I’m on holiday at the moment (although my wife might argue with that, considering that I have written this blog post), and so I’ve had a lot of time to consider the conversation going on at, and about, Sphinn right now, and especially Rand’s opinion on it. In a post entitled “Sphinn.com is basically just a popularity contest,” TannerC argues that the stories which are dominating the homepage of the site, due to the number of votes (or Sphinns) which they have received, are predominantly from the big names in the search sector; people such as Rand, Lisa, Vanessa, & Todd. He also suggests that this is a de facto status quo that makes it hard for newbies to break into. Rand’s response was a very forthright one, arguing instead that readers were voting for stories they found useful or valuable, rather than simply for stories by people whose names they recognised. Well, in this instance I have to agree with TannerC. Sort of.
Let me explain. Rand’s post on why people should use Sphinn is currently the most popular on the site. Whilst this isn’t solely because Rand wrote it, I think it does play a large part. Not simply because people recognise Rand’s name, but because his position as chief blogger on SEOmoz puts everything that he writes in front of a much larger audience than anything I or other lesser known bloggers would get on our own sites (which is, of course, part of the reason that I am writing this here, rather than on my own blog). I would also suggest that another reason that Rand’s post did so well is that he explicitly suggested that people Sphinn the story and included a large button at the bottom of the post. As far as I can tell, this is the only story on SEOmoz to have had this treatment, and correspondingly, is the story that has done best on the site.
Compare it with Rand’s (in my opinion) more valuable post on viral marketing. It didn’t have the eye-catching Sphinn button here on SEOmoz, and when it was Sphunn, it was by someone without Rand’s reputation, meaning readers on Sphinn might not at first glance realise who the story is by. The result? No Sphinns at present. So, what does this tell us? That people do seem to Sphinn stories where they recognise the author, and also that having a large audience on your own site & encouraging Sphinning is likely to see a surge in votes.
What would be interesting, I think, would be to find out what percentage of the Sphinns on homepage stories came on Sphinn itself, and how many from people clicking buttons on the sites where the stories are originally published. My guess is that the biggest stories picked up a lot of their Sphinns outside of Sphinn itself. It also suggests that Sphinn is a popularity contest in that everyone likes to feel popular; hence, stories about Sphinn, which make the readers feel that they are part of something cool/new/cutting edge/delete as applicable, are likely to do well.
You only have to look at Digg to see this in action. Digg also highlights the point about having a captured audience – Techcrunch, Boing Boing, & the like do well on Digg, not just because they have great stories, but also because the sort of people likely to Digg stuff are also likely to hang out on those sites. They can therefore pick up a lot of votes on their own sites, giving them a better chance of making the homepage, and picking up even more.
At the end of the day, none of this should be surprising, and it’s not necessarily a terrible thing. Essentially, people like Rand are (to use the jargon from The Tipping Point, which I have just finished reading) Mavens, Connectors, & Sales People all wrapped in one. They can find great information, put it in front of a large audience, and convince that audience to buy into it. When others point this out, Rand shouldn’t take offence (which he seemed to slightly); instead, he should take it as the subtle compliment it is. And whilst this might make many of us envious, it is part of life and all we can really do is work to build our own audiences & profiles. (That, or beg Danny to make the New Stories the default homepage, rather than the Hot Now!)
I'm the SEO Director of London based full service digital agency, Altogether Digital. Our site isn't live right now, but why not check us out at our old blog; heck, you might even want to give us a Sphinn. We even updated a Wordpress plugin to make doing so easier.
Why Rand Is Wrong, And Sphinn Is A Popularity Contest
Public Relations
This post was promoted from YouMoz. The author’s views are entirely his or her own (excluding an unlikely case of hypnosis) and may not reflect the views of Moz.
Shit. Even I can't argue with that - brilliantly argued, Ciaran.
My only defense would be to say that if you put up something of great value and leverage the community of "influencers" you'll almost certainly end up with lots of coverage. I get a lot of email and link to a lot of material because of it and Sphinn, IMO, is another portal that will let you get in front of many search marketers.
