This week, Rand discusses a topic inspired by a reader's email: how to get a job in SEO. He discusses many of the prime things one needs to consider and be familiar with before going in to interview with an SEO company. If you've been considering getting into the industry, or you've got an interview coming up, this is definitely worth a watch.
SEOmoz Whiteboard Friday-How to Get an SEO Job from Scott Willoughby on Vimeo.
Credit to Rajab Bader from SEOGladiator for the question.
I hope this post ends up ranking for its title...
/checks Google/
So it's good that this post is ranking for its title because both the advice in the video and (I'm sure) the additional comments should offer a good overview of getting employed in this industry.
One thing I think is important (and this could apply to any industry, I guess) is not to fake it when you really don't know the answer to an interview question. There's nothing wrong with bluffing if you can do it well, but if someone asks you something and you have no clue as to the correct answer, just say so. Unless you've been asked to define SEO and can't, the answer probably doesn't matter as much as the honesty you'll show by admitting you don't know it.
During my interview here, Rand had a list of things I had to define. There were a few I didn't know. I wish I could remember what they were now! Trying to fudge my way around them wouldn't have done me many favours.
I couldn't agree more about the honesty aspect. Having lots of knowledge now is way less important than being able to recognize your own limitations so as to improve on them. At least, I think that that's how I got this job, and it's certainly a huge part of what's made me successful so far.
Of course, it may not bode too hugely well that I'm sitting at work watching a video to improve my interviewing skills. It's not that I'm willing to look for another job, it's that I have a voracious appetite for learning, right?
How very true!
I find that it is infinitely better to be able to demonstrate an interest in finding something out than to be proven wrong when bluffing, generally it will gain you much more respect.
I love that you brought up the point of not faking it in an interview. So many people feel that if you don't know an answer you blow the interview, but in reality you blow the interview when you throw out a completely insane and utterly ridiculous answer.
Being able to admit you may not have all the answers brings the human element back into the interview. Taking it a step further and extending an interest in finding out the answer shows ambition. This will give you an edge over someone who just BS'd their way through answers they didn't have.
I agree, except in that "completely insane and utterly ridiculous" is kind of my bread and butter.
Oh dear! I'm A and B (but male and married for certain) I just turned down a big job because I was worried about the A side of me - is there such a word as bi-SEOual ? David
Totally awesome, as usual, Rand, and hot on topic. These tips are not only good to folks looking for employment, but also extremely valuable to the people who are looking for SEO professionals, too
I'm right at the middle of a professional transition. Next week I'll be leaving the lead position of the SEO area of a *huge* brazilian portal and ISP -- can't tell more about it at this moment, lol.
I've been interviewing lots of candidates during the past weeks, not just to fill my current position, but for other jobs on the SEO team, and lots of good folks miss these points, specially when it comes to showing their knowledge in simpler points of view.
The one and only thing I would add to this list is: know how the internet works. Show some passion (and knowledge) about web standards, accessibility, about the strength of search and how it's important to any kind of business which publish anything on the web, and how SEO can affect the way you build things since from project conception to sites maintenance.
I'm seeing lots of candidates showing true love about the topics, but not as much about doing web the right way, which is the core of SEO. And by doing this, they seem to miss that SEO is not just made of technical stuff, like doing structures, managing meta data, submitting sitemaps, but also on researching general and particular audiences, creating content drivers and evangelizing people.
Hope more and more people understand that SEO is all about making people knowing that it should be all about writing great content on a well made website, and not writing meta tags.
How the internet works?
Surely it's all a bunch of tubes... maybe it's all run by FedEx and UPs with all that talk of packets being moved around.
*giggles*
I can understand you're point of view though - hard to find good people sometimes!
I think that the "bunch of tubes" thing is pretty much dead-on, actually. I think that being passionate about the internet as a whole is one of the most important things about success in this field, and that sort of passion leads almost inevitably to occasionally spouting meme-responses without meaning to. Or maybe that's just in this office. . . .
*laughs* It is possible that we date ourselves by the stuff we spout.
Like advertising slogans and obscure DNS references and the like *laughs*
I remember mosaic fondly... :-P
We do. I realized just how old I must be yesterday when a coworker walked in with a Big Mac and I automatically spouted "Two all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, on a sesame seed bun," and everyone looked at me like I'd lost my mind. Kids these days.
Hi dudup,
Couldn't agree with you more...
