Two things we often fail to address is what our - or any website's - comments say about the state of our community and what the best comment protocol is for encouraging a productive commenting environment.
Whether they mean to or not, bloggers often write to the people they believe are reading their work. We know that we have "lurkers", as much as I dislike that term, who read blog posts but never comment, but since we know the names, faces, styles and opinions of those from whom we receive feedback, we sometimes focus on them. Thus, the makeup of a blog's commenters makes at least a small difference to its content.
Many websites can make guesses at how their community has changed, but here, we can record it with precise scientific accuracy. Or through a made-up system of points that appeals to geeks. When SEOmoz first calculated Mozpoints in February 2007, the scores were arrived at through participation alone: obviously, no one had ever voted on anyone else's contributions at that stage. This is what our contribution hierarchy looked like on February 10, 2007.
In contrast, here is our ranked users page now. It looks a little bit different. How, as a blogger, should you analyse these changes? Why did users such as simmal_tree (whose user name is now kulpreet_singh) taper off their commenting? Did he - and other previously active users, of which there are many - lose interest in our site? Did they become too busy to participate in online communities? Did they move away from the search industry?
Our community hasn't changed drastically enough for us to really need to take a look at who we've lost or who is less active, but I believe that a system like ours is worthwhile for sites that maintain a large readership. Measuring both contribution and recognition (through votes) allows a website's owners to monitor both changes in a site's demographic, but in contributors' values.
I ask you this: if you've been reading and participating in SEOmoz discussions since, say, early 2007 or before, what do you think has changed here? Do you remember V2 with its brown and orange tones? Do you remember a time before floating comment boxes and user generated content? How is your interaction with SEOmoz different now than it was then?
A secondary concern I have with comments is how best to implement a commenting system. This seems to be less important in the quest to keep readers, but significant nonetheless. I think ours is very good, only we do hear the occasional complaint about our login requirement.
I like a system which has users log in and maintain a profile for the following reasons:
- It promotes slightly more responsibility. A person's comments are archived more accurately and a profile acts as a small portfolio. Users' profiles often rank well in search engines and should give people more reason to be considerate about what they write than if all they're required to do is leave a name and email address. Of course, this often doesn't stop people from making ridiculous comments, but it helps filter out trolls who can't be bothered creating accounts in order to be negative. Sadly, it keeps out positive commenters too.
- It slows down spam. Whilst hardly stopping it, login requirements add one more obstacle for the Furberry and Fauxlex merchants.
- It creates a sense of belonging that makes people return at a higher rate.
There is one situation where I rarely leave a comment - even if the post deserves it - blogs that require me to login before making a comment. Maybe I’m lazy (actually there’s no maybe about it) or maybe there’s something inside me that worries about giving out my personal details - but when I see a comments section that requires registration I almost always (95% or more of the time) leave the blog without leaving the comment that I want to make.The three types of comment systems I see most regularly are those which make someone enter their information every time, those that remember returning visitors, and those which maintain accounts:
Quick 'n dirty commenting: users don't even have to leave a website if they don't want to. This is the easiest and most common system, but is also easily morphed into a certain degree of membership:
I don't have an account at the above site, but it remembers my information from the last time I visited. A small sense of belonging is achieved without making users create accounts or log in. This achieves a balance between membership and ease and should appeal to people like Darren who aren't keen on logging in, as well as people like me, who like to feel... remembered.
If you are logged in here on a regular basis, you'll recognise the final form of commenting. Acknowledging that SEOmoz built its blog from the ground up and didn't use a CMS like Wordpress, it still seems to me that allowing profiles and at least having a membership option, if not requirement, promotes repeat visitors and heightened participation.
Acknowledging that I've covered two different facets of commenting here, I believe that both comment protocol and long term comment activity act as both measurements of a website's success, as well as helping to determine what level of engagement users have with a site's content and with each other.
In addition to wanting to hear from those of you who've been around for a long period about how this site and community has changed, I'd also like to know the opinions of those of you who rarely comment about why you read blog content but don't add your own thoughts. If you have been reading our site for a long time and rarely comment, all the better!
Acknowledging that I've covered two different facets of commenting here, I believe that both comment protocol and long term comment activity act as both measurements of a website's success, as well as helping to determine what level of engagement users have with a site's content and with each other.
In addition to wanting to hear from those of you who've been around for a long period about how this site and community has changed, I'd also like to know the opinions of those of you who rarely comment about why you read blog content but don't add your own thoughts. If you have been reading our site for a long time and rarely comment, all the better!
Hi Jane,
I care a great deal about the issue of community.
I do not see registration as a hurdle you would want to remove.
The recent haiku post alone would illustrate this well, so I will use it as an example.
There are over 100 thumbs down on that post alone, and growing.
I can be real clear about this one , I do not approve of any community that allows negativity to run amuck. I certainly do not approve people thumbing down someones poetry. Everyone should feel welcome in communities I participate in.
To be even clearer...
It is not the SEOmoz I know that would let this happen.
I believe there is a rather simple explanation of what occured with that post.
New members were brought in to comment for the first time. (that is good)
New members were unfamiliar with the SEOmoz community point system. (that is to be expected, they are new)
Rand left vague instructions that did not take into account new members. (this is bad)
I would suggest that if you all are gonna have members vote on something, that clear instructions are given that take into account new poster.
I believe that if a blurb that SEOmoz community is "a positive and welcoming community, and only thumbs ups are considered"was uttered, you would have 100 less thumbs downs occurring in that post.
Something to learn from, and I know you guys and I believe every effort will be made to stay away from allowing negativity.
The overall point of using that post as an example is to highlight that one of the best steps that SEOmoz can take in community building is to consider the new users, and maybe even assume that like 60-70 percent of the readers of every single post are new.
This will accomplish a couple of things, first it achieves the goal of being welcoming and not "insidey". The second thing it accomplishes is that each post is an opportunity to highlight the differences of SEOmoz, things such as negativity are not promoted here, and that new users are welcome and indeed we heart new members, not for dollars but for new oppotunities to hear different views.
We are very fortunate to have such a great group of people that we have not needed to specifically address the issue of negativity, but maybe the time has come.
What has changed?
Very little has changed, and that is why I am here.
If Sphinn bullshit starts up at SEOmoz, I will be gone.
If SEOmoz becomes a popularity contest I will be gone.