Rand - if I have done nothing else, I have made you swear; and with that I can die happy.
Seriously though, all I was suggesting is that certain people have more leverage to start with. It's not something to complain about; it just is.
Although I wouldn't cry if you bumped me up to the main blog & gave me a Spinn button!
PS - I'm vaguely thinking of writing a book, and the linkerati play a big part in my thoughts: would you be up for some interviews?
BTW - Just checked my Sphinns: Oatmeal has done me proud, but so far no other Mozzers: wasn't beating me at bowling enough?
Make that two. Excellent post. :)
Aw, I gave you a sphinn! That sounds kind of naughty, by the way...
Slightly OT: I found Sphinn to be very slow - is the site always like that?
Ciaran - I tried to Sphinn you, didn't even read the article, I just saw it was your article and you're well known on the SEOmoz forum.
JK - you make a strong case and nice posting.
FYI: I think Danny still has some buggs to work out as Lorisa mentions above. I have found that to be the case also, and sometimes I am not able to Sphinn anyone!
My Spinn handle is "TheSearchBuz" :)
Rand said "shit"
One thing everyone is forgetting to take into account is that the "high profile" submitters also tend to be active marketers. i.e. When Lisa Sphinn's a post, it's possible she then sends the url around to some friends, utilizes social networking and actually "pushes" the piece. You have no idea what is going on in the background, so to simply say "Lisa submitted it, so everyone sphinns it" may be a fair statement, but there is also a big chance that it is not. So, Rand may "push" his piece that he submitted (either via word of mouth, etc) but the other guy who submits Rand's piece may simply hit submit and wait for the glory to occur on it's own. Something to think about.
Yeah, I know Barry sometimes asks for diggs in chat rooms.
Wow, thanks to Rae for insinuating that I'm some sort of Sphinn spammer. ;)
Just for the record, when I submit something to Sphinn it's because I found it legimately interesting and felt like sharing. I do not submit a URL and then ask others to vote for it. You can ask around to verify that if you'd like. Heck, most times I submit something it's not even Bruce Clay-related. What do I care if Rae gets more traffic? ;)
I was using you as an example DD :) - the fact is that lots of people DO promote their items on Sphinn, Digg and every other social site deliberately - not saying they spam it, just that they do their best to actively promote it. Insert your name with anyone else's. Yours was simply the first that came to mind (BMB).
And I'm actually laughing hysterically at the fact that my comment got two thumbs down for presenting an alternative viewpoint and asking people to think about possibile alternatives LMAO.
Of all the shit I've ever said on this site - the one thing I post without being snarky or telling someone to bite me and just gently expresses an possible alternative thought process gets me my first two thumbs down.
Good thing I'm not freaking sensitive ;-)
Let this be a lesson for you, Rae; mess with The Lisa and people are going to thumb you down. And you did tell someone to bite you in your comment, you just used an acronym to do it. :P
BMB! LMAO!
Don't think I won't hit the thumbs down button...
ROFLMAO... and don't think I'll care - it's like ebay baby, once you're perfect feedback is ruined, you just stop giving a shit ;-) hahahahahahaha :P
Oh, yeah, and for the record... the note to the women of SEO thing that was mine that you Sphunn... I never asked you to submit it, but once I saw it there and saw people discussing it, I did take the liberty of passing the link along to the SEO women I knew to check out - so one of Lisa's two posts to make the top of the heap did INDEED have promotion behind it. Thus why I say look at other possibilities... sometimes the answer isn't always obvious and assuming can be the wrong thing to do. ;-)
Well said rae... it is a community tool and the social nature of that community gets people behind those they know... it is a popular game right now that will level out eventually
Fair point, and one that gets a thumb from me (if only to redress the two negative votes).
I actually set up a Facebook group to allow people to promote stories more easily, by linking to their profiles & recent submissions. Feel free to join guys...
Already did mate....
I saw you there - thanks for joining.
Anyone else?
