Tonight, I got to meet one of my all-time SEO heroes for the first time in person - Ammon Johns. Living up to his mystical reputation, he instantly gave me some advice for the SEOmoz website that I think will serve quite well for the future. He also regaled me with some hilarious stories, some deep insight into the SEO field (and why SEO isn't really what it should be called at all) and, uncharacteristically, we got into a bit of an argument over dinner (Ammon, myself and Elisabeth Osmeloski's fiance, Matthew) over the value of a college degree.
In certain fields - medicine, engineering, the physical sciences and law - I cannot argue against the idea that a degree is absolutely essential. However, Ammon and I both agreed that, outside of these and a few other rigidly regimented fields, the degree's value in the working world is more of a formality than a true marker of a quality individual. In higher learning, it's often the reputation and "brand name" of the professor(s) you study under that determine your "value" on the street, regardless of the true quality of education received.
However, with undergraduate degrees, Ammon and I could not agree on the question - given all else was equal, would you (as a search marketing consultantcy) hire a new employee with a degree in marketing, or one who had not completed a degree. My answer was always to take the non-degreed candidate and Ammon had a strong preference the other way.
Rand's Reasons:
- A degreed professional often has to be "un-trained" as the usual collegiate degree is virtually useless in the search field, and the marketing drivel spouted by professors 10, 20 or more years out of the profession is often worse than nothing at all.
- Degreed candidates, in my experience, will often feel that the world "owes" them more than the boot-strapper who hasn't been through University (thankfully, this doesn't apply to any of SEOmoz's staff, who are remarkably humble, but they're the exceptions, IMO).
- Degreed candidates are more expensive to start - if all else really is "equal," why pay more for a piece of paper?
- Taking a chance on someone who doesn't quite fit the mold is my cup of tea - I'd rather take a few bets, lose a few times, and occassionally be rewarded with something (or, in this case, someone) truly spectacular than take the road more traveled.
Ammon's Reasons (from memory, so hopefully he'll post if he had more):
- A degree shows a dedication to stick to something and follow-through, even if the experience was hard work or under-appreciated.
- A degree carries weight outside the search industry that may come in handy in the future, even if it doesn't appear so now.
- Degrees can include an educational background in the fundamentals of statistical analysis and marketing that aren't often found outside the academic world (great for analyzing data and grasping the concepts of a marketing strategy).
- School creates a social environment that is often mimicked in the workplace.
To be completely truthful and honest, I bring a massive amount of personal baggage and emotion to this issue, so it's very hard for me to be objective. My own experiences in business school with professors, students and, later graduates who have come in for interviews or sent resumes was exceptionally dissapointing.
What's your view? Should SEO firms be hiring college grads with business and marketing degrees, or should they take a chance on the self-taught?
p.s. If you do decide to go (back) to school, check out ThatAdamGuy's checklist for making a decision (had loads of fun kicking it with him tonight, too).
I'm of the school that you learn by doing. Or as Bruce Springsteen sang "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in school."
You can't teach (or learn) drive and motivation You can't teach(or learn) creativity and expression You can't teach (or learn) fearlessness and risk-taking
In my opinion these are the most important traits to achieving personal and professional success.
And that's why I think Jon Mendez is one of the smartest folks I've ever met in this game - cheers, mate!
I think that having a degree can be very important - but it's certainly not the core factor which qualifies a candidate. My own degrees are in violin performance and classical civilizations - do those have any particular relation to my current career? Nope. However, I think that the fact that I have those degrees carries some weight, as Ammon said, to demonstrate a commitment to carrying something through. (At least, I sure hope so...)
The fact is, I never owned a computer until after I graduated from college - almost 100% of what I do today was learned after I finished school.
However, the debate here seems to have been between whether a person with a degree in marketing is preferable to a person with no degree at all - I'd like to think that neither of those situations are actually signifcantly relevant at all. What matters is the way the candidates think and process information - if they are innovative, creative, thorough people then they are qualified - period.
