blended right in ;)
Good post, but very ugly website. If Dial A Phone is the future, I think ill have to switch to VOIP.
Welcome to the blog, Ammon. It's great to have you here! Like the others, I'm a fan of this post and a fan of the concept. As a consultantcy, there's nothing better than having a capable, dedicated partner who can talk SEO & web marketing at a high level. We've recently started work on two campaigns that are in this camp, and the interaction is terrific.
Thank you, Rand. I consider it an honour to be here.
(Unless I am Michael M's replacement, in which case I'm mortified, alarmed and horrified.)
Not only is that involvement great for consultancy type SEO agencies like ours, Rand. I think the outsource link-builders, or copywriters, or any other outsource benefit from it even more (if a genuine value service).
I think Loongtim who commented above could verify that his campaigns work all the better for being able to fully understand what his agents are doing, and for what value.
That’s a lot of “SEO” words… :-)
introfini
Great posting... I get this question all of the time. I am a highly educated customer who expects great things out of my vendor. Having spoken at events like SES, Ad:tech and Frost & Sullivan people ask all the time... Why do you need an agency? Why not bring it all in house? I say an outside expert opinion is always good.
"But even ignorant clients will learn"
I think I'm going to have that tattooed on the back of my hand.
Only yesterday I saw yet another small businessman's eyes glaze over as I began to explain to him why his website would never appear on page one for the competitive terms terms he wants simply because he paid some relative to throw up a few pretty pictures and put the name of his business in some h1 tags at the top of the page.