;)
Sphunn and thumbed up!
Congrats on making the home page of Sphinn. I guess that proves you're are not 100% right. Doesn't it?
I followed Rand's advice and made the home page too.
I can say with confidence that I am very well unknown, I have a very small site/audience and I am not asking for sphinns on my site.
Now let's all vote for Rand to move this post up to the main blog.
This is my vote.
Hi Hamlet,
Yes - I was sort of hoping to be proved wrong, although to be fair, I never said that you had to be a name to make it on Sphinn, just that it makes it a lot easier. But it does make my case somewhat in that had I posted this article on my own blog, I believe that it would have been much harder to get the top Sphinns.
Rand - listen to Hamlet about moving this to the main blog - he obviously knows what he's talking about!
;)
Excellent post Ciaran! But could it be possible that you are more well known than you think? After all Adam Lasnik recognised you at SMX...although it was for "being the guy that is not gay but likes to shop" lol...
No seriously, I do totally agree with you.
Ciaran you are never go to live that one down... nice piece of info Lisa!!!
Yeah - thanks Lisa!
I submitted a news story over at Sphinn that links directly to a new article by Rand. https://sphinn.com/story/1838 . So far its gotten no action. I bet if Rand submitted the same story himself, it would have gotten sphinns and comments
I can't use Sphinn until Danny stops calling it a forum! :o)
lol.... now that is funny
I presume that's stopped now?!
;)
What "matts" said. I was thinking the same thing last night and was going to suggest it as well. Have a well-known person post something and see if it gets the attention. You could probably go so far as to post 2 articles that are roughly the same. One using the well-known person's profile and one using the no-name profile.
Cheers for the post Ciaran; really enjoyed the read.
In terms of the below point:
What would be interesting, I think, would be to find out what percentage of the Sphinns on homepage stories came on Sphinn itself, and how many from people clicking buttons on the sites where the stories are originally published.
I really think it depends on the content. I've got just the one post on there (basically to do with the first baby steps into SEO) and it's done fairly well - https://sphinn.com/story/1142. Being as it's my first comment anywhere, I'm obviously not an authority figure, yet it's so far still picked up 28 sphinns.
However, I've got a feeling that it would have been very different had I been linking to an external blog. People see Rand's name and are willing to take the time to go beyond the initial one click - in addition to any sphinns on seomoz. One more click (although little actual physical effort), is a whole lot more effort when it comes to the internet.
Hi Chris,
I think you probably have a point there - maybe starting discussions (i.e. posting direct on Sphinn) rather than submitting external stories, is the way to go.
What I was actually trying to say though, is that I would imagine that the story in question on SEOmoz was Sphunn quite a few times on SEOmoz, and then Sphunn even more when it started doing well on Sphinn.
So of those stories submitted to Sphinn, rather than written on Sphin itself, what percentage of Sphinns received were from Sphinn buttons on the original post, and what came from people Sphinning them on Sphinn.
Clear as mud right?!
;)
You lost me at 'Hi' ;o)
No, I think you're right, there's a very clear distinction, or at least there seems to be, between discussions and external links and it's in the latter where it would be most interesting to investigate.
I certainly get the impression that a post needs an initial amount of sphinns to ensure it doesn't get lost on the 'Whats New' page.
Exactly - that or make What's New the home page (although I think the chances of that are pretty low!)
Compelling and diplomatically stated. Good job.
I agree entirely.
Great stuff ciaran.
Sorry guys I have to disagree with all of you!
I believe Rand is right, and I am not kissing his Ass!
You want someone to listen to you, you have to be authoritative on the subject. I am learning a lot form Rand, but I also have something to work with.
So before you go sphinning prepare yourself and do it the right way.
Hey, maybe try being a Troll like me. :)
Igor The Troll
You did of course get a sphinn from me.
I agree that it will be a mixture of other factors also. However to only get sphunn by a name would be a good example of the 'popularity contest factor' without others being able to say that 'there were other factors involved'.
Rand's other submit suggests that it really is a mix of all 3!