Either situation, in and of itself, is hopelessly abstract - if I were to hire somebody, I would not be hiring "Joe Smith, who has a degree in marketing", I'd be hiring "Joe Smith, who is brilliantly original and will benefit my company."
Thought I'd add my two cents worth here.
Marketing is my third career. I started in Technical Support, moved into Web Consulting, and after having been burned by the first dot-com crash, moved into Marketing. At 30 years old, I'm a year from finishing my degree. I like to say that I wanted to be sure what I wanted to study, but the truth is, I started working right out of high school, couldn't afford college (nor did I have the grades for it), and before I knew it, a full decade had passed. (Turns out that I always had an affinity for Marketing, even if my aptitude for computer work is what manifested itself sooner.)
While I also agree that being about to learn outside of school is important (we call ourselves autodidacts), when the job market in Seattle soured, the degree (or lack thereof) became the first criteria many recruiters looked for. In a "soft" job market, it's a bit easier to get by on your skills, but to say that a degree isn't worth anything isn't necessarily true. It can be worth a lot to someone who doesn't have one.
From an employer standpoint, I'd rather have someone with the skills than a degree or certificate that says that they should have the skills, but is unable to demonstrate them. That's why I think more interviews should focus on what you've done, and what you know, than where you went to school.
On a personal note, I am learning more than I thought I would in school, and I think it's because my attitude and motivation are different now than they were 10 years ago. I'm finding that school is a great place to learn how to apply skills, as opposed to just learning theory. Frankly, I'd like to see more schools put their curriculm online and stop being in the business of selling knowledge. Sell the application of knowledge, and that will make your degrees far more valuable. Have you noticed that the schools from whom a degree is highly coveted all excel in application rather than just knowledge alone?
Ok, so that was closer to twenty cents. :)
One thing I love about SEO is that it isn't just tech OR marketing OR stats OR design - it's ALL of these and more. I know that being a trained sociologist and having an extensive statistical and demographics oriented background made me a more appealing candidate than other applicants for my position without degrees - but I totally agree with everyone else who mentioned that it's not the degree but the desire of the person to WANT to learn more everyday about ALL of the fields that compose SEO and not someone who is stuck in their ways of doing things. I think degree holders generally like to learn new things which is how they make it through university, and that is a great trait to have for this position. Of course, there are lots of people out there who love to learn new things that don't have degrees as well. It's the desire to learn, not necessarily the degree to 'prove' it, that makes people attractive to this role.
I very much like this "desire to learn" rationale.
I've always thought that out of the (semi) original four of us--Rand, Matt, Kat, and myself--Rand and Matt do not need degrees to advance their careers.
Rand has innate people skills and is a natural businessman. He is a great CEO and makes great decisions, and holding a business degree isn't going to make him greater. If he were to look for a job beyond SEOmoz, I doubt he'd have any problems because he doesn't have a degree.
Matt has a very specialized job, one where it's more commonly believed that it doesn't matter if you have a degree in computer science or whatever, so long as you know what the hell you're doing. Since he's a valuable commodity and clearly knows his stuff, I doubt he'd have problems getting hired beyond SEOmoz.
Now, if I were to try and find a job if SEOmoz went down (I don't want to exclusively speak for Kat, although we have pretty much the same job title), at this point because I am still relatively new and haven't developed an SEO "specialty" quite yet, I don't think I could bring anything to the table that would differentiate me from a non degree-holding hire. In my opinion, the experience at SEOmoz + my college degree would open up more opportunities for me than either one on its own. I don't think my SEO knowledge is strong enough alone, but combined with a college degree, I'd like to think it makes me more marketable.
I'm just telling you guys what the situation is like for me. I could give a crap that Rand and Matt don't hae degrees. I don't think I'm better than them because I'm $13k in debt but have a fancy schmancy degree. I'm actually jealous of them because of what they know. Personally, I plan on going to grad school within the next few years because I want to open more financial doors (unless you're promising otherwise, Rand...hint hint).
