I just walked away from a lot of money.
After two months of research, proposals, and negotiations I turned down a deal that would have brought my freelance income to a new level. But I would have been miserable.
My prospective client had no shortage of funds. There was nothing shady about their business. I just didn't want to deal with them.
I used to say "yes" to everything. I took on any client that would sign on the dotted line. In my zealousness to build a business, I neglected to find the "right" clients and settled for anyone who would cut a check. This led to sleepless nights, wasted time, and poor results. In my opinion, a successful business deal isn't just getting paid. Success is when both parties (client and consultant) can agree on realistic goals; once those goals are met, both are satisfied with the results.
You are the professional. You know what will work and what won't work. If you give the client whatever they ask for, it's not going to help their business in the end. Learn how to balance input from the client about their industry and business goals with a reasonable plan of action that you produce.
Value your time...and the client's. In my recent experience, I made the mistake of conducting keyword research and competitive analysis for free. I did this as an act of good faith, since there was a lot of business on the table. But without any skin in the game, the prospective client was indecisive and nit-picky over just about everything.
TAKEAWAY: If you are in negotiations and want to sweeten the deal, charge for your research upfront. If the client signs, then you can credit a percentage of that fee towards the first month of their bill. Treat it like a deposit. Essentially, my prospective client wanted me to act as an SEO machine, where he remained firmly at the controls. He wanted a puppet that he could manipulate based on tips he's read online (but never actually implemented). Not a road I wanted to take. In spite of this lost opportunity (or avoided disaster depending on how you see it), I have come away with a short list of red flags, which I'm hoping will protect you from getting involved with clients who will waste your time and energy. Seriously, sometimes the paycheck really isn't worth the blood, sweat and tears you will invest.
5 Warning Signs of a Bad SEO Client:
- They name-drop books, blogs, and other SEO-related materials in nearly every conversation.
- They insist on web design gimmicks that detract from the user experience.
- They demand results on an unrealistic time table.
- They protest your rates on the basis that there are, "tons of SEO software options available on ClickBank for $97".
- They ask for keyword research and then override your findings with their "sense" of what their firm should rank for.
Looking forward to hearing your additions to this list!
p.s. from Rand: This post got a lot of positive reactions, and has some great comments, too, so we're sending it to the main blog. I can empathize here myself, having run a barely-scraping-by consulting business for the first 6 years of my career (1999-2005).
You raise an excellent point. Proper SEO work is a long-term commitment for both parties involved. It's important to be sharp and pay attention during those initial meetings. to see if your relationship will develop or end up in divorce court ;)
If you hearing a lot of low-balling, it may be time to look at clients who do have a bit of a budget; and those who also have an understanding the ups and downs of the business. Keep their best interests in mind, it's a partnership after all.
Disrespect should never be tolerated from a client, assuming of course you are doing your part to deliver. If they threaten with better findings elsewhere, wish them well and move on to your next success story!
Well put :) SEO consulting is kind of like a marriage: for a positive outcome, it requires good communication upfront, long-term commitment, and hard work. Anything less is destined for divorce court!
Well said my friend!
Indeed, well said. Congratulations on walking away Josh!
I believe these situations are actually leathul to an SEO business/ consultant. If you're not happy, like you said, your not going to do your best. And if you aren't doing your best, your reputation, not just the project results, will suffer.
You're like a crybaby. It's the same with any marriage, strong character man manage his woman even without money. Poor character man only cries and listens his wife.
Be a man. Do your own business and rules.
Yes, but usually that "strong" man that manages and "rules" his wife finds that she has been cheating on him for years and ends up leaving him.
Successfully leading/managing/communicating is much different then "ruling". Ruling shows fear of not being able to have the "strength" to manage the situation successfully.
Good Luck with that ;)
And neither this "strong character" man nor "his" woman are truly happy in the long run. While their marriage may work in the sense that it does not immediately fall apart, it does not work nearly as well as it could or should because he must spend too much time managing and trying to control his partner rather than doing what he does best and letting her do what she does best. Eventually neither is satisfied with the results and both are to blame. (cross-posting to Dr Phil)
Maybe your analogy is off. There is some truth to the idea that you need to be very firm with some clients - the ones who ask for your advice or help and then argue with you about each detail. I have found that being politely cranky can work well, but it is still time consuming to have to re-explain things repeatedly. I did tell client to quit talking at me and get back in the kitchen once. But he was a chef so it was appropriate.
Just printed that comment to hang it on my desk!
Your blog post was right to the point. Making more money means being more productive and avoiding having people demand you do extra work for free. Letting some deals fall through the cracks is one of the keys to successful sales, and protecting your reputation and brand identity.