This stuff has not occured but you are on the edge of it. You intelligent and creative solutions need to occur now. Thankfully you often ask your community about things, and with this strategy SEOmoz will remain to be what it is, a community that is worth being part of.
If someone has an unpopular view that is stated unhurtfully and intelligently then by golly, I will read it and comment upon it if I am so motivated, but I certainly will not thumbs down it. It is not evil that someones opinion differs from mine, and I will not respond to it negatively.
SEOmoz has been a place where unpopular opinions can be posted, and for all the moaning and groaning of Micheal Martinez, he is one smart cookie, and if he is presenting his opinions unhurtfully, then he provades some valuable opinions. The only times I have thumbs down him or anyone else is when I felt there was hurt going on.
In fact, I am a well known member of your community and a long time participant. I would encourage you SEOmozers to publish my thumbs down numbers over the lifetime of my participation here, you have my clear permission to do so.
I haven't really thumbs downed people, and I think if someone saw my, and other seomozzers, use of the thumb down I think they would see that negativity isn't a big slice of the SEOmoz pie.
Do not think little of the haiku post thumbs down numbers, it is the most telling and important thing I have seen occur to this community in my time here.
Your response to it is equally important. SEOmoz cannot be a place where over a hundred thumbs down occur for poetry, or more precisely, you can be whatever you want to be but I won't be part of you.
Pat, that's a great comment. I'm really glad you said that. Interestingly - and this is completely true - I began writing this post and had most of its ddraft completed before I saw Rand's post and before I knew about the thumbs-down action. Proof of this is that I write my Wednesday posts on Tuesday night and Rand published the haiku post at almost midnight, two hours after my eleve-year-old-approved bedtime :)
Sphinn comments have been appalling of late, and my relationship with a few moderators there confirms that they neither like it nor condone it. They contact people and filter content and they're attempting to bring the conversation back to what it should be. I always want to think of what a first time viewer would think of a comment thread or a post. Say you're brand spankin' new to SEO and you saw "this" (whatever "this" may be). What would you think of our industry and our site?
Some responsible for the thumbs down weren't new members though.
People may say that thumbs don't matter, and empirically, they're not. However, they play a part in the SEOmoz experience and if that experience is negative, people stop returning. We don't want this.
Again, I truly appreciate your honesty and care about this. You speak a lot of sense.
It is weird if it isn't new people, that really surprises me.
I heart you Patrick
Your logic is refreshing
Your wit knows no bounds.
~Sean Maguire, 2008
Pat,
I suppose one could classify me as a "lurker" on this site, as I have yet to dive headfirst into posting my own opinions, views, theories, and lessons learned as a relative newcomer to the SEOmoz (and SEO) community. Still, I read these posts, these comments, and the insightful (sometimes not so insightful) commentary on a daily basis...largely because I am here to learn.
As a newcomer to the site (having worked in SEO for just over two years now), I am still very much in the exploration phase of discovering all that SEOmoz has to offer. keeping up with the volume of information presented here while managing my professional responisbilities is no easy task, but I make the time to read because I value the community and educational elements this site was built on. The haiku post reassured me that I had arrived in the right place, at the right time in my career.
The community element, I believe, is what makes this site so strong. Reinforcing the "positve and welcoming community" elements is an excellent suggestion. While debating on whether or not to seriously get involved here, I find myself remembering the feeling of my first day at a new school in a foreign country after being plucked away from hometown friends here in the U.S. I didn't know anyone (as so many of us can relate) and it was intimidating to voice oneself in a sea of people who all seem to know each other and speak openly in a foreign language. Fortunately, I was welcomed by kids who understood what i was going through, and i wasn't cast aside. I was encouraged to learn and made a part of the community even though my language skills didn't even come close to fluency. I know many kids in similar situations weren't as fortunate.
Moral of the story, I joined SEOmoz because of the community element and i'd be willing to bet there will be one hec of a migration of SEO enthusiasts to this site as the community establishes itself as a "positive and welcoming" educational entity. In the tech world (and in the SEO profession...at least to my experience) excessive critcism and negativity is rampant. I think this site is working to change that. Stay the course! Promoting education and positive community discussion looks like a formula for success to me.
Respectfully.
I think you chose a great community jeepfish. The people behind SEOmoz are great people from their backend people, to their bloggers, and even to the mothers (Gillian is Rand's mother and is an important part of the SEOmoz family, not just for birthing Rand, but for business interactions).
I have every confidence that they will keep it a great place to participate (or lurk).
I know the language thing by the way, and the country thing, so I feel you there.
What countries/laguages have you got? I am always looking for other languages. :)
jane, i'm your target demographic when it comes to a user who's on the site all the time, but comments infrequently.
the unfortunate fact is that contributing to the community through intelligent comments takes time, which is a precious commodity available in very limited quantities.
right now i'm in a big meeting and should be paying attention to ad revenue projections. it's a zero sum game for me - if i spend time commenting, by definition that's time i'm not spending doing other work....
I second that..
I am the third one :)
I have been reading often since January of 07 with a slight hiatus due to a temporary foray to California.
I would participate more often, but unfortunately, I feel I lack the acumen. Much of my professional time is devoted towards content writing, and many things discussed go over my head. I find SEO quite interesting, but it seems it takes devotion to become perspicacious on the topic.
I read here because you offer information for readers of all levels and I believe I have gathered a few things along the way.
I foremost find myself here because I like the personalities of the bloggers and those who participate.
Rand is my age and has my greatest respect for what he has accomplished here; Jane, I enjoy the mixture of wit and insight you and Rebecca compose; Scott often has a germane and amusing remark to make in the posts; and it is always educational (and very entertaining) to read what particpators like feedthebot, Darren Slatten, and Sean Maguire have to say on any given day.
I think you people have an exceptional thing going here. This comes from someone who spent most of his adult life (so far) being behind a book or on a wave. This was my first blog and I believed I paddled into a good one.
Cheers to you, the mozzers, and your community
Ah, the good ol' days when I only had 4 thumbs down...
See you already got 5 thumbs up for this one line comment already. Did I say 5. Oops... Sorry make that 6.
I read your blog for a long while before making an account to comment. Overall, I think your comment system is one of the best I've used.
There were two obstacles which kept me from commenting:
However, since I do now have an account I feel more compelled to comment more frequently. This is because I like the idea that people can recognize me over time, and I think the community leads to people actually reading my comments instead of skipping to the bottom and adding their own. On blogs without accounts, I feel the commenter is solely addressing the poster, but with an account I feel the comments are part of a discussion between members.
