Yesterday I spoke at the Shop.org Online Marketing Workshop. I had previously spoken at a Shop.org summit in Las Vegas last September, and Larry Joseloff invited me and my fellow panelists back for another session. Our topic was "Keeping the Customers in Focus: Customer-Centric Search and Affiliate Marketing." Allan Dick from Vintage Tub and Bath moderated, Alan Rimm-Kaufman talked about keeping paid search ads consistent with user expectations, Ken Jurina discussed how to do keyword research, I covered some on-page recommendations that are good for both users and search engines, and Todd Friesen went over reputation management. We all crafted our presentations around a common product, an Under Armour cross trainer shoe. I personally thought the session was pretty solid, with all of the speakers doing a good job of segueing their advice with common retailer issues.
However, this session, much like the one I spoke at for the last Shop.org event, was met with a quiet, blank-faced audience, polite applause, and one question during the Q&A. It's a weird sort of vibe, especially since I'm used to speaking at search-centric conferences (SES, SMX) where audience members pack into the room, furiously type or jot down notes, pepper off several questions, and rush the stage afterwards to further pick the panelists' brains.
I enjoy going to the Shop.org conferences--it's a different atmosphere, there are different attendees, a different focus, etc. But I can't help but feel like a fish out of water when I'm there. I'm not sure if the audience is disinterested in SEO, doesn't understand what it is, understands what it is but doesn't get how it can benefit their site, doesn't place any importance on SEO, or what. Either way, I get the impression that SEO tracks are met with a resounding "meh."
So, here's where I ask you guys your input. Are any of you retailers? If so, what are you hoping to glean from attending Internet marketing conferences? How could SEO be incorporated in a way that would grab your attention? If you're not a retailer, try putting yourself in one's shoes. How could an SEO track be interpreted as relevant and useful? I mean, we all know the importance of SEO, but that's because we do it for a living. I just want to get to know a retailer's mentality so that if I speak at a conference like this again in the future, I can deliver a presentation that will really capture the audience's attention and be relevant for them.
By: Rebecca Kelley
Retailer Expectations at Online Marketing Conferences
Events
The author's views are entirely his or her own (excluding the unlikely event of hypnosis) and may not always reflect the views of Moz.
I'm an online retailer. I also happen to know a bit about SEO (and there's a whole lot more that I don't know..)
I haven't attended one of these conferences, but here's what I think...
- First, these guys are here for 1 reason, to make more money. To get the jazzed up, it's a lot like writing ad copy. You have to keep asking the question "so what" until you figure out the words that make them lean on the edge of their seat. At this point you are most likely explaining things at a very high level.
- Once you figure out how to make them lean on the edge of their seat, you have to give them some "takehomes". You have to explain a few of those high level ideas in a good amount of detail, but in such a way that the non-SEO can understand.
You could also address issues about the current online market, and how you can add value by adding information. That way you don't always compete on a cost basis. That should get people jazzed up about increasing their profit margains. Even though it's not totally SEO related, these people understand business strategy (or at least you HOPE they do!!). Figure out a way to tie that into SEO (maybe by having your meta description tags say something about your awesome warranty, or something).
In the end, if you have a success story, throw that in there. That gets people excited. Put it into a non scary context. "Our client learned 10% of the stuff I know, and that was 100% more than his competitors. He now dominates google for his target keywords! You don't have to be an EXPERT to make this work." Something like that.
I can't speak for everyone, but if I went to a session at a conference and I learned that stuff, I'd stand up and clap.
*that was supposed to be an indent, not a quote, but whatever... you know what I mean.
Great insight, Nick, thank you. I'll definitely keep this in mind for my next retailer conference presentation. I'll try to marry my presentations with the explicit money making angle that retailers are expecting.
Not JUST making money, but also the fact that not many people know SEO, so knowing just about ANYTHING can land you ahead of your competitor.. That's the exciting part for me anyways.
That's a really good point. Angle it as a competitive advantage.
This is an excellent point and one I've been thinking about a lot lately. Too many conference talks and seminars advertised as "howto's" turn out to be thinly veiled sales pitches.
You need to explain things SIMPLY (dont give an overview of every latest trend i the SEM industry, just focus on a few easily digestible points) and GIVE VALUE - the 'takehome' tips you mentioned. Too many SEM speakers are reluctant to 'share their secrets' as if it will make their jobs redundant, and instead portray SEM as a mystifying art that you need an 'expert' (ie, yours truly) to come and solve for you.
But actually I think if you get someone who is clueless about SEO to digest just ONE idea that they can go away and do and see the results of, they are more likely to think of you as the expert to turn to when they have budget to spend.
I've spoken to both an ecommerce retailer as well as to a the person in charge of SEM for a large software company. When asked how they distribute their search marketing budget, both said that the majority of their budget is directed towards PPC campaigns, and a minor budget is set aside for SEO.
The only reason I mention this is that it emphasizes what's most important to the organizations. When I dug further on why this was so, the responses were similar in that the ROI for paid search was much more tangible than the ROI for organic search efforts.
