As I type this post, I'm sitting on a flight from Chicago to Seattle, wedged conveniently between two of Google's Kirkland employees. At conferences around the world, SEOs and frequent attendees like me have the opportunity to spend a lot of time (social and professional) with the folks from Google, MSN, Yahoo! and Ask.com. Before I started attending events like SES & Pubcon, I always felt that those personal relationships gave an unfair advantage to certain people in the industry - to me, people like Greg Boser, Dave Naylor or even Danny Sullivan had a "leg up" on regular folks in the webmaster world. Matt Cutts, Tim Mayer & Rahul Lahiri would answer their emails, send them text messages and get drunk with them at far-flung pubs. In my head, these fantasies always involved important questions getting answered and friendly boosts to the rankings of these sites. Of course, in reality, the search engine folks do a damn good job of keeping their noses clean and separating business and friendship.
When I entered the world of search engine parties, pub crawls and meals with folks on both sides of the search world (engines & SEOs), I found myself in the awkward position of managing these relationships personally. I can honestly say that it's a challenge - when I first sat down with Matt Cutts in San Jose, I felt young, immature, unworthy, uncomfortable - pretty much the way you feel when the pretty girl in high school sits down next to you and starts chatting. That feeling has diminished somewhat over time, but I still think I suck at it. I can be myself with some folks - certainly Rahul Lahiri and Gary Price from Ask.com, and Vanessa & Amanda from Google. I'm still horribly uncomfortable around Tim Mayer (with whom I haven't spent much social time) and probably show it. I'm OK with Matt Cutts & Adam Lasnik, but always have this weird mix of guilt and nervousness. There's tons of questions I'd love to ask them about webmaster stuff, but feel that they get so much of that already from Cuttlet-types that I'd be an ass to do that to them in their drinking/eating/merriment-making time. I also don't feel totally comfortable being myself and just shooting the breeze. I worry that they'll think I'm sucking up to them or trying to be nice just because they hold the keys at Google.
I have no doubt that it must be equally awkward and frustrating for a lot of the reps themselves. They probably feel like the lottery winner at his high school reunion - you're never sure if the folks who are being friendly to you do so because they really like you or because they want something from you (and it's almost always the latter). They almost certainly get bombarded with the same questions again and again. I wonder if it hurts them to hang out with someone like me at a conference, exchange a few friendly "ha-ha" type emails and then get a request to look at a specific site and think - "man... all along he wasn't really my friend; he just wanted to get close to me so I could help his clients."
I do a lot of things to try and make myself feel more "above-board" about my relationships with these folks:
- Try, as much as humanly possible, to ask them pointed questions during sessions or directly after (just like all the other conference attendees)
- Only send over e-mails asking for a look on sites that a) I think they'd really want to have indexed/ranking and b) are not clients (it's a weird paradigm; if you're a client, I really feel like it's cheating for me to ask for help from the SE reps - I rarely do it... actually only twice ever as far as I know)
- Stay away from webmaster-y subjects at bars, restaurants and parties
- Never, ever, ever directly pitch or advertise by saying that I have "personal relationships with SE reps" - it makes my ethics center (is that in the stomach? it feels like the stomach) hurt when I hear/see other SEOs do it
Even with these, I still feel torn up about it. I wish I could relax and have fun with Matt & Adam and the Tims from Yahoo! (Mayer & Converse). I even get that butterfly feeling a little with Danny Sullivan - not because I need/want something from him, but because I get that same sensation that a lot of folks befriend him disingenuously and I don't want him to think I do that, too. In all honesty, I think that Rebecca has an easier time hanging out with all those folks because she doesn't have the same paranoia about conflict of interest that I do. She can be herself fully without worrying that any of these folks will think she's being clingy or Cuttlet-y.
For those of you who read this blog and have similar experiences, what do you do? Any advice?
Hey Rand, Tim Mayer is a really nice guy. Just go up and say hi, I am sure he will provide you an endless wealth of knowledge. I learned quite a bit from him when we worked together.
Relax, Rand.
Start getting slightly drunk a little more quickly.
Dave
I'm friends with several people at different engines... I just treat them normally. I also never talk about business in social settings. To be honest, I rarely talk about business with those I consider my *friends* at all. I never have a hidden agenda and I've been told by the several friends I have that happen to be at engines that when people are genuine, they can tell. I don't care who they work for - I'm looking at personalities. Talk to who you like Rand, regardless of who they work for. Pretend the company doesn't exist. Much like we say "link as if search engines didn't exist", "befriend as if search engines didn't exist". My two cents.