Ignorance is rampant! People who don't even know their html from their javascript are offering premium SEO consultancy... Web standards? Web accessibility? What's that? Usability does seem to ring a bell...vaguely.
I hope we get a good follow-up on this one for all the Search Marketing Pro's out there who are still looking for their dream job: "How to stay well clear of BS artist SEO/SEM employers."
Good luck on your next adventure ;-)
Radzster
Congrats on another excellent whiteboard friday.
I think 'being able to explain complex ideas simply' sums up the SEOmoz way and why this site has been the #1 teacher for my SEO-ducation (too geeky...? ok sorry).
I think similar principles apply to "how to win an SEO contract" - the majority of clients / brand managers will have some idea of what SEO is but unless you can really take them through what's possible and what it can achieve (screenshots, diagrams and live google searches all the way!) it ain't going to seal the deal.
I'm off to enjoy my newly purchased Pro membership! yay! :D
Good stuff Rand! When Slingshot SEO, Inc. is hiring we typically look for individuals with pure passion for the industry/topic. I speaking specifically for a position that would be, "Junior SEO Consultant". Personality is important. We see passion work great with some clients and pure, no-frills logic work with others.
Different individuals work for different positions. One question we love to ask when hiring link builders / link baiters / social media extraordinaries is... What are your hobbies? Our top link builder loves to fish. Typically a fisherman needs to be patient and persistent. Certain personalities seem to work well in certain positions.
We find that musicians that are into web development or programming tend to work well in the long run. This personality seems to fit the bill in this area.
If I was interviewing for a lead SEO/M position, I might ask a candidate for a 15 minute summary of a game plan to rank for 'cell phones'. One candidate may say "That's impossible". I really want to hear how the logic starts. Do they have some creative ideas for achieving such a lofty goal? I'm not really looking for the correct answer necessarily, but more so how the candidate might start to form a plan of attack.
This topic could use far more discussion, but my mind is shutting down as it is now 3:19 AM.
I feel you. It's 04:46 AM here in São Paulo... :P
Slingshotseo,
Thanks for the examples of what you typically ask in an interview... that was really helpful. Odd, I'm programmer by day, musician, internet marketer by night! I love testing different techniques and testing the art and science together.
As for the 'cell phones' strategy... hmmm, I'd probably start with all sorts of long-tail content, watch for what starts to stick and build authority from the bottom up. I'm testing that strategy on several personal sites.We'll see how it works...
Another great presentation Rand.
I would only add - "don't underestimate the power of strong testimonials with specific success stories & experiences. I have personally found Linked-In to be the best way to accomplish this."
I have used the site both to gain new business/clients and help other colleagues to obtain new positions. It's much more powerful than simply providing three or four references.
I think the biggest take aways from this are that communication and personality are extremely important! I have noticed all to often the people that are able to communicate and adapt to all different environments are the most successful, whether its for a corporate role or consulting.
It's difficult to teach that adaptation though. It needs to be there from the start.
I've moved from high tech to e-commerce now to publishing and I can't imagine that would be easy for everyone but that doesn't make them a bad SEO/SEM - just different.
I might want one person for my link building team and a different personality for my SEO team.
I'm really glad you mentioned that. It seems that with many SEO/SEM agency jobs, you're asked to be a salesperson. Or as one job posting put it, "client-facing skills." But there's something to be said for socially awkward people who are crazy talented with detail-oriented work.