The account system also allows incentives for commenting - be it the networking benefits or simply the nofollowed link. It also allows for thumbs-up/down, which encourages future participation because you know someone actually read your comment and found it useful.
Furthermore, although the post contents on this site are great, the comments are very high quality as well and add a lot of benefit, which is rarely the case on semi-anonymous sites. For instance TechCrunch.
From SEOmoz's perspective, its smart because it makes the conversion to a pro membership smoother. I've already got an account, I'm just upgrading it. (BTW - phenominal sales flow).
Edit: Why offer ordered list as an option if you're going to style it like an unordered list?
Really good observations. I know what you mean about it appearing that there are relationships between active members. Certainly, some people have known each other on here or in real life for a long time and it comes across in comments. It's hard not to "sound" like you know someone when you do, but I realise it's also going to seem intimidating to someone who is new or quieter.
The other incentives to participation seem to be pretty good at encouraging discussion, and good discussion at that, as you're always aware that you stand to gain points for a good comment :)
Yes, quality of comments on SEOMoz is really very good. In fact I have rarely seen (if ever) such good comments on any other site.
I have said this quite a few times, you always learn almost as much from SEOmoz commenters as from the original post itself.
I was also one of those readers who were reading this blog for quite some time without commenting on it. And one of the reasons behind this was also the quality of the comments by the other SEOmozzers (What is the official spelling of SEOMozzer? SEOMOzzer or SEOMozer?). The pressure to come up with equally good reply was way to much. The knowledge and shear wit (Patrick, Sean you two are biggest culprits here. And sorry if I sound too familiar. After reading you guys for so long makes it hard not feel the connection.) were overwhelming.
Oh My God! That sounds like total fanboy wuss. Anyway who cares? Love you SEOMoz!
I arrived here over a year ago and this last week was my first comment ever. Why?
When I first starting coming here in July of last year, I signed up using the nickname I had used for years when working in the adult biz. Not long after registering here, I made the moral decision that I was going to go main-stream and didn't want any previous affiliation with the aforementioned industry. This meant making no comments using that nickname in this community.
Even though I wanted to make comments on many posts, I elected not to go through the process of registering again for a few reasons. I didn’t know what direction I was going to go in and I figured I could read from a distance without having to explain who I was or where I was from or where I work. Not to mention, many of the commenters are/were bone fide SEO Pro’s and I felt somewhat little-league and didn’t want to ask stupid questions.
My feelings changed in the last nine or so months when I found that using my experience in marketing content and the knowledge I gathered here was making things happen. As a result of a recent surge in clients, I decided last week that I should show my support to a community that unbeknownst to them has been helping me build a successful business. So this week I finally registered this name, bought a membership and made my first comment.
I’ve been helping people online since 1989 and been involved in Internet Marketing since 1998-ish. This is the first SEO community, blog, forum and/or site that I have bought a membership for.
Based on what I’ve learned here in the last year, and the quality of the community, it’ll be the last.
As a long time reader and participator I have to say that the introduction of YouMoz and the simultaneous end of the outside bloggers was stumbling block for SEOmoz as a whole.
The community went from being technical/pragmatically focused (Ranking Factors, Beginners Guide, & Matt's design posts) to being very social media oriented, both in structure and theme. I think that the sudden narrowing of bloggers and the introduction of anonymous thumbs drastically altered the atmosphere.
The signal to noise ratio increased in the comments and the more interesting articles moved behind the paid wall. Like Paisley points out, discussion is one of the better parts of SEOmoz's potential value. But, the free articles are becoming dated and we no longer have the range ofpoints of view on the industry as fodder for comments (Distilled has helped that though, thanks mates! Or, whatever you guys say).
I like the registration and its effect on people having identities, but I would like to see more people being thoughtful and articulate, as opposed to just loud, and hostile.
We have a great potential that only makes itself really known when we do discuss the topics.
I would like to see more people taking the opportunity to question the statements that are made in blog posts, it gives us a better ability to further the discussions.
Long comment with some interesting points:
1) I don't quite agree that we no longer have outside bloggers: they just have to go through the YOUmoz section now. Eric Enge's posts are always promoted to the main blog without question and Rebecca tells me she has another guest post for the main blog to publish this afternoon. I agree that it would be good to see some of the writers from "the old day" back in action.
2) Interesting articles certainly exist behind PRO and we've been meaning to add some new free content.
3) Matt Inman is indeed a talented writer as well as designer and we miss those posts.
4) I have a fairly high number of people say to me, "oh, you just do social media, right?" or introduce me to others as the social media person, which I actually shy away from as technical SEO interests me more. However, I sometimes have less to say about it or prefer to keep reading as opposed to writing. I do like the social focus of the comments and mozpoints system.
5) As for range of points of view, I contest that we do have YOUmoz, but that this is also a single company's blog and thus, as staff, we've all drunk the SEOmoz Kool Aid to some degree.
6) It would certainly behoove a number of people to think before they add comments, although it seems to be less of a problem here than it is on some other blogs and, especially, forums.
I didn't note it in my long post, but I wanted to agree with Carlos on a couple of points.
He stated that the technical and gekky, or how to posts were important. I agree, and there are less such posts now, and I have pointed out in the past this issue and how your top ten posts from last year were basically all "how to" posts.
I also have some issue with the Eric Enge thing, he is someone I appreciate and respect and look forward to his posts, however, his posts being "promoted" to the front page is a dishonest thing and does not represent what is really going on. If you have formed a relationtional agreement with someone state it.
His posts are not "promoted" they are directly listed on the front page.
It is ass stupid not to state this with such posts.
@ Eric, I heart you, this is nothing on you. It is more a statement of SEOmoz and it's communication with it's users. The auto posting of certain individuals to the front page is what facitates people feeling left out and frustrated and portrays that "you have to be an insider" to be promoted which devalues the entire system/idea of Youmoz
A couple of times I've forgotten, but usually I intro each Eric Enge post with a blurb about how he's a guest blogger for us.
Then why the "promoted" thing? I don't get that.
I'm not in charge of blog posts or where they go, but I assume that's just a bad term... We should call it guest blogging and make it clear that guest blog posts go on the main blog, as opposed to regular YOUmoz submissions.