;)
yeah, it would appear so.
Had he put the sphinn button on that article it would have went front page though I bet
I couldn't agree more.
I completely agree.
I was hoping to demonstrate this by getting a high profile blogger to sphinn one of my posts.
I am not the most prolific writer or bloggers in the world, I am unknown in the SEO field and my blog gets little or no traffic. I have posted a couple of my own articles to sphinn and of course they didnt go anywhere. as expected.
However, I believe that if Rand or someone else known in the search world was to sphinn one of my 'usually going no where posts' then it would hit the heights quite easily because of the obvious patterns within the site.
Thanks for putting it so plainly for us
Glad that you liked it. I have to say though that I don't think it's enough to just have your story Sphunn by a 'name'; I do think that it is a mixture of all the elements I mention.
For example, this story was published on a big site, but hasn't had many Sphinns yet.
Fancy changing that? Sphinn here!
All of those things are factors in visibility -- which is an important factor in such a small niche. But you have to consider that many of the "big names" are also early adopters, and prolific.
I suspect that yes someone like Rand or Vanessa will always get more attention right from the start but that doesn't mean their contributions are more important. I trust that the community will workout turning Spinn into a valuable resource.
I wasn't even touching on the relative mportance of posts, just the fact that Rand et al have a certain captive audience which gives them a head start.
Personally, I think that anyone who touches on Calvein & Hobbes should get extra votes....
I just wanted to say that the "Tipping Point Mania" is growing so fast, that is unbelievable. I have my conspiration theories about it. I always forget some stuff from the book and read it again. :D
Oh please do tell... I want to hear about these "Conspiration Theories"
BTW did that haircut come with bandaids? because it is looking sharp my man.
I actually came across this post on Sphinn before I saw it at SEOmoz...I'd say that's good leverage of the YOUmoz reach!
How about a little experiment? Rand, create some faux-username at Sphinn and let your fingers create more blog-gold....just under a different name. See what the reaction is like...
I just submitted my first article to Sphinn (being relatively new to internet marketing). I've got to say I can see how the commuity factor will play a large role in my posts popularity.
If people read it, and like it, they will Sphinn it. However, if it disappears from the 'What's New' without being read, then it will die a lonely death.
If I was popular on Sphinn thenmy posts would more easily receive the initial recognition they need to get a look in.
I fully agree with everything said and have backed it up with a thumbs-up and a sphinn... it's the least I could do :)
Very well written. I agree whole-heartedly.
Wow, front page stuff Ciaran! nice work
believeing that's it's one thing like popularity, or "push", or celeb status, or grat content is really niave. It's like KFC with only one herb or spice. It't the combination in just the right quantities and proportions that make things work.
Russ/Michael - thanks for the comments, but with all due respect - read the post.
I don't say that it is all about being a name, or popularity - I suggest that these are factors; you are obviously right that Rand has built well-earned respect due to his contributions to the community & his business success.
What I do argue though is that this works better when he writes about a subject which is 'popular' to the community (i.e., itself), as evidenced by the fact that an article I would consider more valuable does less well than one that appeals to the readers sense of being part of something special.
Also that one of Rand's articles Sphunn by someone other than the man himself does not do as well as one he pushes himself.
I may well be naive in many ways, but not, I don't think, in my thinking on this particular topic (but of course not being naive doesn't mean that I am necessarily right!)
Ultimately it depends on how pligg (the software the site runs on) works or is setup.
Also each user has no rss feeds like digg has.
It would make watching what others are reading easier.
// start rant //
It is not about popularity, it is about authority. People trust the voices of folks like Rand Fishkin because, for years, they have been putting out accurate, valuable content.
Your great article on sphinn has one problem - you. No one knows you (yet). Keep writing and, eventually, people will take notice and have a reason to trust the tips that you threw together on your blog.
// end rant //
I agree with you for the most part.
Please tell us which bits you don't agree with - this works much better as a conversation. I'm sure a lot of people will agree with you disagreeing!
:)