I hope that my BA is worth something.
Rand, maybe the question should revolve around hiring someone with a business or marketing degree vs. someone who doesn't. I would clump people with degrees other than business and marketing and those who simply don't have degrees together.
For example, how would you feel about hiring a guy like me with a BA in International Relations as a SEM/SEO? Would you have to "un-train" me? How would I differ from someone who doesn't have an undergraduate degree?
Of all the hires we done (about 30 or so at this point) the degreed employees have so far outshown the non-degreed that I seriously doubt we would consider hiring anyone at this point without a degree.
I know there are some pretty bright jokers without degrees (Gates & Ellison for example) but for the most part, those with degrees do tend to be better rounded I think and have a better work ethic.
In regards to Jonathan's post, I learned all those things. Not from school, but from Jim Valvano, Tommy Lasorda, Sam Walton and a few other unknown names -- all of which I was lucky enough to have as mentors growing up. Those fortunate enough to have spent a day or two with Jim Valvano I assure you walked away having learned about every one of those values.... and also how to laugh and cry -- which are equally as important.
This isn't to argue that point -- I just happen to disagree with it. If motivation isn't learned, why are there so many people trying to motivate young children? Why are there so many adults who attribute their success to someone who motivated them as a child? Personally, had I not grown up in an orphanage and been exposed to some of the greatest people in the world, I am quite certain I would not be where I am today. I'd probably be stuck in the standard 9 to 5 grind and just existing in this world versus living in it.
Man do I like Jimmy V. But that is beside the point
1. Interesting set of comments. Rand, If your so tied up around the issue...step back from it for a while, reserve judgements and then rethink it w/less emotion tied to it.
2. So many interesting comments and perspectives. One thing it seems to me is that curricula about this subject ought to be developed and updated. Then you could get the best of 2 worlds...updated knowledgeable instruction and the degree.
3. most degrees don't connect well with most jobs. You learn so much more on the job about that job and industry. Still there are many values connected to the degree...and many of them have been expressed here.
Loved the comments.
Dave
Not to get too Dr. Melfi on the thread but I believe that inspiration comes from within (some of) us. LoveTheCoast, how much did you really learn from Valvano, et al versus being inspired from their stories? I'm not sure you can teach someone to be inspired.
I think if you're teaching or instructing something well, everyone you explain it to in your audience should be able to learn it and do it. That is the goal of schooling, which is really nothing more than an aggregation of similarity. This brings up another argument for the non-degree camp that is that school itself is pedantic (which, when I looked up the definition also means uninspired...hmmm).
Not to be snide or disrespectful but I'm sure not everyone that Jim Valvano touched was able to find it within to better themselves as you did. From your post it seems your mentors helped get you in touch with emotional learning. I'm not sure there is an analogous practical business learning at an MBA program but of course now I'm interested if anyone has an example.
...and thanks for the kind words Rand. Right back at you.
We can just agree to disagree then.
While I believe a certain level of inspiration comes from within, the vast majority comes from those who touch us as we grow. A child in an environment with no encouragement generally does not "pull himself up by the bootstraps" and make something of himself without inspiration.
Take that same child and give him a mentor. Teach him he's better than nothing. Then that child becomes inspired. Then that child makes something of himself.
I have to think this is the reason more rural kids grow up to make something of themselves verses those growing up in the ghetto. If inspiration is totally within, the same percentage of ghetto kids would grow up to be stars.
I'd be willing to bet everything I own that 99 out of 100 people reading this post that consider themselves successful, or strive to be successful (whatever their personal measure of success may be) has been inspired -- and by someone *other* than themselves.