So that's what that feelin was all about this week at SES. I thought it was the repeated nights of excessive consumption. I felt nervous meeting you, Rand (I asked you about upgrades to the Page Strength tool). I'm not even an SEO guy in the truest sense (up and coming ;) ), but I admired the success many at the conference had made for themselves and felt out of place...but whatever, I didn't have to pay for it, learned alot, and came away with some new friends. :)
I don't have any relationships with Engine reps but wish I had. I'm notebly shy. How about a post about "how to make a relationship" instead of "manage." I need a wingman. LOL
It sounds like we might need to get together and form a support group. I hear there is power in numbers...
Ah yes - that oh so familiar feeling...
Rand - that's exactly the way I felt the first time I was introduced to you. Now I am quite comfortable with you and Rebecca, as well as Neil, Cameron, and all the other truly amazing talent I hung out with this week. It does wonders to be able to "hang out" with folks - I beleive eating a meal with someone is the ultimate ice breaker and bonding experience, and is something I try hard to do in a client services role. The hard part is, can you bond and keep shop-talk to a minimum?
I did, in fact, have a beautiful girl come sit next to me this week - and I felt just like what you described. turned out to be Giselle from DM News who I ended up befriending and hanging out with this week. You just never know...
I still feel that way about Danny and Matt though. Silly, cause I've been on panels with Danny (two this week) - yet I don't ever approach him after sessions because I fear that he will think I am buttering him up. Not sure what to do about that one until someone (REBECCA???) invites me to a table with Danny so we can "chat".
I've had no qualms (and have often enjoyed) chatting with the vast majority of SEO/Webmaster folks... not because they necessarily knew what to ask and not ask (I could generally care less... I'll chuckle and admit when I can't say something about a topic), but because they appropriately take social cues.
GOOD: - Talking about Web / geek stuff and/or - Talking about non-geeky stuff - Introducing me to friends and colleagues when they're around
BAD: - Monopolizing my time (been done several times) - Following me into the bathroom (happened once) - Yelling at me or bitching at me for more than 15 minutes nonstop (happened twice)
It's probably not shocking that the above good/bad list applies equally well to professional and social interactions outside of SEO :P. And, in case you weren't absolutely sure, Rand, you haven't exhibited anything on the "bad" list with me, or even close.
* * *
Show me an industry in which positive, friendly relationships aren't built up, and... well, that'd be a hell of a lonely life.
* * *
Okay, so this *IS* longer than I intended (it's your blog, not my soapbox :P)... but I gotta say one more thing:
It's quite often the people who most worry whether they're doing something wrong that actually least need to worry. Contrastingly, it's those who are oblivious to or don't give a whit about social and professional conventions (and their role within them) that are most often the most annoying offenders.
There's an old saying: if you have to ask how much something costs, you probably can't afford it. But I prefer this one: if you have to ask whether you're being a total jerk, you probably aren't :)
P.S. -- To demonstrate the humorous multi-layeredness of all of this... I'll admit I was freaked out actually sitting near Danny at dinner a few months back. Holy *$@!, the Search God himself! :o
Thanks, Adam. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. It's funny to read through these comments - people are nervous around me, I'm nervous around you, you're nervous around Danny - and Danny's nervous around Mystery Guest :)
I think I'm so nonchalant about meeting SEO "rockstars" because they're people like Rand, and I work with Rand every day (who's considered to be a rockstar by other folks in the industry, I'm sure). They're just people who do what I do, so no nerves here.
Also, since I'm still new to SEO and have lots to learn, I don't have quite as many burning questions I'm dying to ask people--therefore, I'm content to chat someone up and get to know that person because it's something I can do without making an ass of myself :)
I know you guys are joking, but seriously, this was my first time at PubCon, and I've never been so nervous to talk to a guy who was drinking beer and playing with yo-yo swag while wearing yellow Pumas... :P
I don’t like to bother people with my stupid SEO questions at the parties and social hours events ether. However… I have learned that this is the best place to talk about SEO and affiliate marketing topics that people are uncomfortable speaking about in public.
Sometimes… If you ask the right questions, people tend to give you truthful answers in private or semi-private conversations on topics they wouldn’t normally blog about. Some people are very forthcoming after a few drinks as well. It’s all part of the fun of attending the events. I wish that I would have gone to Chicago just so that I could have gone to the SEOFangirl Pizza party. I seriously missed out on that one. Dooooh!
So basically, everyone's nervous around everyone else...
This would have been an excellent case study in all those psychology and sociology classes. If only I knew then what I know now.
Rebecca - thanks for the laugh! Now we'll see if Rand can keep a straight face during your next site review or if he'll be completely sidetracked by the thought of you "peeing a little". ;)
Yeah, and that girl's always eating asparagus for breakfast which only adds to my concern.
We could definitely segue this conversation with a psychological debate on subconscious fears. Nevertheless, it's nice to everyone involved in this conversation, making it even more awkward next time you see each other. ;)
Luckily Danny is so considerate and funny that he treats everybody with respect and he's usually got a good tale to tell.