I should add that there is also a danger to having just one or two big clients. Some business people want to isolate you and make you dependent on them so they can control you.
Jon Blue Search Marketing
Yes we've also found when working on consulting projects to be VERY careful of who their web developer is and how your relationship will be with him.
Some warning signs:
- Doesn't like how the SEO suggestions change his "design" (like if its all image based, no text anywhere).
- Doesn't know his ass from his head when it comes to clean coding practices; loves using tables and depreciated html, etc.
- Takes days or weeks to respond to simple fixes. Then the owner gets mad at rankings not moving up.
- Is the middle man for communication between you and the bosses (This is always a HUGE red flag).
Another warning sign where the web designer is concerned: he/she is related to the client somehow. It always seems to end up that the client takes your suggestions as an attack on their family honor or somesuch. It makes them more emotionally attached to the design, makes it harder to pry away from them when it's bad.
Pretty much sumed up what I was thinking.
Some SEO clients are like those patients who go to the doctor and argue with him or her, based on things they've looked up on Wikipedia. They read one article about SEO, learn a few terms and suddenly think they can tell you how to do your job for them!
ha! What a great analogy. You're right--doctors must rue the day Wikipedia and WebMD got into the hands of their patients! Unfortunately, it's not just the prospective clients who read a few SEO articles and think they're experts--the same thing happens with many SEO "gurus" :)
I really have to disagree on this whole blogpost.
Kentaro made a great analogy about patients who visit there doctors thinking they know everything after looking up some Wiki articles. Now let's continue right where Kentaro stopped. Now does the doctor think that these patients are 'bad' patients and just sends them away, just because they think they know more? The doctor understand the fact that their patients are looking for help, regardless of how many articles they've read. The doctor understands that some people may be slightly arrogant and / or ignorant and may think that they know more than him. But the fact that they came to him to seek help is what triggers him to endure their silly Wiki arguments and have patience with their ignorance. So what the doctor does, is making them understand that their story is partially true and that they did a great job by researching and reading about it, and continues to explain the situation in-depth and that what the patient just said isn't 100% true and why it is urgent that the patient should listen to him. First stroke, then strike.
The same thing goes for the clients. Rather then seeing them as 'bad' clients, you should see them as SEO-ignorant clients. The fact that they are asking you for help and are willing to give you a big portion of their marketing budget shows that they really are looking for help. They know that you are the professional, regardless wether they may come across as wanting to take over your role. You should make it clear that you are the professional here, and you should teach and show that if they do it the way they want it to be that the whole project will turn out to be a big mess.
Hi Samerhadi--thanks for the different angle. I certainly agree that it is a good thing for a client to do their own research ahead of time. Afterall, there was some level of research involved with them making the call to an SEO consultant in the first place!
The doctor analogy continues below with @seanmccauley's comment. Of course no doctor could be dissapointed with their patient's enthusiasm to be more informed. In fact, any good doctor will give that patient even more resources to learn. Long-term results in a patient or SEO client can only be achieved after they have been educated properly. We should be the #1 proponent for client education!
The problems arise when a patient (or client) outright rejects the professional recommendations of the doctor (or consultant), yet still demands results. That was my intended focus of the article.
Bad SEO clients aren't the ones who educate themselves, they are the ones who refuse to implement your recommendations, but still hold you accountable for results.
LOL, I am the guy that goes to the doctor with hours/days of research :)
Regarding the Dr. analogy: I get the gist of it but choosing not to assist someone seeking your help with a health issue (after taking a professional oath) - because they are difficult - is it's own dilemma.
In the case of managing your own SEO (or any business) clients: the bottom line is that difficult or overly-time consuming clients are unappealing because they are difficult and time consuming - the root cause may be many things - they don't understand SEO and challenge your approach, or are disorganized, or have ego issues, or don't pay promptly.
Judge client fit by (having and) staying true to your business goals. Are you hell-bent on evangelizing proper SEO and educating those ignorant of such? Then take on the challenge of "turning" a client that's stubbornly clinging to the belief that certain tactics work (or looking for the next hot SEO shortcut).
Are you trying to maximize profit? Maximize revenue? Maximize fun with your work? Achieve work-life balance? If the client is a simply poor fit with what you want to accomplish (for whatever reason) then part ways.
I totally agree with you, they read of heard something and they think they can do better than you but the problem is that they only read a few ligns of an article... And after to change their mind, it's really difficult...
As a freelancer, you have the freedom to make these decisions and as an entrepreneur I can tell you NOTHING is more important than maintaining that quality of life. Being able to say no to money to save your sanity is something I will forever be thankful for. One of the reasons I started my company was because I got tired of saying yes to situations I knew would end badly. Granted, it took a while to reach the point where we could be picky about clients, but once you're there it's a beautiful thing. LOVE this post and it definitely hits the nail on the head.