Again, you highlight a need for clarity in our actions and you're right. 90% of non-staff-generated content that goes to the main blog is "promoted." Other posts are there because of a guest blogging agreement, conference coverage, etc. We'll do well to make this clearer.
Pat - just to be clear. Eric is a guest blogger that we pay. He's merely using the YOUmoz submission system because it's how we get non-admin-created content onto the blog. The same goes for folks like Will & Tom Critchlow, Duncan Morris, Lucas Ng & Mystery Guest.
I'm pretty sure Tom, Will and Duncan can post to the main blog by themselves now, can't they?
Yep - our stuff hits the main blog directly (for better or worse).
IMO, it seems like it would make sense for Eric to get the SEOmoz Associate status that the guys at Distilled have, if he's going to do regular guest posts on the main blog. I'm not sure I'd call the current approach "dishonest", but I'll agree with Pat that it could be more transparent.
It is absolutely and riduculously dishonest to stae that it "was promoted from youmoz". I hate to have this conversation around Eric (someone, in fact one of the few someones I respect so greatly) but either something was promoted or it wasn't.
It is dishonest when when you lie, it is a lie to say that some of the things (not just eric) are "promoted" when they aren't.
It is dishonest, it's like me claiming to be sober, not true.
It's obvious this bothers you, and I'm not looking to argue, but let me rephrase: I don't think it was intentionally dishonest. The easiest way to get an outsider into the main blog, from a technical standpoint, is probably to let them post to YOUmoz and then promote the entry (instead of giving them full access). Giving someone that free pass, though, and then labelling it with "Promoted from YOUmoz" is certainly misleading.
I'd like to add that you're one of the people who keeps me coming back to SEOmoz, because I really appreciate your passion and honesty.
not my "good lookingness"? what about my "good lookedness?"
I feel exactly the same about you. I recognize you as one of the most valuable members for me here.
I quote...
"This post was originally in our YOUmoz section, but was so excellent we promoted it to the blog."
That is a lie, no? It is ontop of every "promoted" blog entry.
I give up, you win: the statement is devoid of truth, which makes it a lie. I also apologize for leaving out your good-lookingness, a shocking and unforgivable oversight ;)
Finally, some sanity exhibited.
Sorry to point the point too much. :)
Yep, this is an oversight from the original purpose of YOUmoz (back in the crazy days of February 2007). I can only assume we didn't have the foresight to recognise that things would be published on the main blog for other reasons than extreme yummy awesomeness ;)
A simple rewording of our automated YOUmoz-to-blog procedure would fix this. Would it be good to eliminate a message like that completely and only add one if it's needed? This would result in a non-staffer or associates' post just appearing on the main blog without a note. This seems okay to me but I'd like to hear what you guys think.
Mr. Pat,
With all due respect "You're Heinous" - I mean - "You're Highness"; on an Eric Enge post dated 3/17/08, in a response to a comment by SEOmoz veteran EGOL, intimating that Rand not let him get away; Rand had this to say.
In my mind that amounts to full disclosure. Therefore, I wouldn't call the default "promoted" statement dishonest, but rather a simple oversite from a crew of people that are so overly burdened trying to keep this community happy.
How did I remember this disclosure? Quite simply actually. I agreed with EGOL's comment, it was St. Patrick's Day and I had a beer in hand and toasted "I'll drink to that!" I would venture to guess that since it was St. Patrick's Day - perhaps that was the reason you didn't recall the comment! ;)
With my utmost respect,
Sean
Another factor I see is in the notification system, if I receive a reply to my comment in the blog it just comes in as one of the 20-60 new comments in that post. If I'm busy, it doesn't get my attention and instead gets: Select All >>> Mark as read >> Done.
Totally agree. There should be way to get an email alert only when somebody has responded to your comment and not when somebody commented to the original post.
perhaps also the time frame -
such as an email saying "in the last 24/48hours x people commented on the post "the window to a websites soul"
and
an option to disable comment alerts after a certain timeframe - eg. i may not want to hear about comments on 6month old blog posts.
Hello Robert,
You wrote,
>>an option to disable comment alerts after a certain timeframe - eg. i may not want to hear about comments on 6month old blog posts.
Well I really don't know if you have noticed this or not. But there is a bit manual way of achieving this. When we get the notification email for a comment there is line in the email which reads,
>>To stop receiving emails when someone replies to this blog post, click here.
But for this you will have to keep at least one such email for that specific post for certain period of time. And when you are done with the post simply click on that link. I know it is bit too much of hassle and an automatic way to do this will be really cool!
Yes I know since way too many comments are posted on SEOMoz (Way to go mozzers!) it really crowds the mail box with comment notification emails (Currently there are 56 in my mailbox and I delete them daily.). To solve this situation I have created a filter which skips inbox for the comment notification email and directly delivers it into SEOMoz folder.
I know probably a lot of people do this. But still I wrote it just in case anybody found it helpful....
There's one other way to unsubscribe. At the bottom of the post, atop the comments, is this box, which has "email me" checked after you comment (or if you wrote it). Uncheck to unsubscribe, or check it on a post you've not commented on in order to keep track of the comments.
Ooh. Forgot to post this as well, but I'd LOVE to see the comment in the email. You know, like the actual text. I don't need for everyday to be Christmas and for boxes and boxes of comment surprises waiting for me under the SEOmoz tree--So-and-so left you a private message... we'll let you know what it is if you run over and open it!--I rather just have it sent in email.
ah yes good idea - like the facebook messages! saves some time - if its a really good comment you come back to moz to read it all - if its a "cool" then you dont have to. Good one!
BINGO!
I think like you.
Hi, I'm Stephen and I'm a chronic lurker.
*group in unison* "Hello, Stephen."
I started lurking SEOmoz posts three years ago when I landed my first SEO position. My main reason for lurking is that I prefer aggregation. Google Reader tells me that I've read 2,285 items in the past 30 days (for an average of 76 posts per day). About once or twice a day, I might click through on a post and comment, but it's the exception to my engagement, not the norm.
Considering I'm not a comment fiend, it shouldn't surprise you that I meet most barriers to commenting as brick walls. I have little enough motivation to share my comments as it is; throw extra steps in front of me and my interest dwindles to nothing. If memory serves, this has been the case several times on SEOmoz.