I liked Todd's list of conversation starters: https://www.stuntdubl.com/2006/12/03/conversat...
and agree that chatting in the bathroom is slightly off. But getting the ball rolling with one of the one of the other openings is good. I sometimes find it harder to chat one on one, so if there's several folks around that can help. It's nearly always true that people like to talk about themselves, so breaking the ice might just be asking about someone else's week or how they feel about some controversial topic--but not politics! ;)
And it's always nice if there's a drunk and/or brazen blackhat around. They fill in the quiet spaces in the conversation. :)
It totally freaks me out that anyone would be nervous talking to me. Just come up! I also have a pretty good "just buttering him up" detector. It rarely goes off because the vast majority of people are totally not doing that.
I've seen the reps get hit much harder than me, and my suggestions pretty much echo something similar to Adam.
The main issue is monopolizing time. Most people seem to naturally know to when to let someone else have a chance, after they've asked a question and responded. A very few will keep asking and asking, sort of oblivious to others either waiting or the fact that the rep or speaker might want to now do some other things (like eat lunch, pee or go "off duty" after having done a session and answered lots of questions).
Probably the second to this is the rare person who isn't satisified asking the same question to just one person. I've literally seen one person take the same question around to more than seven different speakers, some of them multiple reps from the same service (Google). I also know they kept getting the same answer. I can see asking a rep and a non-search rep a question, or maybe two non-reps that might have different opinions or two reps from the same search engine to see if they are on the same page. But there's a point it becomes overkill :)
Aside from that, I confess I still do get butterflies around Rand....
You're telling me! Sometimes I pee a little when we're doing site reviews together...he's so intimidating it's terrifying... ;)
I thought that you were the total opposite of me Rand, you always seem so comfortable and self-assured with everyone.
Although I act quite the smart-arse Essex boy around people I know, I can be very shy around strangers (no matter who they are). You may have noticed this when I was rather quiet during the Chinese meal and then had verbal diarrhea in the bar afterwards. This probably comes across as being anti-social which doesn't help matters.
It's a shame really, as the few people I did step out on the ledge and talk to were extremely nice and would now consider them friends.
As for "talking shop" with the SEO/SE Celebs, I save that for forums and email conversations. That way they can either ignore me or answer when they've got a spare minute. In person, I'm more interested in knowing them on a personal level or debate industry matters with them only when they bring it up.
Look forward to meeting you again,
Rob
Rand - I know that I am often overcome by the butterflies in my stomach each time I talk to Mr. Sullivan, as well (swoon). Please advise.
Not met the engineers personally yet - but had a couple of dreams recently with Matt Cutts in. Most recent, a few nights ago, had me explaining to him that I really am trying to be much more whitehat with my sites these days, and anything obviously low quality was either gone or going. Sad, huh? :)
Would never describe Matt Cutts as a "pretty girl", though. That's just classic, Rand:)
You'd far rather own up to spending your nights dreaming of bearded men? :p
I think the best approach is to initially build a good relationship with them. In my opinion, you are right to think they don't always want to be talking about webmastery stuff (especially when they are at the bars and such having a good time).
The answers will come in time, and having the foundation of a good relationship first will make it all the better. Think of the relationship you have with Vanessa. I saw the video interview you did with her, and you can tell you guys are good friends just from the way you joke around. You said you feel completely comfortable around her and about asking her questions. So the best thing to do, it would seem, is to build a relationship and let the rest slowly come.
That was pretty much the advice I got from Rae Hoffman when I was going to be meeting up with her and her gang.
I find the hardest part is only posting or asking questions when you have something worthwhile to say. It's so easy to slip into "fangirl" mode and squee all over the famous, who then run away and avoid you for the rest of the night.
The only way, as you said, it to relax and be yourself.
I think a part of the conflict is that we don't have the same goals -- while it's not exactly a cops + robbers, it is still always a "I want to get XYZ into the index and ranking well" vs "We want to get relevant content for our users ranking well", which turns into a "how can I get XYZ to look like relevant content even if it might not be?" :-)
Where else can you get two sides of the picture at the same conference and hang out with them for a bit of social-life? Could you imagine the police going to a sports-car-conference and hanging out with the drivers and dealers? "Let's have another round of beer and please tell me how that new 'bigdaddy'-radar works ...."
For those of us who are unable to even get a response when we email a search engine about a general issue or a banned site its not good to hear that anybody can email somebody like Matt and get a real answer.
Is anybody comfortable around Tim Mayer? He seems nice enough, but his engine gets nailed all day every day at these events. I don't know how he doesn't just stand up and yell "Shut up all of you leave me a lone, Waaa hahaa!" and run away.