If you want a robot for your business you'll have a better chance hiring a guy with a degree. I don't mean that in a bad way either, if you want a guy or gal who will toe the line and do what you tell them to do then someone with a degree is probably better suited for that job. They have been conditioned to follow the rules and have been taught (for the most part) how to stay in one job until they 1. retire or 2. get laid off/fired. Though they may set the building on fire when leaving.Â
Because, let's be honest, we want them to loyal to the point where you kick them out the door, then you just hope they don't give the trade secrets away or you'll sue them in hopes of keeping them quiet.Let's face it, a guy or gal without a degree is most likely 1. really bad at school, 2. made a mistake in life and can't find a way to go back, 3. is really stubborn, or 4. (and usually both) a terminal entrepenuer. Rand was nearly a terminal entrepenuer (still might be at heart). I'm both stubborn and a terminal entrepenuer mixed with two (I have two kids and wife out of work right now).There's exceptions to every rule, but for the most part if your looking for an employee then you'll be looking for a guy with a degree.
If you're looking for a diamond in the rough you can find them in either category but it's still difficult. Degreed people will usually come out of the box thinking they (know it all, which has been maddening to me. I know a few marketing guys in school and out of school who think they know SEO as well as me but have no experience in it. I really dislike talking to them about this even though they are close friends and family.) (Caveat, probably the best way to find one of these guys is ask about their library of marketing information. Mine is vast, I've probably spent 30 to 40k on my marketing education outside of college.)What really gets me is that we're pre-programmed to believe that a degree makes you more or less able to do a job. A degree in some cases (not a doctor, chiropractor, or medical person) means that you're able to get your brains beat in for four years. That's probably a good indication that you've got a good employee on your hands as long as they don't join your local company frat, drink, and party all night (just kidding, this doesn't exist in anyone's business).Honestly, when my own businesses get going, I'm going to look at both categories equally. But, a degreed person is going to have a better chance of finding a job that actually allows you to live (above the $15 hour range). Frustrating but true, it doesn't matter how good you are (unless you have massive PR and a name). You're going to hit a glass ceiling.
Yes, I admit it, I edited this article because I put too many e's in degree. I might feel strongly about this issue.
Oh, and I have to add. I thought there was a reason I liked you so much Rand. Entrepenuers unite!
My goodness, I'm surprised and bummed that I missed this thread earlier. What amazingly thoughtful and insightful comments all 'round, and a big thank you, Rand, for both starting this topic and also offering a friendly shout-out to me :-)
I should note up front that I'm one of the overeducated folks. I studied Political Science and Communications in undergrad, and then a few years later got a law degree and an MBA.
I don't think my degrees indicate that I'm a smarter person or a better person... and they CERTAINLY do not say anything about my work ethic or general integrity. I have seen (and on a few occasions worked with) a number of brilliant and hardworking folks who literally flunked out of college... and conversely I've also had the displeasure of working with quite-educated people who are dullards or jerks or both.
* * *
When I've done hiring (and, coincidentally when I've evaluated people as friends or dates), I've pondered a couple key questions: - What has this person DONE in their life? - How have they used their opportunities and experiences to grow as a person?
For instance, when someone boasts of a 4.0 in college I want to know... how did they balance their classroom achievements with extracurricular, philanthropic, or cultural pursuits (if at all)? If someone didn't attend college at all, I want to know... how curious about the world are they? Did they travel? Hone their writing thoughfully via a blog or other venue?
* * *
Unfortunately, it's obvious that a lot of HR departments lack the time and/or dedication to screen candidates holistically. But I'd hope that smaller companies or folks seeking business partners would take the time to look beyond the numbers and evaluate people in a broader, more sensible way.
* * *
As for me... what about all my degrees? Were they worth it? I'm not sure. For instance, I probably remember 0.42% of the specific laws and accounting rules I crammed into my head. But the time I spent learning how to thoughtfully skim large amounts of complex text, improving how I communicate with others on my MBA teams, managing to prioritize a zillion different school-related and extra-curricular tasks, not to mention the opportunities I enjoyed getting to play with an absolutely amazing computer network... I believe all of this made me a smarter, better person :)
Hmm.... Refresh my memory, Rand. Do you have a degree? Just so we know where you're coming from.
As for your peeps opinions - I would expect them to not take the boss out at the knees in this situation, so there's probably some bias there.