To be honest, I only commented on this post because I'm already participating in the Haiku contest, so that barrier is nonexistent. Also, I wasn't aware of the MozPoints system until today. It's definitely a great way to promote registration (especially among SEO-minded individuals), but I'd say my prior lack of awareness is evidence that it might not be visible enough to casual readers.
Just my $0.02. I hope this helps.
It definitely helps. I really didn't think of people who read our content through feedreaders as opposed to on-site.
I'm not sure there's a "right" answer. One of the things I like about SEOmoz is that it's almost a hybrid between a blog and a forum. The need to register and the threaded comments create a different style of conversation than blog comments usually do. Whether that's good or bad is debatable, but given how many blogs we have in the SEO community, I think the variety brings something useful to the industry and gives the Moz a different flavor.
i agree with the dr here. the community at seomoz is more social, interactive and talkative.
Not so long ago SEOmoz was very much like the Cheers bar - you could come and go as you pleased and everybody knew your name.
nowadays its very much a 'comment system' and is becoming along the same lines as many social media sites - by that I mean, in order to reap the benefits and get a profile that is powerful you must devote huge amounts of time to participating in the system. I don't mean that in a negative way, I just don't have that time to devote anymore.
I've been a member of SEOmoz for a couple of years now and love it. My Pro membership is the only expense I have refused to cancel (even when I couldnt afford food or petrol).
That being said, over the last year I have participated less in the community and in the comments not only because of lack of time from running a business but also because I have changed and SEOmoz has changed.
I'm a big fan of smaller groups, personal relationships and the feeling that everyone is included. When you get larger groups and the ability to vote up and down then its easier for cliques to either appear or give people the illusion that they have appeared (which has the same effect) and more difficult to get involved/known within a community.
In larger groups where people may be posting just so they can say things that get them voted up it becomes more difficult to cut through all the noise.
I know I have a tendancy to scan through the comments and only read specific member's posts (Pat, Micheal Martinez, The brothers Critchlow, SEOmoz team) and completely ignore others (wont mention names). Its still very time consuming which leaves me less time to post and get involved.
I'm quite happy with my relationship with SEOmoz at the moment it keeps me up to date with the world of SEO and is still the first place I log into when I turn on my machine in the morning
Believe it or not I read more on this sight than any other. I usually have at least one tab on an SEOMoz page all day long so that I can pop over and check what's going on. I have yet to meet any body In Real Life, but because I have read most of the comments posted I feel like I know most of those that regularly remark. I am really excited about things like this blog that bring some of the others out from behind the curtain. I just hope they come back and comment again.
I truly want to hear what they have to say too. Not to take anything away from the blog posts themselves but it is not unusual to gain a little more insight from the comments after.
I really feel lucky to have found SEOMoz. I have many years of business experience trying to reinvent the wheel. It really is powerful to have a great community of knowledge to engage. So often I am just taken for another pretty face. ;)
We really value the comments too. Blog posts are just conversation-starters, really. The process is only complete after people comment. Articles are different, but a blog usually invites interaction.
I usually have a Moz tab open too... without that flower favicon, Firefox isn't quite right ;) Then again, I work here and it might seem weird if I wasn't plugged in to the matrix quite a lot...
*I just tried to post this and it logged me out*
... one more thing,
I think an 'ignore user' button would be very handy.
There are a few people I don't want to have to filter through, and being able to make their comments vanish so I dont have to scroll through them would be handy
I've been here since 11/06 and watched with interest as the community has grown and changed. Originally, I came here to read the SEO Beginner's Guide, and then wanted to use the Page Strength Tool. You had to register to do so, so I created an account, and then when I saw a blog post that I wanted to comment on, I was like, "Well, I already have an account, so why not?"
Having people register to use the free SEO tools is brilliant, and has undoubtedly contributed to the growth of the blog community.
I remember when the new site launched and it was actually really exciting [/total nerd]. The threaded comment system, the ability to add an avatar, the draggable comment box, and the thumbs-up/thumbs-down helped SEOmoz stand out from the extremely saturated SEO-blogosphere.
This is still the main SEO blog that I visit every day and comment on. I do have a few others I read on a regular basis, but none of them have the strength of community this one does.
I love YOUmoz, but then again, for me it's the only way I could contribute to a site like this. I like that YOUmoz has its own community of regular posters/commenters; you really feel like you have actual friends here, and I value so many of the relationships I have built through SEOmoz.
While I understand that commenting takes time (time that could be spent other ways), it's only through commenting that the other members of the SEOmoz community get to know you. What have I gained from that? Well, my friends here have linked to me from their blogs, given me advice and encouragement, and provided me with a safety net of SEO professionals that I can go to with problems or questions. That, to me, is priceless and definitely worth a few minutes a day spent commenting.
I too wonder where some of the one-time regulars went (I believe there was a YOUmoz post about this once). I guess they either lost interest, became upset with SEOmoz for one reason or another (or with another member of the community), or got what they needed and moved on. It would be an interesting survey question.
There have been a few times (even recently) where weeks have gone by without me commenting here. Sometimes I've even thought, "Well, I guess I'm over SEOmoz". Then, I'll happen to read a post that just begs me to comment. In this case, yours, Jane! You just keep pulling me back in :)
I have been not shy in stating I think you are great, Lorisa.
I will be not shy again, you are my favorite member here, I really do like your judgement. I often look forward to what you will say about something. You have this great ability to be very fair, and you have an ability I lack, you are very diplomatic. I am more of a drinker and a farter and wildly and opinionatedly stater of my head.
You in contrast clearly think of many sides when you comment. I appreciate that very much. I haven't ever stated that plainly, so I do so now.
You rock.
My analytical ability has long gotten me in trouble; imagine me in grade school, able to see every teacher's strong and weak points with startling clarity. I grew up thinking there was something wrong with me.
Being here, and being accepted as part of the community, has meant a lot to me. I now see my abilities as assets, not liabilities. It's a good feeling.
Oh, and you're one of my favorites, too!
Good call on the tools - i use the http header checker a lot. Best tool on here!
As Richard says, you make an excellent point about the tools. Your contributions are truly valued, too... it's people like you that we really value: good comments, good content and the ability to stay on-topic (err... that topic being SEO, just in case anyone thought we were talking about anything else...) and the polite way in which you do it.
There was indeed a post. It was by Carlos (inflatemouse; he's commented above) and it is here.