Right on! Some of the best business advice I've heard: "don't become a slave to your venture--let it work for you". Too many people are enslaved by their business because of poor planning, lack of delegation, or in the case above, the wrong clients.
Wishing you success as you move ahead with your venture!
One of my warning signs (for any web client, be it design, development or SEO)...
An @AOL.com email address
runaway runaway runaway
ha! love it. I can hear the dull roar of a dial-up 28.8k modem right now...
I'll take that client if you don't want them :)
Another common request / demand from prospective clients would be
* Wanting to rank high for any random reason (just wants traffic) but doesn't want to write/create any/extra content - even if they have a 2 or 3 page website and very little/no referral links or traffic.
* No firm business target in mind - but they want to be bigger!
In my experience, the day you realize you can walk away from a client is a good day.
Agreed.
Hi Josh, I'm really glad you wrote this post. I really believe that when you're providing a service, whatever industry you're in (waiting in a restaurant is a great example where this is often not appreciated), you serve the client but you're not a servant to the client (inspired by one of my favourite films, Life is Beautiful). It's a two-way relationship where both parties benefit. It's a shame that mostly SEOs will have the benefit of this post and not clients but at least it will encourage SEOs to walk away from deals that are simply not worth it.
"you serve the client but you're not a servant to the client"
Perfect way to sum it up :) Realistically, in order to better serve the client, it's crucial that you are not their servant.
It is important to keep in mind that YOU are the expert when it comes to SEO. If the client knew everything they needed to know, they wouldn't be coming to you. I certainly don't take my car to a mechanic and tell him how to fix it.
I would definitely not work with any client who recommended I look into ClickBank products for direction...haha.
I totally agree, but sometimes, clients think they know everything - which can be equally frustrating! :)
I'm working with a client who, though he does understand the commitment of SEO, he's starting to get frustrated with his poor rankings. In our last big meeting, he hinted that he's at the point where he doesn't care about what methods I use, just as long as he, spoiler alert, "Gets to #1 as fast as possible."
Of course, I had to explain to him that I never, under any circumstances use manipulative or "black hat" tactics. I'm not sure he got the message.
Great point. I've had this happen too.
Unfortenately, they (clients) just don't understand the realistic timelines and budgets required to work on a project and times to get results - and as well - that things don't happen overnight.. (and to top it all off, results vary, and or, once acheived need maintenance to stay alive!) Been there.. :|
I always wonder why people will never argue with their dentist, surgeon or even tailor, but will hire a SEO or a web designer just to tell him or her that they know all about SEO anyway.
I am happy to have clients able to talk shop, but really, sometimes it's too much. Being selective with clients and projects is a reason of why you went freelancer, don't forget that!
Money isn't going to pay for you wanting to strangle somebody every time they call you on the phone. When they do it at midnight, for example. On a Saturday.
I think SEO done properly should be like legal services. There is no magic knowledge a lawyer has access to that you don't. The laws are available to be looked up and read by anyone. You hire a lawyer becuase he does this every day.
I've never seen a lawyer that is afraid to explain the law to his clients. If the client walks in thinking they know the law, he'll explain whether it actually works this way or not.
I explain to people that I use the SEOmoz tools. Could they do this themselves? Sure. I could buy Westlaw or LexisNexis access but I wouldn't.
I agree with your analogy, unfortunately the legal profession has regulation (sort of :)) and a system to apply credentials. At least minimum credentials that every lawyer must qualify for in order to practice law (at least in the US).
However there is no barrier to entry for an SEO. Anyone can call themselves an SEO professional and begin charging for their services.
Several years ago, I used to keep my tools a secret but now the SEO industry has evolved to a point where, as you state, anyone can get the tools. I tell my clients what I use if they are interested. If they choose to use the tools themselves, and be effective with it, then they are most likely not going to be a good client for me and may be better suited as a strategic partner or a contractor or employee.
I will post back here when this situation arises (don't hold your breath).
One more simple thing to add here (or may be summarize our thoughts) is
"THEY DONT LISTEN WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT THIS AND HOW IMPORTANT THAT!"
and there's your list:
they dont want to blog,
they want flashy websites that sacrifice page load speed,
they always say that they are not techincal and dont want to listen on technical SEO stuffs
Your 350$ SEO Package is not worth it...look at this, look at that...
and you are like
"Do you understand the words that coming out of my mouth?!?...(Chris Tucker)"
BTW, I did pull the plug on them(clients). Went out of the door smiling with no regrets!
at least I did not pick another stone to strike my own head, LOL
A great perspective on Agency/Client relations. I particularly like the suggestion of charging up-front for research/initial work.