I think the whole community of SEOs is scared of Matt and Adam. It is nearly impossible to have a 100% perfect and clean linking history... I mean come on, how can you NOT submit your site to like 100 FFA link farms when you first started? It gives me a pit in my stomach when I think what a dope I was when I first started compared to now. I always think one day they'll look at a site and be like "Aha! I KNEW you submitted your site to 100 worthless directories! YOU SIR, ARE BANALIZED!"
Banalized?
That sounds.....painful.
Rand,
It's just an interesting situation. SEOs are on the opposite side of the Engineers even though we kind of try to go into the same direction. We want the clients to beat their competition and engineers try to keep things fair and natural.
It's kind of like having a dinner with your girlfriend's ex boyfriend (not that I had the pleasure to do that). You both are interested in one "thing" and yet you're on the different side of the barrels.
I didn't speak with Matt and even if I did, I wouldn't have many questions because I am sure that unless it's a specific question about indexing or other function that Google does (that they can share), you won't get answers that will help you rank your clients better tomorrow.
For example take Google's answer about PPC ad ranking. I think they are looking at all data available (budget, CTR, urchin analytics, toolbar, etc) and yet they deny or lately ignore the question.
I worked in music before becoming an SEO bod (no, there's no logical link...) and it was much the same there. You kinda get used to hanging round with people who's CD's you own, who you've seen at gigs and so on. But it's always there at the back of their minds (and you can see it), "Are they being friendly because they want an industry leg-up?" Only way to show you're a nice person, is to just be a nice person. Don't pester them. Talk to them and be interested in them as a person. If you're talking to Matt, then talk to Matt, don't talk to "the guy who can give me ranking tips".
If you treat people how they'd like to be treated, and honour your relationship with them as a person, not just for what they can do for you, you'll both get something out of it. And then everyone's happy.
> it's cheating for me to ask for help from the SE reps
> Stay away from webmaster-y subjects at bars, restaurants and parties
Those are numbers 2 & 3 of my top 3 personal rules. I put a lot of emphasis on not tainting a good friendship with work-related issues --and most certainly not specific site problems.
As for "stay away from webmaster-y subjects," we try and it sometimes lasts for an hour, sometimes 15 minutes. For those of us on either side of The Game, it's what we live & breathe daily, so it's hard work NOT to drift into the topic.
But the A#1 rule is to honor a confidence. If an SE rep says it's "off the record" then it's OFF the record. If I suspect that something said was meant to be heard only by those around the table then I will do them the courtesy of asking them if that was meant for public consumption rather than running to the nearest forum to blab.
Hehehehe, Rand, I felt that way when I met you in Toronto this year and I know even though I've met you once I will have butterflies next time I see you too. I sat at a table with you, Guillaume, Jim B and I think Andy Beal and some other top SEOs and I was just in awe. I felt like I knew nothing in comparison to the knowledge that sat around that table eating soggy sandwiches talking about the Vn7 contest and anything I said would immediately place my foot in my mouth.
Reading all the blogs and articles creates an effect where you feel like you know someone from reading their day to day thoughts, but the butterflies come when you realize that you're just a little SEO peon and all these great people don't even know who you are. *sigh!*
Here is a highly relevant link:
https://www.seoloser.com/2006/11/21/pubcon-las...
Really good post Rand. I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who feels a little strange talking to the SE royal family. But don't be too modest Rand, you are pretty close to being in the SEO elite yourself. :)
I couldn't imagine how Matt, Tim or even Danny feel when people approach them at conferences...but I always wonder if they realize that a lot of the SE rank-and-file asking them questions are having that "I might puke on this guy's shoe" feeling.
I don't think this is all bad... sure, it might be a little nicer not to have that butterfly feeling, but it is also that feeling and the "Am I comfortable doing/asking this?" type questions that are always in the back of your mind that keep you from regretting ever stepping over the line.
There is something to be said about the roles and positions involved and upholding a higher standard, especially in an industry that is still young, vastly questioned and critiqued by the rest of the world, and one where others may not uphold that same level of ethics. And it is probably safe to say that if Rebecca, or any of the other SEOmoz staff for that matter, was in the same position, they'd feel the same way... after all, it is no doubt that you've surrounded yourself with good, ethical, upstanding people.
If anything, the bigger concern may be when you stop having these feelings entirely... how quickly then do the lines begin to blur and shift?
Rand - What you feel is very normal and the only reason you are a bit awkward around the BIG BOYS and GIRLS is that you feel not at their level yet. I bet you would not be nervous if the girl at high school came and sat next you now? Some day soon you will not be awkward around those guys as well...
Then you have funny guys like The SEO Loser who just walks right up to anyone with not a care in the world. That makes for some extreme comedy and I can kind of relate to that. ;-o
Hay Rand,
The first time I met you, I had no idea who you were so I felt perfectly comfortable asking you my stupid questions. Now, I'm a bit more self conscious in these situations so I save my stupid questions for Rebecca.