Lurker crew signing in. Just from brief conversations at conferences, I've met quite a few members who are very regular readers here that rarely or never comment. People have different motivations for commenting. Certainly a number of individuals have successfully leveraged the comments here to get noticed and help build a name in the industry. Others may choose to keep their information to themselves, or only comment when they feel they have something particularly relevant or valuable to contribute.
As far as changes go, all sites with an editorial and user component will change over time. The industry has changed a fair amount in 3 years and so has this site. Before V2 was V1, and before that Jon Stewart was answering questions on SEOChat. Now this site has multiple contributors, thousands of members and is a successful industry hub. As the site evolves, people will come and go, but as long as the content quality remains, most will choose to stay and there's no reason it won't continue to grow.
I've been reading this blog for a couple of years now. Over the last few months or even up to a year I know my participation has decreased (not that it was super high in the first place!). I'm not a professional SEO so it could be partially because I've learned all I need to know and threfore the more specific posts are becoming less useful to me. Or it could be like you said that the posts are tailored more to the regular audience, who are professional SEO's.
Anyway, I still enjoy the community here. I like the mozzers and the personality you bring to the community. I think with requiring registration you're getting better quality commenters than you would otherwise. It's just a different approach to blogging - more community building. There's a trade-off there but I think it's worth it.
First!
Damnit! You go away for a week and the comments spiral out of control.
Have things changed? Well, when I first started here, and I've been around a while, I probably wouldn't have bothered to comment if I was on holiday. Now I find myself doing it whilst sat outside a bar in Ibiza Town: make of that what you will.
You'll have to wait till I get home for more insightfull commentary. In the meantime I need to order another vodka tonic and work out what the hell that song that I've been hearing all week is before it drives me mad.
Cheers
I registered on May here, but reading the site a few monthes before. When I felt that I must comment I registered. Your commenting system one of the best that i have seen on the Net. Your system have minuses and pluses.
Pluses are:
- Site generally has great usebility and it is very userfriendly. Everything is very clear. Most stupid, even my granddad can handle SEOmoz :) . And I hate non user friendly sites and cant work there.
- Dont think about registration. You have great registration form and cookie system that everyone will like it. It isnt pain like others.
- Your blog has best practices on copy writing. It seems that you have a reasearch on this, your articles have best font sizes and font selection for human eye.
- Best difference in your commenting system is thumps . It take members commenting.
- I like this draggable commenting box :)
Minuses are:
- Font size here in commenting box is very small. It annoys my eyes really.
- Loading of comment system is very slow. Actually I am now on dial-up connection for today, and it takes really few time to wait loading of comments. Thinking about being a global community?!
- Sending report about replies on the blog post to mail. If member is subscribed to it then it will receive tons of replies everyday if he had a single "nice article" message on any blog post if he selected on his settings page "yes, i want to receive a mail when someone answers my comment" huh. It will be best when system will notify the user when someone answers only to his comments.
I think that is all. Just thanks for this great site ;)
I'll second the intimidation factor mentioned earlier that's due to the perception of a close-knit community. Also, as a brand new lurker and a newbie at SEO, I don't feel I have enough information yet to contribute to the conversations. Add to that the reality that I'm a software developer and am all too accustomed to the RTFM attitude that's pervasive in the coding world, so I'm especially careful not to comment anywhere unless I've done thorough research first. Usually the research results in answering my own question, and so the comment never gets posted. I think that's probably not the best outcome in a lot of cases because other newbies could benefit from my beginner questions, too, but there you have it - I'm conditioned to shy away from posting and always Google instead. For the record, I created an account on the day I discovered this site, but not for the blog. I didn't even know the blog existed at that point - I just wanted access to the free tools, but was delighted to find the blog later - invaluable stuff!
Two Words
"Comment Tracker"
I would probably participate more but by the time I read a blog entry there are so many long worded responses it would take me 2 hours just to read a blog.
When I do post comments, they mostly get lost in the shuffle and I forget where I posted them so if some one responds to me I never read it.
Give us some sort of comment tracking and then see if it speeds things up.
The blogs are the only form of real time interaction between the members. No comment tracking is like how facebook changed the "online" friends crap. I know lots of people using facebook less and less because they aren't as aware of their friends activities as they once were.
I have known SEOmoz as a company for may be more than two years. Interestingly, I know SEOmoz as a blog and a community for may be a year. There is a reason behind that gap. When I first heard of SEOmoz, I wanted to get the company’s help in stirring up SEO campaign for the company I work for. Then I learned, SEOmoz as a company is no longer accepting any clients. I got direct response from Rand, I believe he was in China, that SEOmoz will be starting Premium Membership in few months. Not accepting client and premier membership, kind of puzzled me, and I resorted strictly to Google’s forum and blogs. Going through Matt Cutts blog, one day I stumbled upon SEOmoz site again, and that’s when I found out about the blog/community. I must admit without a shame that I am primarily a lurker or a stalker since then. I still do not have premier membership. I regularly visit your public blog, and Youmoz. I have only recently started commenting. I am pretty much satisfied with these two info-outlets. My initial grudge against the SEOmoz company for not taking my project, is no more. I have done pretty good with information I had and some best advise I have read through this and many other blogs.
When you do search for SEO in google, SEOmoz comes in 11th or 10th position, but that is not a success meter, a good quality content is!
Thank you for your comment. We all really appreciate the "lurkers" (um, can I rename you guys silent participants? I wish I'd not used that word!). We know you're there and we really appreciate that you keep coming back, despite not getting into the commenting. This is almost more of a compliment to us, as it tells us that you value our content on its own, without any social perks!
What I like the most about the site is the comments popup that is in a draggable window and you don't leave the page just because you're commenting. It makes it easier to look through all of the comments and then make your comment.
To my knowledge I haven't seen this feature used on any other websites that I visit.
I agree - sometimes when I'm writing a comment, I want to reference something in the post. It's great to be able to scroll up (or down) without leaving the comment box.
I've not seen this elsewhere either... it was certainly a neat thing for Matt Inman to include.
I'm an In-House SEO and the last time I checked they didn't accept MozPoints at McDonalds so I could really care less about them.
Now if I had my own SEO company or brand I was trying to promote I might be more pro-active in trying to maintain a high positive to negative ratio.
Edit to add -
So even though I don't really care about my own points, I do use the thumb counts to scan through the comments looking for "gold".
Re: thumbs down being used randomly and for no good reason
This is why I prefer systems such as yelp's (and/or will be implementing a similar system on my own site, rather than the usual "yes/no").