Kitchen Designers, for example, the really good ones anyway, tend to charge a small reasonable fee up-front for their design services and credit it back against a confirmed order, incase the prospect takes the labour-intensive designs elsewhere for a cheaper deal. Not necessarily better, just cheaper.
The same can work for SEO; charge a small reasonable fee upfront for research/audits/initial thoughts & suggestions, then credit it back to the client once they have signed-up. Simple yet so often overlooked.
Good posting :-)
Agree 100% - depends on how deep you delve in with the initial work though.
A few years back I started to explain to troublesome clients that "You pay me to tell you what's wrong, NOT what's right about your site. Then you pay me to fix it." Amazing how well this gets projects off on the right foot. I'm doing what the client is paying me to do and s/he gets it from the initial discovery phone call.
"It ain't personal, client. It's why you're paying me $5.63 an hour!"
Excellent thread. Seems like we all have our own real-world experiences worth mentioning.
Thanks, again, for a great post and a hot button discussion starter.
Paul
6. They want you to promote viagra/casino/marijuana/dating websites.
7. They delay payments for more than one week, under various reasons.
8. They say that they pay for the results, not for the work.
Not sure I agree with number 6. viagra/casino/marijuana/dating websites
Those website need to be optimized as well. This is a matter of taste, when it comes to business those websites bring money, so don't see why a client who wants to promote those website needs to be bad?
Agreed if the money is there...
Excellent topic from which much can be learned. It's like a saying that I heard from a fellow colleague "the best deal I ever did, was a deal I didn't do." I wish you continued success, and I thank you for sharing.
"the best deal I ever did, was a deal I didn't do."
Great quote! One-liners like that stay with you for life--thanks for sharing it.
I totally agree. I've learned the hard way that a potential client might not be a good fit. Bottom line, it should be about success of both you and the client. If there are doubts that you can't get past, the best thing you can do is bow out and move on. Great post.
Walking away from a time suck client or a client who defends everything s/he's done is the best feeling in the world. You may not have the dough but you also don't have the headaches. Great piece.
Thanks for saying what we all know is true. A thumbs up.
Paul
Talking about unrealistic demands...
Below is a first email of a recent enquire:
"i own a succsful website.
i know a lot about SEO myself, and have a team of link builders that do SEO for me, so i DONT need any package from you, but what i do need, is someone to point me to the right direction in term of the way i do link building. give me a detailed plan to make it really efficient. again i DONT want ant seo package from you, but if you can offer coaching/consultant , i'll be ready to pay for it.
i need my site to get from 30k a month to 100k a month."
Really, yeah sure we get on it right away :) 30K a month and you can't bother to spell.
Walked away on the third email and delaied some grey hair.
Pedro - I agree the communication style of the prospect does seem a little "sketchy". Obviously you had a few additional exchanges with them, but why not offer them a monthly coaching/consulting contract with no accountability for results? To me it sounds like the person is looking for someone to manage his team of "low cost" linkbuilders.
That's exactly what I did, but by the third email it was obvious it would be really nightmarish. Way below my common sense and courtesy threshold and no amount of money makes me go under it.
Not to mention wanting to triple a site's revenue with link building alone, or viewing link building separately from all the other pieces in the puzzle.
I just gave this article the first Facebook Like. Strange, isn't it?
Great post and undoubtedly every SEO has experienced similar situations. But one concern I have is your final 'red flag'
"They ask for keyword research and then override your findings with their "sense" of what their firm should rank for."
This is kind of the opposite from my perspective. As an SEO I would be kidding myself if I thought I knew what keywords are most appropriate for any given business. Some services/products (keywords) would have been successful for years, while others are more speculative. And some services/products (keywords) have higher margins than others. All of this stuff is impossible for me to know without getting the clients 'sense' of what their firm should rank for.
This point raises valid discussion between SEO and client. Not a red flag.
Apologies for debating a small point on any otherwise spot on post!
In situations where my own marketing and SEO instincts are at odds with a client demand (and I need the paycheck) my diplomatic response is invariably:
"My professional opinion is X, but I'm also a focus group of one...the only way to find the true answer is to test one approach vs the other."
Considering their demand tends to even things out in a respectful way - their "gut instinct" and your "experience" are placed on equal footing. If testing proves your point then you win your rightful expert authority and can set aside the unreasonable demand. If testing surprises you and shows your client's insight into their customer behavior is valid - then you have not overlooked an opportunity to help their business (which is the value you are being paid to deliver).