One can also build a very strong network in college. And if the field is marketing (not SEO-specific), I don't see how you could hire anything but a "person with paper". The average non-degreed Joe doing marketing is only getting the chance to market by building a business that also needs marketing - and it may take decades before he'd have the opportunity to market a service on a big stage before a big audience (if it only took him 5-10 years, you wouldn't have to worry about hiring him, but you might be working for him!) - so hiring non-papered people for that type of work would be a big mistake, IMHO.
Some people do exceedingly well without a degree - but you're kidding yourself if there's a causal relationship there.
@Aaron Pratt - Glad I wasn't the only one having a Beavis & Butthead moment there with the "big one" post. Rand, you need to get some sleep.
These discussions always amuse me...
I hold all of the degrees in my field... I spent one career as a manager at a government agency... I spent a second career as a University professor... and now I am stepping up to the position of webmaster/author/SEO/retailer of a tiny e-commerce and e-info businesss.
I spent one of these careers observing the hiring practices of companies - some extremely successful and some bankrupt. The most successful companies - we are talking here about the one percent of the best, not just profitable. These companeis understand one thing very clearly.... You are not hiring a degree, you are hiring the characteristics of a person.
These best companies realize that there are a small number of people who have ten times the productive or creative or competitive abilities of the average person.
Each year, these companies send three recruiters over 1000 miles to call on one school. They arrive BEFORE hiring season begins and they ask.... Who are your best? Who are the ones who know how to get a job done right? Who are the ones who exceed your expectations - every time? They don't ask every professor these questions. They ask professors who have corporate experience and who teach coursess where they have close contact with students and get to know them well. They are not looking for graduating seniors, instead they are looking for sophomores and juniors for internships.
They spend two days talking with students, taking them to lunches and evening meals. Not any student will get to see these recruiters. Only the best. After this maybe two to four students will be invited for interviews and flown to the corporate office for two days. About 1/2 of these students will be offered summer internships at very nice rates of pay. After two years of internships some of these students will begin their senior year with one or more job offers from different divisions of the company. The rates of pay are much higher than competetive.
These companies know that they can pay over 50% more than average if they get a person who is 10x more productive or inventive than average. Good economics.
Again... These companies are not hiring a degree, they are hiring the characteristics of the person. They connect with these students very early in their education, see first hand how they will perform, and court them with nice internships and great salaries.
To close... These companies do expect every one of their new hires to complete the degree. The degree offers a rounded package of training and experience that is hard to duplicate through self study. What do students get out of this degree? They get out of it what they put into earning it. Again it comes back to the characteristics of the person.
I agree with EGOL on this type of practice, and to a much lesser degree, it is what I do. Every year I gather up a group of starving college students and overpay them for a job that can probably be done for a lot less overseas. However, I watch them a lot closer than they realize, and look to see how they react to certain situations, what kind of initiave they take, whether or not they try to learn skillsets on their own time to try and carve out a piece of business for themselves at the company...those that do, I tend to hire full-time, regardless of whether or not they want to go back to college [I do push for them to get a degree in something though, just so they have it for themselves...like Ammon says, one never knows.]
To me having a degree is like having a stamp on you that says, "I can accomplish tasks". College is not a preparation for the workforce. There is an article in the most recent Fortune magazine about a new industry that is springing up to train people to enter the workforce after they finish college. Huh?
The other thing is that Ammons is hiring in England. I think there is a difference in the type of education you get that makes this a different argument abroad.
As someone who never finished University, at this point it is too late to finish. If I were to counsel any young person, I would say that they would never regret getting their degree.
As far as internet marketing is concerned, I think at this point you have to learn everything outside of school. So, you hire and train or find someone a couple years of experience from a credible source.
"I owe a big one to Allan Dick"
That just sounds wrong dude! ;-0
But on a serious note, SEO firms would benefit from hiring people who are beyond college, creative geniuses like Dax Hererra. SEO firms and the whole industry (if you believe there is one...not!) is lacking a sense of humor. If I was to build a SEO group I would ask questions like.