So to answer your question on how to engage retailers when discussing SEO...without knowing the content of your presentation...a suggestion would be to provide case studies of how organic search optimization increased revenues and making the linkage between the two would likely be a topic of interest for them.
Either that or give'em some really good schwag ;)
Great tip, thanks. We kind of went through almost a hypothetical site review of Under Armour--perhaps individual case studies would have been more warmly received,
As a fellow Shop.org presenter, I know exactly how you feel! Mitch Joel who did a 2 hour Web 2.0 workshop after our panel on 'control' also said how blank the crowd was. What we don't hear from up on stage is the affirmitive responses from the back of the room. They are there, just quiet.
I'm not sure why the Shop.org crowd is question adverse. When I presented in Vegas, there were LOTS of questions and interactions. The key was to ask them questions - "Has anyone seen XYZ done successfully?" If there is a nod, follow up with them and ask who. It gets them verbalizing things. Once a few people do it, the whole audience seems more willing to put themselves out there. There are also friendlies in the audience (people you know, partners, other speakers, etc.) - ask questions you know they will answer. i.e. I know Rebecca from SEOmoz has done some research on conversions of organic vs paid listings - is there somewhere everyone can go to see that study? Do you have any numbers off hand? etc...
I've also seen a lot of companies take new employees and "baptize them by conference". If I had a dollar for every time I sat at a table and someone said, I just started at ABC retailer or I am new the the marketing department at...
I've also met loads of people who are new to their respective company and are being sent to a conference. Thanks for the feedback--I'm glad to have heard some insight from a fellow presenter, if only to confirm that I'm not just a crazy fool. :)
I currently work for a retailer, and I haven't had a whole lot of experience with SEO, seeing as I'm still learning and familiarizing myself with it. Maybe I can shed some light as to what we may be thinking.
I attended SMX West in the hopes of learning something useful that I can use in my efforts to SEO for my company. I remember the most memorable experience and learning opportunity was discussing and being edumacated by Rand as well as a presentation by Dale Hursch from SmartSearchMarketing. Both of these guys actually explained the bottom down reasons for SEO and how it will help me improve for my company.
Everyone else doing presentations and setting up booths were looking to talk to other SEOs and to people who were assumed to eb SEO professionals. My knowledge and perhaps the knowledge of those in the Shop.Org conference is limited. I'm still trying to figure out how to label my nofollw or if I should even do that, since my bosses dont see the immediate need for SEO. I know... pretty ridiculous. But they dont see how the internet will make them loads of money because everyone they associate with, have 'real business' brick-and-mortar companies.
Perhaps approaching it by trying to explain and showing how SEO will increase their earnings would be better. Someone trying to explain how to keyword and content optimize for a PPC campaign will bounce right off my head.
I think what they'd be more interested in would be specific examples of things they are not doing on their websites that can drive more traffic and ultimately money. I personally love before and after videos or examples. Dale showed us an example of an un-SEOd product download page that required information, and an example of an SEOd one along with the positive results.
I hope you can understand my ramblings. Just in summary, addressing these people as those who don't understand what SEO can do, rather than how to optimize their SEO might be a better approach?
Rebecca, I think you should not worry about retailers being not too enthusiastic. You dealt with passionate people on SES/SMX and your expectations are higher wherever you go now.
People are definitely afraid of asking "obvious" questions because they may not be familiar with SEO, as some people mentioned here. Retailers come to the conference to find solutions and, as NickB wrote, a few practical advices may open their minds and they can get excited about opportunities that SEO brings to their business.
@wrttnwrd: smaller retailers are great. I work with a client who used to be an assistant restaurant manager. One day he opened an online shop with jewelry and got so excited about SEO, that he changed a job and now works for an agency on organic search and PPC. But he is young, open-minded and has his own business. It is easier to be enthusiastic.
@rebecca: I believe that with small changes in the way you speak at shop.org, you will be able to make you audience more passionate about the topic and they will feel more confident to ask questions
Rebecca,
I am guessing that people have blank glazed faces because SEO is outside of their knowledge and their radar. Generally, people who attend retail conferences do not program their websites. It's like trying to teach your elderly grandmother, who grew-up with a washboard, how to program the HD-DVD to record BSG.
Typically, retailers are narrow-focused on the 'Sales & Conversion' audience. Treating search engines like an audience and having a search engine marketing plan is akin to mounting a voyage to Venus.The idea of landing on Venus is exciting and advertourous. It's the stuff of dreams.
I suggest swapping the 'focus' of your presentations away from tickling the search engines just below the navel to getting consumers to spew great green gobs of money. You'll still talk about the same things, just shift the 'end result' from high rankings to 'increased traffic and sales.' That is a concept they can rally behind.
A Lesko suit might help too.
Cheers!
Haha, I'll be sure to dress like the Riddler next time.
I really want to give retailer audiences the benefit of the doubt in terms of SEO knowledge, but maybe I will keep things basic but case study/results-focused just to be sure.