If they don't respect your professional opinion and are not willing to invest time/resources into conducting a test, THEN you have a problem.
Nick--no apology necessary! After giving the 5 points another pass-through, I have to agree with you. The best SEOs will learn how to ask the right questions of their client. We are the optimization experts, but THEY are the experts in their respective field. Like a good detective, we should be able to tease out important information like customer-related keywords.
I think my original intent for point #5 was to make sure that we substantiate our keyword targets with quantitative analysis (like the moz tools/wordtracker/Google etc.). Ignoring hard data like search volume in favor of what the client uses to Google themselves would be a mistake :)
Thanks for the valuable distinction!
Agreed. You can show someone that there are absolutely ZERO searches for a keyword that they like but they'll still try and push it through. Red flag for sure ;)
I work in a larger much broader technology company. We do many things besides SEO and I feel fortunate because our sales team knows that we are not looking for clients we are looking for the right clients. Thanks for your post.
Thanks for sharing your experience, as many do not like to talk about the ones that got away, nor the difficult to deal with client.
The question that arises in my head is:
Is there a way you could have subtly or sternly put the owner in their place at the beginning of negotiations?
Using my highly accurate skill of hindsight, my guess is you would have done this from the get go, and either avoided the wasted time and effort, or gained respect from the owner. I do realize there is also no pleasing some people, especially someone who wants to be the captain of your ship, or a copilot in your SEO work.
While it makes sense to be as nice as possible when beginning the negotiations with a perspective client, many successful people in many different industries take guff from nobody and are respected for it. Maybe this client needed that?
Thanks for reading! I'm happy to share about the experience--it's always better to learn from other people's mistakes.
To your point about being firm from the start--I absolutely agree. I think the best place to be firm is on paper. Make everything clear in a written agreement, and don't leave anything up to a guess.
In this particular instance, I had an agreement in place, but the client insisted on being the expert. They didn't want a consultant, they wanted a another employee to do what they wanted, instead of doing what they needed.
Wow. In those cases they need to bring someone in house I guess eh? Rough road, but at least you learned a bunch and were willing to share with the rest of us.
I'd add any family member or friend is a bad SEO client. Not because they all are, but because some of them end up as rotten relationships.
From my experience, they don't respect your expertise as much as strangers do, they expect to pay you less, and they want more results. I even got stiffed by one, a step-aunt, with whom I billed less regularly than a typical client because of the illusion of trust. There is also an emotional presence in such contracts, and thus I tend to give more than I am obliged too. This doesn't result in any additional appreciation.
When friends or family approach me these days, I let myself sound enthusiastic about working with them, yet I quote them ridicuously high amounts, and let them walk away feeling like they can't afford my services. It works like a gem, and keeps peace and sanity.
I concede that its annoying when someone tries to tell you how to do your job based on an article they read somewhere. But is a 'good' client someone who really doesn't know much about SEO and just cuts you a check and turns you loose? I have found that more educated clients tend to be better clients than the ones who think SEO is "magic."
Also, with all the shady, black-hat, manipulative and abusive SEOs in the field, a client investing some time and effort into eductating himself can be seen as a form of self-defense. He wants YOU to know that he knows a little something about SEO as well, and he's not going to be taken for a ride.
Absolutely--an educated client will achieve long-term, favorable results. If we (SEOs) are doing our job well, we will build on our clients' existing knowledge. I even recommend sending a client quality articles on SEO (like the SEOMoz beginner's guide), before having the first meeting.
Let me clear: a bad client is not an educated client, it's a client that resists your professional recommendations yet still holds you accountable for results!
@Rand - would love to see a post about how you got clarity and what you did to turn your consulting business around...
6th warning sign: the client throws a fit over you spending time on silly things like content and not creating an elaborate two-page meta keywords tag.
But really, this is an excellent article that applies to every professional, not specifically SEOs. From an employer's perspective, what it boils down to is that an understanding of what you are trying to do and a respect for the people who will help you to accomplish those goals is vital for your project to move forward. When an authoratative ego starts taking control just because you're the boss, it will have a negative impact on your work and the others involved in it.
I've had to do the exact same thing on more than one occassion. When I was first starting my SEO business, I would take anyone willing to pay me (even if it wasn't very much!) because I literally couldn't afford to say no. As I've built my business up, I've earned the privelege of being able to pick and choose my clients. I know who I want to work with and what kind of client I can help the most. Taking on every client would waste my time and their money.
I've been in a similar situation, not with SEO consulting, but with network consulting I used to do a few years back. I learned this lesson the hard way too, but once I did I slept a lot better at night.