Instead of allowing people to vote "no" (which often is a result of bias or no other good reason), there are a few buttons you can choose from, all of which are positive. Reviews can be marked funny, helpful, and I forget the other one. For the "no" functionality, there's a report button that you can click.
It's a lot easier to be negative for no reason when you just have to click a hand icon - it promotes a higher level of responsibility for the user to have to click a button and fill in a reason for the report. Often times people who flame randomly don't want to take the time to fill out a legitimate report because their reason is BS in the first place.
Just my random 2 cents. Maybe seomoz could move to a "i found this helpful" button (no thumbs down option) with the report functionality listed separately.
Commenting here on seomoz has always been like a baseball swing. You try to hit it out of the park but you have so many seomozers to catch it. And when you are in good form, any thing you drop in is a thumbs up....
Like any one here, these small thumbs have taught me so much about SEO and the community. Thanks a lot...
wow...I was at the #25 spot in 2007 and am nowhere to be seen!
I do lurk sometimes but I got so busy that I just slowed down. I can tell you that questions like your's are the same type we ask at Cre8asiteforums on a regular basis. We keep asking ourselves how to improve, what members want, etc.
There's more and more places to get information and only so many hours in a day. Changes in traffic to communities can be humbling.
Really nicely written Jane!
Think i've been around a couple of years now, I have 11 youmoz posts and I've got a few points. That said, of late I have been commenting far less. For me it's a couple of reasons:
1) I have started my own blog and that's taking up a lot of time. To be fair, I owe the Mozplex a post in thanks for the links, support and nice emails from rebecca. Where's my hoody :-(
2) My full time job is far busier these days - i have a lot more, larger websites to look after - as someone's said already, time is money.
3) I'm a more technical and analytical / experimental SEO than social media / beginner SEO / fundamentals type. The blog covers the entire spectrum of seo community subjects very well, but this makes me less inclined to comment. Er, did that make any sense?
4) I still can't close this stupid window so how the heck am i going to post a comment? Damn you, Rick Astley!
I'm checking on the hoodie. Sorry!
Thankyou!! You're a legend
I am so not clicking on that link.
Okay....so I'll admit to it if no one else will. I clicked it. I consequently laughed my arse off while I chased my minimized window around my screenn. Nice! And it was only then I saw the flashing tab...took me nearly 5 minutes to get that one to close.
Fabulous. I'm forwarding that to all my friends. muahahahaha!
Tom Critchlow sent something similar to me when I had a VERY LONG Q&A thread open. I'd imparted SEO knowledge on a level never before seen. I'd basically unearthed the most important parts of the Google algorithm and I crashed my Firefox, thus losing my answer.
Tom will never - ever - be forgiven.
Definitely got me too, but I guess that’s the point, now I know!
Didn't you then re-start firefox and click restore session? I know that was you, ciaran or stephen. Made me laugh anyway :-)
I think it was Pete!
Yeah, that was me. That was the day Tom became my least favorite Critchlow ;)
Glad to be of service :-)
I think I got that one too. Thanks ;)
I tend to dislike registering for sites to participate. I take high exception to places like Yahoo or Forums that make you login to do simple stuff like read post.
I participate here primarily because I am in the industry but along with that you have GREAT content. The Moz points are cool but they really don't determin my level of participation. I heard after so many points something special happens but even that doesn't matter nor make me participate more then I otherwise would.
I guess the bottomline for me is CONTENT.
Good lively debate is why I have started to participate in this great community. However I would like to suggest on addition to the way we comment and 'thumbs up'. I would like the posts with the most thumbs up to go to the top and the ones with the least to go to the bottom. A bit like yahoo answers but without the best answer.
Why? Not all posts are created equally and although comments are great, they are not created equally either.
The issue is comments take the form of threads and I guess this means a thread is promoted or demoted, therefore it's the sum of the threads thumbs up.
The other usability point would be to allow people to select the sort order: Most Popular | Most Recent
Hi!I'm one of the people that often (almost daily)reads the blog but only have commented a couple times.
I can explain my behavior in a very simple manner: I'm trying to learn about this business and avoiding to get ins discussions in which I wouldn't have a valuable contribute to give.
Sometimes it's hard to follow the discussions because I'm in a different time zone and when read the blog there are already lots of comments :P
Jane, I'll try to comment more often ;)
Best regards from this side of the atlantic,AMMOloyal reader :)
Of the places I read, only Matt Cutts, Slashdot and Fark get more comments per thread than here.
The latter two get only occasional visits from me as they are *too* time consuming, and not SEO-related in any way.
On a popular story, sometimes The Register can attract a *lot* of comments, but of course that's a general IT site, not SEO related.
wow, great topic. Made me rethink my participation.
I've been in the seo world for, heck, I don't know...7 or 8 years now. I too often have a hard time identifying myself with some of the seo's on the boards. My techniques and priorities might be a bit different and I have more and more concerned myself with analytics and conversion. I too am not spending huge amount of time on link acquisition but I am always very interested in the latest trends in the industry of course
Over the last years the sheer amount of daily information in the industry has increased so much that I had to prioritize what sites I visit, newsletters I read, what blogs I follow. But as others have pointed out: reading articles and scanning articles and headlines for articles of interest is one thing. Stopping, thinking and responding is another.
But then without someone stopping, thinking and responding it wouldn't be the site it is now so I guess we ought to stop and contribute at least occasionally on subjects that are important to us or when we feel we can contribute to make the site what it is.
I prefer your typeof comment window. I have been reading your blogs for several weeks and I am learning helpful things. I began researching to help me optimize my small business website. It's working but slowly. All of the bloggers that give freely of their knowledge are appreciated.
the biggest difference on this site between today and a year ago is the amount of randfish content on the blog. sad but true, less rand = less me.
https://www.seomoz.org/blog?page=37
A very good point that the commentry does tell you more about the community than the posts themselves. Moz is still my favourite community - its easy to use, not too cluttered (SEW) and friendly (Sphinn) - with the Q&A and comments i never feel too intimidated to ask a dumb question (in reality there are few dumb questions anyone can ever ask). Sphinn and such seem to get quite personal, and i'm the type who'd rather get to know a community and commit to it than jump all over the place!