Perhaps it's the dull "I have no idea what's going on" nod. People are typically frightened when they don't know enough - frightened that the question they have might sound stupid. I know I attended a web apps conference recently and was frightened to ask some questions because I thought I might be shunned by the audience of presenters (the question was in regards to marketing). So lighten it up, serve drinks before hand and slip something in it.
I totally know the "fish out of water" feeling. Here in Boulder there are tons of Web technology meetings and startup events - with really brilliant people - but they aren't into search or marketing very much. Or if they are, they don't have a lot of passion for it. It'a not a bad thing, it's just a totally different vibe than the Digg / SEOmoz / Marketing Sherpa / domain development reality that enthralls me.
This sounds like one huge opportunity
Online retail margins are very low, so the people are typically going to be very unhappy to begin with; or psychotic like Brent Payne. There's no in between. ;)
All kidding aside, I understand exactly what you're talking about and I do think that just because the audience response appeared "meh", doesn't necessarily mean that they were unimpressed or disinterested. Sometimes on panels such as these, there is a great deal of information to absorb and it leaves the novice feeling a bit overwhelmed and unqualified / uncomfortable to give feedback or present valid questions.
On the other hand, if it was an early morning presentation in Las Vegas, they may have been out late the night before - drinking and gambling. No kidding.
Overall though, it sounds as though you had a pretty action-packed session that any retail marketer involved in online marketing would derive value from.
Beyond that, without seeing the actual content of the presentation and knowing the specific audience demographics, it would be hard to make recommendations. Did the shop.org people not ask the audience to complete a post panel survey?
Additional thumbs to undercoverseo, NickB and for Rebecca being so transparent to lay this out for conversation!
Ecommerce retailers struggle to do it all, to understand it all. I've been training a few clients to do it themselves. SEO is often overwhelming, and they need to understand psychology, conversion, how to write for the Web, some HTML, etc. Input I've received:
It appears many don't see SEO as part of the sales channel or how it helps with branding.
Most retailers really know their business and try to apply sales methodology from brick-and-mortar to online. They don't see immediate results with SEO, yet PPC is immediate and often more attractive to them.
Jason's suggestion for giving #s about research on conversions of organic vs paid listings would be key, and help all of us. $$$ talks. Maybe incorporate an example like this from Jason's site where focus is "results."
An aside, hope you were "calm, relaxed and prepared" and not nervous and that you're enjoying your speaking career!
I've worked with several who've seen some great results. What seems to separate them: Smaller retailers LOVE SEO. Larger ones, either because they're ponderous or because they're older, just don't quite get it.
I agree that a compelling example/case study from a noteworthy (or noteworthy enough) retailer would be a good inclusion- thumbs to undercoverseo and NickB :)
I would also say a quick q&a session to start could break the ice. I am talking about a "no harm, no foul," "do you know what SEO is" type of conversation. They undoubtedly are nervous to admit they have absolutely no idea how it works. Ask them to raise their hands if they know what SEO is, implement SEO strategies on their site, or have them share what search engines they target and why. Use this information to build upon their needs.
This can be risky, I will admit, but I think taking them off of defense and educating them is essential. My husband is an amazing teacher and, through observation, I have learned with the right approach you can sell aggregate supply and demand to 16 year olds and they will actually get it! I say, teach them SEO, make it interactive and fun. If you don't cover your more in-depth advice then supply them with a handout/CD with more info.
Just some thoughts, hope they help!
Hi There Rebecca,
It is interesting that, as we are pursuing ideas for our Marketing Budget that we came across your Blog.
It must have been Undercover SEO’s comment that brought us here.
Nevertheless, a very interesting Post and a very informative Site! As somewhat new to this venue, we will always be looking for tips on marketing and now because of your (And all your commenters) we see the need to see what this ‘SEO†stuff is about. Thanks for the heads up, as we will pursue this further!
We can only relate to our own position, as to comment on your inquiry about participation from your audience.
When we are at a Conference or even at a Webinar the need to participate is directly proportional to our investment to be there. Even now, we are excited to be here even if our investment is intangible time.
Looking at the economy gives evidence that times are changing and that has forced a subtle evolution into how marketing dollars are to be dispersed in the future. SEO now to be an important consideration for us.
NO Marketing Budget made it so hard to get our ‘Brick & Mortar’ Business going! “I MEAN SLOW!†Therefore, Diversifying and endeavoring to generate additional streams of revenue has brought us to the Internet and we appreciate the goodness of people like you, who are here to help. We will make the effort to peruse your Site to glean all the gems!
Not having any budget (When We Started!), we began our search on finding something with, which to build one. Guerrilla Marketing is one venue we are now moving on. One thing that caught our eye was a question we stumbled on searching for marketing budgets,
“What Is Better Than Free?â€
Nevertheless, we found the answer to be in the Jay Conrad Levinson M.O. i.e.,
“Getting Paid For Doing Itâ€
And this was right down our alley!
And now, we will soon be Cautiously GROWING Our Budget!
Thanks again for the GREAT Post, D. P. Gatten. https://tinyurl.com/2d88ck for more.
Thanks for stopping in! I hope you can glean some valuable information from our blog. Thanks also for your insight and perspective on the matter.