1. Ever done LSD? 2. Are you a risk taker? 3. Have any strange habits? 4. What's in your wallet? 5. Ever build your own computer from spare parts? 6. What online games do you enjoy? 7. What is the spammiest website you own?
Degrees are overrated, especially in any industry related to the internet.
I always hear the opposing side saying "A degree will help you become well-rounded" or "It shows you will committ to something for an extended period of time."
I think these people are missing the point. Isn't the whole point of school/college is to LEARN? Life in itself takes a well-rounded person. Anyone of at least average intelligence is well-rounded. Anyone below that, are most likely not going to college anyway.
I went to college for 4.5 years, but I did not graduate. I gained more out of my early years (general ed classes) than I did my later years. I can not attribute any credit to my university for any gained knowledge or skills my 3rd or 4th year, which is why I quit.
I am a competent web designer making a decent living in Portland, Oregon right now. Making more money than all of my college graduate friends. In my opinion, degrees don't have much significance if you have the hunger for knowledge and passionate about what you do.
I think to generalize people into two groups, degreed and non-degreed is the problem. Why not let it be just one characteristic when considering the individual for employment. I wouldn't want to assume good or bad in either situation
Great point belasco.
After school a person has a choice: start making things or continue learning. These strategies are different and improves different skills and every person should select one that perfectly match his/her natural inclinations. Or mix them in some perfect proportion.
And any company should hire people with different abilities: one can quickly catch a new things, find alternatives or do a research work, and another can make a thing: bridge between the researched idea and a product for selling.
My oppinion is that univercity improves learnign and problem-solving abilities, when real work improves undestanding customers and making abilities. And only joined together whithin one team they can bring a success to the team.
And I believe that this question is meaningless when it is applied to one particular person. Asking "Is the degree good?" is similar to asking "Are you good?". When you have degree you will tell that it is good, when you have not--the degree is not good. Actualy this is because degreed does not know how to be non-degreed and vice versa.
And of course, people frequently selects a wrong way: improve learning when he/she is better in making or vise versa. So this is a manager's task to select a right person for particular task and the key question is "Did this person degree really improve his/her inclinations?" And there is nothing wrong with degreed person doing a right things, as well as there is nothing wring with non-degreed.
Degree is not making a difference, people are.
I strongly believe that degree makes difference. Not because of I am a degree holder in computer science, but i have experience of it. In today's world only "Knowledge" is not important. But you should have certain "Skills" that makes difference. Degree holder can adopt such "Skills" easily. Degree holder can understand technical side very easily.
While I share your bias against business and marketing degrees, I come from a rewarding liberal arts (and later graduate computer science) background.
Although your debate was "marketing degree" vs. "no degree," I find that liberal-arts type attributes are the most valuable in the marketing/web/seo world: -learned how to learn -can solve problems using methods from the academic world
Good luck at SES Rand!
I say it's not worth it to focus on the field of degree, but it is worth it to focus on education. I'm a proponent of a very early-1900s school of thought that one should go to college to become well-rounded and educated on a number of subjects. Hence that I worked in tech, studied language, and went abroad.
As the average person will change their career over five times in their lifetime and most often end up doing something in which they have no schooled certification, field of study is of little importance to me unless it is absolutely mandatory.
Take, for example, my degrees. Usless except for the experience I built myeslf. Journalism.: either you have the knack or you don't. Most journalists come from other fields and just like to write about them. Japanese: again, you either speak the language or you don't. Unless your job requires historical or literary focus, a degree may be of less importance than personal experience.
However, I feel that the commitment of a college education, as "vanilla" as it is becoming, still holds weight in the world. In weighing a new hire, it would mean something to me that someone had attempted that, or some other comparable life learning experience to broaden their horizons.
Matt, you are the obvious exception to this rule because your wacky childhood contains all the drama of a six-season sitcom, so sit yo ass down.