In terms of how the community works? perhaps there is more guidance needed on joining, whilst i love the youmoz posts that get promoted to main blog I generally dont have the time to read them in youmoz itself, and my intention to write there is tempered by not wanting to blog something stupid! (or something that everyone else realised about 6 months ago!)
As to the shift in focus on articles - i think its been quite natural as more and more were asked to look at all aspects of online marketing - and i welcome the more tech posts, but perhaps we could look at a guest post from someone in email marketing as I think this is an area shunned by the community (not sure if shunned is the right word but i think some highlighting of benefits there would be of use as I dont think much has been written here on that)
Anyway. I'm happy to be a member of a community here that is friendly and knowledgeable - even if sometimes they do refer to personal jokes i've no idea about!
Very interested to see what the longer term community members have to say about this post. Needless to say, I find the whole commenting structure here interesting and dynamic.
One of the most compelling things I observed in comparing the archive to the current is Michael Martinez' stats.
Archive: 664 thumbs up, 13 thumbs down, Net total Moz Pts 651
Current: 994 thumbs up, 335 thumbs down, Net total Moz Pts 659
This statistic begs the question:
Exactly when did Darth Vader get hold of Michael Martinez, and was there a specific issue that drove him to the dark side? (at least in the eyes of some community members)
Sean, I wish you'd stop singling out Michael Martinez in your comments. I regularly read both this blog and SEO Theory and find that both offer solid content and intelligent points of view. Clearly they're often different points of view, but that's the great thing about this industry. Perhaps if people didn't offer others up as "comment victims," some thumbs down numbers wouldn't be so high...and perhaps those that haven't found their voices yet on this blog would be more willing to particiate.
Lotus21
First off - I'll comment about whomever and whatever I want to. So please don't suggest I should do otherwise. I don't tell you or anyone else what or whom they should or shouldn't talk about. I simply comment.
Secondly, in the 1,050 comments I've left on this blog since I've started, I don't recall having referred to Michael Martinez more than twice. They just both happened to occur in the past week.
Thirdly, with regard to this post, I wasn't singling out Michael Martinez in a negative way. The Darth Vader reference was meant to be humorous. You'll note that I said ...in the eyes of some community members. I'm not one of them. Michael pretty much stopped commenting here before I joined the community, so all those thumbs down came from others. As for my use of thumbs down - it's minimal.
I simply happened to find the numbers to be rather surprising and was curious as to whether the inordinate amount of thumbs down Michael received in the "2nd half" versus the "1st half" were reflective of a change in his tone and commenting style or simply how the community reacted to his comments. That could be considered - on topic with this post.
Despite a difference of opinion I had with Michael on a previous post, I also read his blog and happen to be a fan. He knows a helluva lot more about SEO than I do and I stated my respect for his knowledge to him directly and publicly.
Finally, I have only been participating on this blog since November of last year and I think I'm safe in saying that I've been one of the most consistently positive, supportive and light-hearted commenters here - both on the blog and behind the scenes in PM's - with veterans and new visitors alike.
I try to provide insight where I can, help when it's requested and levity to lighten the days of both myself and others.
As for thumbs down - I'm no stranger. I have 183 thus far, including 8 today - 1 for my first comment on this thread and 7 on a three line poem from earlier today.
So, if people are not commenting because they are afraid of a thumbs down - that's their problem not mine.
I'm posting this below Sean so he will read it..
I'm not sure when i signed up for SEOMoz but the reason i did is because it's mostly made up of adults. or people with somewhat open minds, occasionally i do see the random arse, but for some that random arse was me.. when i first posted.. I recently saw Sean post something about "is the best seo forum in the world" or something like that.. note this is not a personal attack on Sean, i actually respect him for standing his ground sometimes but that is what makes people think, invent, re-invent, re-engineer and try again..
SEOMoz makes me think.. sorry, i'm ADD, AHAD and AHKD if you didn't know.. but Sean.. that forum is the one SEO forum i stupidly posted to a long time ago.. and after that i decided forums sucked and all SEOs were close minded arseholes, except myself of course.. lol.. i'm not going to name names out of respect for SEOMOz.. (unless someone wants the linkbait..)
but i posted a scientifically based post on another forum years ago.. and some hagfish (the forum admin), didn't agree with it because it fell outside her knowledge scope.. as usual.. whereas, the community of SEOMoz is thinkers, logical, adult thinkers.. and when you have someone like Darren who gives rand crap.. Rand takes it with a smile.. then again.. Darren is probably not being malicious.. and of course Rand fires back.. but at the end of they day.. my mind and i am sure other's minds, are richer for it.
do I think like every other SEO in the world.. nope.. but i bet there are a few who have done SEO for years without buying or link trading.. liek me, it's just not part of my strategy.. never has been, but i can still provide stable, consistent, first page rankings over time for my clients without the links.
also on comments... you would be amazed that 10 out of the i dunno.. 50 blog postings/news articles i have read today, failed allow comments based on some type of glitch in their comment system.
happy to hear that I am not the only one out there that doesn't prioritize on links and still has success and ranks well.
can we start a support group? :-)
To be fair Sean, in the archive version, even Rand had only 5 thumbs down, as opposed to now - 360 thumbs down.
I would think that just comes with the growing membership.
Burgo,
What is this bit about being fair or not? I was simply making an observation. The numbers you point to for Rand are irrelevant to my comment.
Rand now has 10,500 thumbs up to go with those thumbs down. Almost 5 times as many as the first set of numbers. Michael on the other hand has a net gain of 8 Mozpoints in the second numbers versus the first - for all of his efforts. That was my only point.
I wasn't judging Michael. I was making an observation and wondering whether his comment style or the changes in the community had to do with it. That's all.
One thing that may have influenced the lack of new up-thumbs is that Michael retired from blogging here in September 2006... Obviously, I've not gone through and worked out how many points he's accumulated since then though :)
Good post from Michael at seo-theory about why he no longer blogs here: important read if you're interested in some of the site's contribution history and the reasons behind that particular change.
Sorry Sean, perhaps "fair" was the wrong term for me to use there. What I meant was simply to point out that those massive thumbs-down jumps didn't simply affect MM, but most commenters. So, from my point of view, I suppose my mention there of these numbers was relevant to simply add context to your question.
I wasn't specifically referring to you "judging Michael", just making my own observation (as you made yours) that this was a widespread occurence and shouldn't be looked on as something that would indicate any kind of "Darth Vader" like changes in anyone. :)