I found the best relationships in that business were those that I felt like I was part of the client's team. What we eventually started doing was fostering client relationships like this from the start. We structured our emails, agreements, conversations, everything we could - to get across to the client that we wanted to be viewed as part of their team.
With that mindset things worked a lot better, even with the sometimes difficult to manage clients. It always helps to refer back to that "look, we're a team here right?" mindset.
Cody - great point about being a team. I like to think that site owners are in a partnership with their webmasters. The same can apply to the SEO team as well. If everyone is thinking "we" then everyone takes ownership. You end up with much better results!
Brilliant post - and a reminder of why free work is never a good idea. I stay away from clients who don't understand that I can't guarantee a top 3 ranking - whatever the niche.
A client needs to understand that rankings can go down as well as up ;0)
Direct busybody clients towards social media, forum marketing & blogging.Create the situation where they have to, and they won't look back.
Strongarm them into social media, forums and other channels by doing "outreach / SEO" that provokes questions and comments that they'll have to respond to, like specific questions about their products and services or personal feedback & anecdotes.If they're SEO-inclined, when they do get engaged by Social Media even a little, follow up with some cool Social Media SEO articles, tools, tips, etc to get them further engaged - and effective. And also to give then something different to read about.
This is also takes care of valuable and important channels where the audience is active, and where it really should be the client, not you pretending to be them.
Good post here, I think you've covered a lot of good ground!
I think your findings show the need for education when it comes to SEO. We often think that we are the ones needing to be educated more and more (which is true), but I think we also need to recognize that it is OUR responsibility to educate our clients about what is and what is not possible. We need to show results, we need to show case studies, and we need to define expectations beforehand. I'm a firm believer in defining the key KPIs before you even put your own signature on a contract, to be the consultant/contractor.
Great point on education. I think that's what sets apart good SEOs from great ones. Sustainable SEO is achieved when a client develops a mindset for best practices. Education not only helps align a client's expectations, it helps deliver results in the long-run. Teach a man to fish, right?
Also, promoting your client's education sheds the stigma of SEO being some back-room, black magic trick, performed by trench-coat wearing hackers. It demonstrates that the discipline is a teachable skill that has ongoing business value.
Lots of great perspectives presented in both the original post, as well as the comments that follow. Having been consulting for a number of years, I truly believe that each individual needs to determine which "rules" to follow for themselves when it comes to which clients to work with.
Personally, I have found that I love what I do much, much more when I have a relationship of mutual respect and with my clients and when we genuinely enjoy working with one another. For me, that sometimes means passing on a client that doesn't appear to be a good fit -- and yes, "good fit" is subjective. I've found that most clients need (and want) educating, along with the work they've contracted for hire.
My motto is that life is simply too short to work with clients that bring more pain than pleasure. Kudos to the author for taking a stand on what's truly important to him!
Hehe some classic comments!
We have a bunch of questions in our qualifying process that weed out potential problem clients. We find out answers to stuff like:
-whether they actually understand what marketing is
-whether they are/have paid for marketing (offline or online) before and how much (to get their idea of a reasonable spend $$)
-what their response is when we suggest Adwords may be a better strategy for traffic in the short term (if its an absolute no without listening to our reasoning then this is a major warning sign)
-whether or not their entire business is relying on SEO/online marketing (I don't want a call every two minutes because traffic is down, or they haven't got many enquiries this week...being responsible for SEO is very different to being responsible for getting leads and converting those into sales, if you're business fails because you have less traffic for a week thats a business problem not an SEO problem)
-why they're moving from their existing provider if they have one...have had some interesting responses to this one too!
"whether or not their entire business is relying on SEO/online marketing"
Absolutely! I love the enthusiasm, but some folks believe SEO/SEM is the magic bullet--a stand-alone substitute for a well-rounded marketing mix. Truthfully, some industries can "live by SEO alone". But most need to consider the big picture and see our services as one component in their business strategy-albeit an important one.
Any tips for how you have handled ongoing contact with the client? Have you tried retainer fees?
Good question - we try and put all clients on a retainer or monthly ranking and reporting plan where they get a monthly traffic report and ranking report that we review and do a 15-30 minute call with them.
The ranking and traffic report and monthly called is what's called a critical non-essential. Its not actually required to do business and won't win the business but its one of those small little things that you do that keeps the business.
Usually only do retainer where it makes sense though and we actually deliver real value - eg managing adwords campaign ongoing or taking care of their email marketing for them, usually this works better for businesses that can monetize better like ecommerce sites or dental/medical specialists
The CEO always knows best!
And what a nightmare that can be.
I recently spent weeks if not months on a carefully-constructed SEO campaign on behalf of my company, only to be steered away from it and down an illogical path dictated by my CEO.
