In August of 2007, I heard from several sources that Mike Blumenthal of the Understanding Google Maps & Yahoo! Local blog was a rising star in the field of local search. I shot him an email and I've been hoping to get an interview with him ever since. Thankfully, he's finally acquiesced - enjoy!
Can you give readers who may be unfamiliar with your background a brief look at who you are, what you do, and what brought you into the local search space?
In my previous work as a small business owner covering a small fragmented market of 250,000 inhabitants, it took 7 Yellow Page directories to achieve market coverage. Our family business had 8 major product divisions and 40 broad areas that we sold into. Most needed their own marketing and promotion. It was very difficult and expensive to run ads in all of the books, in all of our product areas. It became apparent after we entered the web design business in 1995 that the internet would ultimately play a role in local marketing.
In 2001, we sold off all of our retail businesses and focused solely on web development for regional businesses. We learned some SEM and became fluent in the very long local tail of local search, i.e., Service + Location organic searches. In 2004 I experienced Google Local, threw away my 7 YP directories that I used for sales, installed a computer to analog phone dialer, and have not looked back. It had a very practical and day to day appeal for me. I started exploring the ins and outs of the logic and ranking and taking notes shortly thereafter.
In fall of 2006 when I realized that nobody in the search marketing industry was taking the hands on approach to local search marketing that I was looking for, I started writing about what I thought I knew. The logic, illogic, politics, and social context of local became compelling. With each level of understanding that I achieved there seemed to be another layer beneath that was more complicated and interesting. And it always seemed that I had one more burning question that I just had to answer.
Currently in the local space, I have been consulting and offering market research advice and tools to national & international companies interested in learning more about Maps & Local. I provide guidance as a courtesy to my local web design clients and on occasion have taken on a small business client in another city if they have a particularly vexing problem or unusual situation.
There have been estimates that nearly 40% of all search queries have some sort of local intent - to what degree do you think that's an accurate estimate? And, do you believe that for all of those local intent queries, some geographic elements are being used by the search engines at this time? In the future?
This research is from my local guru, Greg Sterling. I have not looked at the methodology or the numbers and can't speak directly to their accuracy, but the source is impeccable and the logic is valid. It provides a useful lens for understanding local. In the end it doesn't really matter if it is 10%, 40%, 60%, or more. If you are in one of the industries that needs local and can benefit from it, then you need it and you probably need professional help to navigate the maze that is local. If you need it and you don't have a strong presence, it can be a disaster as seen in the case widely reported last December of the florist that was affected by a competitor gaining the Authoritative OneBox.
Local search is an aggregation of a million niches which will come to local as the ROI becomes more obvious to each of them. As the granularity of local data increases and functional mobile technology proliferates, more and more business sectors will be impacted and will benefit from participating in local.
You mentioned in recent blog posts some challenging problems for local search - can you detail what you believe to be the biggest challenges facing the engines when it comes to returning accurate local results?
Hmm...the technical glitches are legion, there being issues with categorization, mapspam, coupons (dang, this is a link fest!), but ultimately the biggest challenge facing the engines is one of integrity, transparency, and trust. The main stake holders, the searchers, and the bricks and mortar businesses deserve a system that is clean of spam, transparent, easy to use, and offers meaningful feedback.
The old system of the Yellow Pages was fast (from the owners views), convenient, and expensive. Replacing that with a system that is seemingly slow, inconvenient, free but requiring a rocket scientist, is not a trade off that most SMB's want. The issues that Google is confronting are technically complicated but are resolvable. If they lose the stake holder's trust, that may be gone forever. I think that Google has the best chance to solve the many issues in local but only if they accept their new responsibilities.
Do you believe that search engines will continue to dominate local search, or will other verticals like Yelp, Citysearch, etc. be able to pull significant share from general web search engines?
From where I stand the battle is taking place on two fronts: The desktop and in the mobile environment.
On the desktop, Google's market share creates a situation where they can control the visibility and success of Maps. They have demonstrated a clear ability to take Maps market share at will. Each tick on the chart below that I have noted was due to some specific Google action.
(used with permission of Hitwise)
While there is always room for creative and well run local niche engines, that space is getting smaller. When you are in the room with an elephant there may only be room in the corners.
In the mobile environment the search engines' dominance is far from clear. They are up against very well capitalized and aggressive competition and the rules are not as easily defined by a single company. There is a saying out west that only fools and easterners predict the weather....the same could probably be said of the future in the local search world. But being from the East never slowed me down. I am also booking a ringside seat (sports metaphors are everywhere, eh?), as it will be an incredible match to watch.
What are some of the most exciting technological leaps you've seen in the local space? Anything that's got you wishing for more?