Great topic and outside the usual realm of discussion... these are all great points that I hope many take heed to.Positions and requirements vary greatly from company to company... for instance, not to put words in Rand's mouth, but in the past at least, I believe SEOmoz has focused on less SEO specific skills, and more on writing and communication skills with a strong aptitude for picking up and learning SEO -- the idea being that it is easier to train that than other skills, sometimes much easier in fact if you don't have to "un-train" SEO at the same time.Being involved with the process here at Netconcepts lately for a number of SEO positions, I'd say we are probably much more on the other end, at least for the NSO team... looking for a much stronger knowledgebase and skillset initially, and a skillset that includes the writing and SEO, but also client and project management and a number of other things. This can prove challenging of course.Here are a number of key things that I believe come into play, entirely or at least in part, when looking for jobs in this industry:at least a basic understanding of the design/code side... X/HTML, CSS, and at least some high-level understanding of things like JavaScript and AJAX.some techinical understanding, at least high-level... Apache/IIS, 301 redirects vs. 302s, the challenges of doing redirects on the different platforms.a base of SEO knowledge.to have your knowledge questioned or even disproven, but also the courage to prove your points.to talk and write to people in various levels of the organization, as well as varying areas of expertise.to manage many moving parts at once.to work within a team while also being able to work on your own.to diffuse volatile situations.to think creatively while also thinking analytically...simultaneously.to be a detective...seeing what isn't readily visible, digging to uncover things, and to connect the dots.to read and take in volumnious amounts of material...constantly.to weigh varying and differing thoughts and ideas...often with the realization that it is less about what's correct, right or wrong, but what is applicable to specific circumstances.to accept and handle the challenge that things you learned yesterday may no longer be relevant or correct today.perhaps most important, an unquenchable thirst to continue learning, as well as an aptitude for learning.This can be an incredibly exciting and rewarding industry, but it is by far one of the most challenging ones I've ever been involved with. To work in SEO/M, one must often have strengths in different areas, some often juxtaposed and even conflicting. You have to be a writer, a techie, an organizer, a teacher, a student, a detective, a business person, and usually a little bit of a sales person, if only to help sell in your ideas.
Demanding to say the least, but for those who live and breath search, just part of the attraction.
Start your own blog, duh. Preach and prove what you know.
I agree with Rand that you should have a set select group of examples of success. We did this and then this happened.
Funnily enough I did a look at SEO jobs and someone twittered me I was unkind. I thought I was me
*laughs*
But I'm also looking for a senior role to move away from where I am now so I'm hoping the next video will be on "how to score a job at a top agency who will fly you around the world to win clients hearts and minds and speak at conferences and devise wonderous integrated strategies and make sure you're never bored"
That title might be a bit long for YouTube tho...
I think it's important to find an employer that matches your personality and skill set.
I recently left a job doing SEO/PPC/Marketing because it felt like every change I wanted to do was pushing against the status quo. In finding a new job I was offered an opportunity with an up and coming startup but I didn't feel a connection with the people running the company so I elected to take a lesser-paying position and haven't looked back since.
Good tips. I think that personality has to be key. Not only does the company want someone that meshes well with their people and clients, but I want to fit in with that company.
Certain times I think you need to understand as the interviewie that as much as you want to impress them they should be impressing you. I would only classify a job as "great" if the work enviorment and the team were a fit as well as the job responsibilities.
Yeah Rand, definitely some good tips there.
Bhawk988, totally agree... Personality is important and they should impress you... and not just be impressed with themselves. Following your gut feeling as interviewie should never be ignored. I failed to do so before, and it always turns out to be a costly mistake.
Make sure you thoroughly research the company: what is the "organisation" like, who are the key stakeholders, who is/are the person(s) interviewing you. Be wary of the possible existance of backstabbing company politics and legacy relationships that might already be out to "get ya" before you even get started.
Do they share your sense of ethics? Are they asking you innapropriate personal questions or sneakingly trying to get your opinion on other people... or perhaps details about previous employer IP? Beware! Unless you're a snake yourself that it is, then you'll fit right in ;-) (Needless to say, not my kind of place.)
And last, but by no means least, make sure they have a very clear, detailed explanation of the role you will need to fill. What exactly will you be responsable for? What do they expect from you? By what/who's standards, if any, will your performance be judged?
I've interviewed quite a few people for SEO positions. I get some pretty lame ass people thinking they know everything.
My favorite recently was this guy telling me that indented sublinks in Google SERPs were "supplemental" results therefore supplemental is a good thing. lol.
Thank, Rand.
I would just add that the A/B personality example works both ways. That is, if the person interviewing you seems like a creepster, it's okay to RUN!
I know that's not always possible. I job-searched for a LONG time after college, and sometimes you get to the point where you simply need someone to hire you. But in the long-run, it's best to make sure you fit in the organization, and the organization fits with you.
In my experience, the best attitude to take into an interview is to be excited, engaged, and stand up for yourself knowing that whoever hires you will be glad they did!
I think you hit the nail on the head Rand. I just started a new position as the head of my company's SEM, and personality was just about everything. If you are kind, considerate and helpful, it shows that you will be that during any crisis.
I'll add one comment to the knowing Industry people. Know the big names (you learn so much more that way) but also know the people that head up SEM agencies in your city. If you are looking to do client side, having the big names in your city SEM talk about you and be able to back up your skills is priceless.