His friend runs another business with a different SEO strategy, and, not to be outdone, our CEO decided that we should copy theirs, even though the two businesses were completely different in almost every aspect. What made matters worse is that the other scheme had no statistical methods of showing levels of success - it was all done on gut feeling. Whenever things went right, the SEO campaign got the credit. When things didn't happen, "it takes time".
Needless to say, much time has been wasted, and I've been slowly maneuvering our SEO campaign back on course. Sadly any credit for success along the way is given to the CEO's mate, but never mind, the paychecks keep rolling in and weekends are never far away.
Its one thing I have learnt the hard way is not to under price work in order to win. You need to be honest about the amount of time and effort and therefore cost involved in gaining a good rankings for a the keywords they are chasing. I would now rather not win the client then under price the work and not get the results they think they are due. I tend to ask for some idea of budget before I start the research to see if they are really interested in the project and have the budget to get the results.
I think the comment about them quoting SEO blogs and names is a good one to watch for. A little knowledge is dangerous as its normally limited. If they knew that much then they should be doing it in house :)
I had an experience where the MD of a company refused to pay me considering no value addition in SEO, Local Business Listing and adwords. He paid me half the amount and lifted his hand!
And the company lists in top three in local listing for most relevant keywords today; though organic search results is taking a bit of time.
Must be really hard to say no especially when you're just starting out. The problem is some people really want quick results and some people want to control everything. The people that want both are MAJOR problems.
I have very bad experience with my link building campaign. My client said me that, can you send me list of website where you have submitted my links? What is link building?
I think that, this is normal requirement & send to my client. Give some answers of question regarding link building.
We achieved top 10 ranking for target keyword after 3 months of this communication. I just communicate with client regarding it & on that time my client makes me dump.
He said me that, “I have started link building campaign at my own with some reference of your data and internet help. I have also added some value to get higher rank in this keyword.”
Now, what can I say for it?
I have had a conversation like this before and what would make a better client, one that doesn't know anything about SEO or one that has a knowledge about SEO. It's a good debate if you ever want it to get a goo convo going. I think that it is almost better to have someone that doesn't know anything about SEO so you can relay on to them what you know and make sure that you are making them feel included in the process.
I have found that these type of clients actually cost you more time than you would allocate to them in their package due to all the emails and phone calls - thus they actually cost you money
Thanks for the useful article it is very helpful and I think it will help me make a good decision
Very nice post. This type of thinking can be applied on a larger scale to any of you entrepreneurs out there. It's easy to say yes all the time, but this post makes a great point(s) about the client-SEO relationship. It has to be right for both parties. Thanks for posting!
Good Post Josh, if you don't mind me adding a contribution to your list. There is an additional list of 15 bad SEO client symptoms that I found useful 15-seo-worse-enemies
There has been times when a client hires two SEOs-- and one social media person that also knows SEO-- so then you have about three SEOs working on the same project. The client seats down and lets the whole thing unfold. There is not project manager in place, so the client has "accidentally" put 3 people to compete with each other. Each one talks to the client about how her or his ideas are the best one to implement. The client doesn't have SEO or any digital marketing background, so he is stocked on making a decision. The only decision making mechanism here is "whom ever can prove than he is better than the other wins the client.
This hasn't happened to me, but a colleague of mine went through this.
While I can appreciate frustration with clients that fit your 5 warning signs, three comments resonate with me:
samerhadi - giving us the doc analogy
Gyorgy - citing the importance of a good contract
dohertyjf - reminding us how important education is
In regards to the doc analogy, it's quite possible to challenge conventional pharmacological thinking (how docs are trained) with physiological facts (which doctors aren't trained). We need doctors but we also need to be proactive in order to keep that important health relationship.
One way to be proactive is with education. I like to approach my small business customers in the spirit of collaboration, and a big part of that is educating the client - sometimes just going through a solid process does that for us. "A good patient is an educated patient" was a campaign I worked on that was uber successful - surpassing projections by 300% within the first month (we estimated ROI after 3 months).
The best way to establish a great client relationship is your first interaction, IMO. Before your first convo, require that they fill out a creative brief. The process of filling that out is a HUGE education for any client and it becomes their marketing bible - much like a business plan is at the core of their business.
Then comes a contract proposal that is not only highly detailed, professionally written and almost legally formatted, but also knocks them over with your style. For new customers there are extra pages - almost like you would find in a resume - with an intro, skills, background, professional network references, work history with salary and contact info, links to online portfolio and education.
From the moment they start filling out the creative brief and while they process the magnitude of your proposal, the client becomes educated in a variety of ways while building trust and respect. Communication takes on a whole new vibe.