I follow the space pretty closely and its rate of change has always amazed me. The one area that I think is underreported and maybe underappreciated for its potential impact is the personal mapping space (Google My Maps, CommunityWalk) and the coming boon of user generated map content in the geotagged photo arena. Folks seem to really like projecting themselves into cyberspace and the trend of geotagging photos will feed into that and people's love of the snapshot. Google is moving aggressively in this area and all mapping based search, and it appears to me that this technology will provide a primary interface and data source for the mobile web.
Compare Google Maps & Yahoo! Local Search for us - which do you personally like better, who do you think is doing a better job and what are the big differentiators right now?
I personally find Google more interesting to follow as their technology is more complicated and obtuse, offering a more stimulating intellectual challenge. But in the end, which one I like more or which is doing a better job will not matter too much. Technology comes in second place to market share. The big differentiator is that Google's market share is growing and Yahoo's is declining.
Can you give SEOs your top 5-10 tips on optimizing for Google Maps and Google's local search results?
You mean besides getting an address in the center of town and changing your business name? :) I think the article 10 Likely Ranking Factors of Google's Local Search Algorithm that I wrote last year is still basically a sound view of the issues.
Can you give us those tips for Yahoo! Local Search as well?
You mean besides getting an address in the center of town and changing your business name?
How does advertising for local differ from normal web search advertising? Any specific recommendations for those buying ads in the local space?
I am not a PPC click expert so I will let others who are more qualified answer that question.
Can you share some of your favorite sites/forums/blogs/etc on local search and search in general?
I read Screenwerk, LocalMobileSearch, and the Google Earth Blog every day. I also enjoy Chris Silver Smith & Bill Slawski, as they provide critical technical insights to local. Some of my best information comes from readers and folks who email or call me. I can't thank them enough for working together to explore the many issues involved in local.
Many thanks, Mike - the links that you've shared alone are immensely valuable and we appreciate your effort. As always, if you have specific questions or comments for Mike or on the topic, you can leave them in the post and hopefully, he'll be able to stop by to provide answers.
p.s. For those interested in more, don't miss Mike's blog and another interview with him from just last week (he's a hot commodity lately).
The local market is where the instant gratification consumer spending occur. The cellular operators are looking at targeting cellphones with area specific adverts. The amalgamation of the cellphone and personal computer is advancing rapidly, is already a reality to a large extent and is what the masses are baying for. So looking for a pizza spot on googlemobile one would like to be pointed at the nearest, bestest, or whatever defined parameter.
How this gets defined is going to be intesting too, methinks the impartial social media vote system will be preferable to paid adverts, however one will need something a tad more evolved than current systems, where you could theoretically kill your direct competition with a cyber smear campaign, using (dare I say it?) black hat tactics!
Pardon for digressing, but to me the local queries will become even more prevalent as the internet becomes available on more personal 24/7 social devices, ie cellphone (which are an amazing evolution in their own right, especially regarding battery technology to power all the exotic extra functions)
Look forward to the follow up article!
Hi dojeda
I have written about several similar mapspams to thi. It is problematic over the long haul as I can envision a day when every outlet for Joy dish soap or Addidas shoes gets the same treatment. The local merchant also ends up forgoing their own local branding.
For the sake of your Google post at the Maps group you should document the businesses that are actually at those addresses.
Google's algo appears to not have the type of subtlety that you speak of.
Mike
Thanks for the tip I will get on providing a more in depth post for the Google Maps team.
I don't know if this was on purpose or not, but I really like the interview format that doesn't use italics. It's so much easier to read.
Thanks for the interview - lots of great info there!
I agree wholeheartedly. :)
Local search optimization - indeed the most underreported and underestimated aspect of Internet Marketing. It's the neglected child I would rather say. And it's been abused by black hats upto an extent that there are so many sites ruling the local search merely by flooding their homepage with local adresses for the sake of appearing no.1 in the local search. For example if you Google buffalo flowers, the top spot is occupied by thefloristry - Just see what they have done at the bottom of the page. If you go down the list, you will find more of them who have done the same thing to their website to appear on the google local search while discounting on the user experience they should have focused on instead.
BTW it's a really informative post Mike & Rand. I have discovered some more sensible and Insensible ways of optmizing my website for local search. Cheers !
Dear dojeda
As for reporting to google, there is no mechanism other than the Google Maps for Business Group that seems to work. And there you just need to be persistant in that they seem to be overworked.
That being said when I look at the search san diego dvd duplication
I see a company that dominates the results, 1Stop but that appears, at least to my eyes (and I am sure to Google's) as a legit bricks and mortar operation with lots of locations. They each have a different street address & phone number and it appears that Google just picked them up. Their site shows these as legit addresses. Are there actually 1stop owned stores at these locations?