I think these tips are great for any job interview. I always tell friends if you get the interview, you are qualified for the job ... they just want to see if your personality matches their office environment. Always be yourself in an interview and tell the truth. Lies to catch up to you.
I am surprised Revecca's writeup on Jane's Interview is not linked from the Post. I think it was very well written and gives more insight into how should the approach be from a any SEO Firm to recruit new members.
Personally I will still keep my option open for finding someone from the circle or can add value to the team with his existance knowledge
Being current is definitely a huge factor in this industry.
Hmm. Personality is huge, great key factor to ANY industry.
I think it is pretty safe to say that these points are going to be key in selling your service to prospective clients as well.
You may not NEED to know all the industry players, but as we move forward, you will run across people in a meeting that will bring someone up that they have read about online.
You can't know everybody but not knowing the "Biggies" isn't going to play well.
Aww, I think the video is not working anymore (or it was just on my end?).
These are really great guidelines for job seekers in virtually any SEO company...but these tips won't really help, if you're dreaming to work for SEO moz :) Simply because secret message was hidden in this post, - first and the most important thing - you got to be a girl :) and if you're not a girl - learn and try to become one! Tough times to be a bloke in this industry nowadays.
No, seriously, don't get my joke wrong,- it's a great post, main points outlined in a very simple and understanding manner. Thank you!
I can't count the number of times that my personality has landed me a job when my qualifications weren't quite up to snuff.
Oh, okay. I can, 5. Not bad eh?
Now that I'm a small business owner/operator, the story is no different when I'm sitting down with a potential client. It's all about selling yourself, and being the right person for the job.
I think the recommendations in the video are great. My case is quite unique, I have been working on SEM for 3 years and now I would like to find a job in SEO. The funny thing is that I ‘m already working in an agency that does SEM and SEO, however when I told to my company that I wanted to learn SEO, I have been answered that I needed to learn it by myself. I learn things pretty quickly and I put a lot of effort in what I do. I have been doing a lot of reading, learning web development and getting into seo on my own but I found quite difficult without having guidelines on where to start, even if I have a good knowledge of search. I would like to know if the company has been too hard on me or if this is the only way to learn SEO. Any advice is really appreciated.
You have come to the right place.
Search throught the archives here for some of the guides and they will rienforce what you already know or show you what you need to get better at.
Read every post including the comments. A lot of times there is more informatin given in the comments then in the actual post. Plus you will get a feel for the people you think have more insight in to what you are searching for and you can key in on what they have to say not only here but elsewhere.
I also think you should be plugged in to Search Engine Land, Search Engine Watch, SEO Book and SEO Chat.
Good Luck.
Thanks for your advise.
Cheers,
RB
Very good information. Don't be affraid to use a little psychological reciprocity - yes, point out some things their site could be doing better but also have some points ready to explain what they are doing right and why.
Great post! Thanks much! I am new to this site, but I think I will come visit often :) Looking forward to learning more from the pros ;)
Cheers
Great post. I agree with some of our SEO friends here. Passion it's one of the most important characteristics. Passion will lead you to research, study, experiment, participate, challenge yourself, develop a critical mind, etc.
I entered the SEO industry recently from web design and development and am pretty sure that I got my current job exactly when I was sincere and said I did not know a certain answer (very specific cloaking/punishment issue) but would find out.
I went home, did my research and sent the answer back to the future boss together with suggestions on implementation.
I wouldn't focus so much on knowledge but more on potential to learn. I think a good SEO/SEM employee is someone who has 2 things:
When you are interviewing it is important for you be honest with yourself about your work style. In house and agency are very different work environments and how you interact is one of the biggest issues.
By the end of your interview I wuld suggest that you find out who your direct manager will likely be, how many people are in the department, and how the department has grown over the past year. This way you have a sense of where and how you will become part of the team.
Reference my earlier post about my being between A and B and the word I made up => bi-SEOual
Google it ;)
Guess who's top and there are some "other results too"
David
I, too, agree that people skills are very important for the SEO position. It's almost certain that there will be many debates and cooperative works between departments and work groups in the SEO role.
Since there isn't really a right and wrong strategy to any SEO implementation, people skills in a person really adds the extra bonus to the role.
A timely post as I'm actually looking at this transition and trying to develop the "sales pitch" to the local firms. I think the tough part is even getting to the point where you can show your knowledge, soft skills and personality (or lack thereof).