Mike Blumenthal
Mike,
Thanks for taking the time to reply! Most of the drop off points are not owned by 1 Stop but small camera shops and such. Calling several numbers gets me redirected to there main office not the actually location.
I have already posted on Google Maps group but will keep up the pressure. This is happening in alot of cities with them. I thought Google Maps had some balancing to allow an even mix of businesses listed on the first page, even if they were all true B&M sites.
Cheers!
HI Dave
Thanks for the plug...2 things...
1)You are absolutely right in that even when you immerse yourself in Local you can't forget the organic side of your marketing
2)One of the reasons that my blog has so much nitty gritty detail is that folks take the time to experiment themselves and share the results. The process of deconstructing local is by necessity collaborative.
Mike
Great interview, looking forward to reading the blog. We have found listing on local community websites and local chamber of commerce websites helps big time with local search. Also, in England they have been indexing directly from the phone book for over a year now and that is something that may be adopted in the US in the future.
Good way to start the week, thanks for the interview. I find that local search can be very important depending on your niche. I am currently dealing with automotive dealers and our primary focus is the local search. Both from the organic and the paid realms. I have had degrees of success with the targeting within Adwords. It allows me to focus my ads on the regions close to my clients.
Also from an organic vantage point Google maps is where a lot of the focus is. With the way that Google is including Maps with in searches it’s import to understand how they rank with in maps. I am curious to see if Yahoo with start doing the same thing.
Google Maps and Yahoo Local Search are dominant tools that often go unobserved ahead of their capability to give directions. Even if you own a florist shop, restaurant, or any other business, you could want to list them in a local search engine. Relax; you don’t even need to have a website for many of them, which include Google Maps and Yahoo Local. However, other than these local searches, for the small local business there is a remarkable amount of promotion needed to put under.
Thank you. I am going to check out the latest on the local search blogs mentioned. I am sure there are a 'few' updates there. :)
Rand -- Great post! Thanks. This gives some great insight. -LR
I think Mike's blog carries the best in depth coverage of the actualities of local search and his in depth coverage of activities at Google maps and Yahoo Local are terrific.
As referenced above if you want to catch some of the crazy stuff that is happening in Local read through the commentary at google groups for business owners.
If you want to see one example of some of the types of things that need corrections do an organic search for the following phrases:
Advertising agency (any city USA)
then do one for
Advertising agencies (any city USA)
(I hope they focus on fixing stuff like that)--they can...it just takes some effort.)
One last thing, there is enormous utility to what has been described as keyword expansion in organic search in which there one utilizes the long tail for both secondary terms for a business, its products and services and the long tail for all the potential applications of the local/regional geography.
I've been doing it for years. More relevantly JakedBake, who used to run a mini local search engine for several years described this process at Pubcon about 2 years ago. At the time Jake probably saw and concentrated on local search terms more than anyone else in the world excepting some unkown specialists at Google, Yahoo, and MSN.
Even with the enormous visibility of Maps within Organic searches for the last 15 months or so, keyword expansion for organic search is quite effective.
Nice interview, Mike.
Dave
Two other things:
1. BHawk: keyword expansion works great for authomotive dealers/because there are so many relevant 2ndary phrases.
2. Craigslist works great for almost everything.
Dave
Mike, great post!! I have learned alot about why I need to know more about local search!! Did that make sense?!?:-)
Given we are talking about Google Maps does anyone know how to report directly to them? I have tried the general spam report for google and even posted on their group but no luck.
The reason is if you look at:
san diego dvd duplication
One company almost dominates the top ten list on maps. It is the same for several other cities. I thought the whole reason to have 10 in the listing is to present a wider variety??
Any thought are appreciated on this!
Thanks to everyone for your supportive comments and thanks to Rand for the opportunity. I am at the ready to explore local and its many vagaries...
Mike B
Thanks Mike! I did a bit of local when I used to work with some Inns -- searches like `location + lodging` etc. Also in the real estate space local is everything. I only represent one site now and they are national but I found the links you dropped very interesting and I look forward to reading more from you.
Mike ROCKS. If you are a small business owner with time to read only one blog per day (other than SEOmoz, of course), it should be Mike's. He is a goldmine of actionable information on a regular basis.
Kudos, Rand, for a new (and highly-deserving) face in the SEOmoz interview pool.
Good post - more interviews, please!
Michael is definitely one of my favorite thinkers in the local search world. The amount of detail he puts into his posts is always impressive and helpful.
hey Rand, thanks for introducing me to this blog.
I enjoy doing local search projects. For me, the most satisfying experience with SEO is helping a small local business connect with customers around them. Maybe I'm just sappy, but it makes my day.
Thanks go our to Michael for the in depth interview.
My panel presentation for SMXWest covering Local Search & Blended Results just became a lot more comprehensive. Thanks to you both for offering such great information both here as well as on the linked posts.