It's a process that helps me to help clients who might have started out on your bad list.
After a couple decades working for corporations, I've just recently taken the solo plunge with great success. I give credit to the process.
Just experienced this last night...!! Thanks for this posts.
I have had a conversation like this before and what would make a better client, one that doesn't know anything about SEO or one that has a knowledge about SEO. It's a good debate if you ever want it to get a goo convo going. I think that it is almost better to have someone that doesn't know anything about SEO so you can relay on to them what you know and make sure that you are making them feel included in the process.
It's definitely risky when family and business overlap, especially in an industry such as this. Like you mentioned, it's always nice to help a friend/family member. However, internally, things can get messy. It's difficult to manage your time allocation efficiently, because in reality, you're always going to step up your performance when the project you're working on is for a friend or relative. At the same time, this can be beneficial. When we reach this "top-level" of performance, it's often refreshing - it reminds us of our true capabilities and adds excitement to a dulling process. So, it's really a judgement call. If you have the time and effort to spare, I say go for it. It's always nice to help someone close. However, be conscious of your other projects/clients, as well. Don't let extra effort on one project spell poor effort on another.
Great article! I have been guilty of accepting new clients with many of the issues that you described. I have gotten better at weeding out a lot of the tough ones, though.
The biggest two problems I seem to see are the "Know it all" types as you pointed out. They generally read an article and then come to me with a "Shouldn't we be doing this?" kind of nudge. The problem is that when that happens, you can lose focus. There are not enough hours in the month to implement every idea from every article.
The other one is pricing. I am not sure how others bill customers but I go with a monthly fee for about 20 hours of work. That gives me flexibility to focus those hours on what I feel it is neccessary at the time. Every site will generally need some of the same work but the show up in different forms and may require more work or different strategies to meet the end goal.
Good points and fit not just on the SEO aspect but development at large.
I've been down that path too, brother. I used to take on anyone who would pay us, but I think that is just what you have to do when you get started. I've been running my company now for 13 years and I can now happily say that I turn down clients who do what you stated above. My general response to people who name drop books / SEO/marketing guides, etc, is 'if you already know all of this, then you don't need me'. I sit back and wait, if they come back, then its worth working with them.
Still hard walking away from big money projects, but its nice to know that I am not the only one.
I've been down that path too, brother. I used to take on anyone who would pay us, but I think that is just what you have to do when you get started. I've been running my company now for 13 years and I can now happily say that I turn down clients who do what you stated above. My general response to people who name drop books / SEO/marketing guides, etc, is 'if you already know all of this, then you don't need me'. I sit back and wait, if they come back, then its worth working with them.
Still hard walking away from big money projects, but its nice to know that I am not the only one.
Sometimes the best option is reject the client project, especially if he don't want undersand the seo issues, bad clients can give you problems.
Agreed. Good points on checklist though :)
Good article and some good points raised here. I agree with making an upfront charge for research then crediting them at the other end. You have to value yourself and your time and they have to learn this too.
"They name-drop books, blogs, and other SEO-related materials in nearly every conversation." That's my number 1 reason for walking away from a business opportunity - the 10 million emails with links and quotes from resources around the Internet aren't worth the money!
Rock On , Good for you.
I agree with Josh Sturgeon. Choosing the client with Bad SEO ideas ruins the SEO career. Most of the clients looking to hire SEO professionals confused with the wrong SEO commitments spread over online.
E.g 1000 Backlinks with in 3 days makes your site SEO super star
The client who affected with the above mindset will surely a challenge.
These are excellent points! I also run a business where I would do the research up front for free, and you have definitely changed my mind on this issue! Thanks!
-Seth Austin Bergman
https://ATXInvestorMasterminds.com
And maybe one more but this one stretches across a lot of industries. Most customer that I have even some of the pretty good ones don't value my time.
"They name-drop books, blogs, and other SEO-related materials in nearly every conversation." That's my number 1 reason for walking away from a business opportunity - the 10 million emails with links and quotes from resources around the Internet aren't worth the money!
I'm happy to know your experience. From now on. I want to learn more about SEO. Can you help me and give me some strategies?
I agree with what has been discussed here BUT everyone has a price. say for example the worst client ever offered you a million dollar contract.. Would you still decline?
Nice simple and effective post the third point on unrealstic timetable was probably the biggest point to focus on, but one point missing is they are focused on using the cheapest providers where possible for webhosting, web design and development.
A big point is they continue to offer the idea that you are competiting with what they can get from India so if you can't cut it they will give it to the next person that emails them to offer SEO. The concept of being felt to feel like shit as their way of maintaining control over you is not something a good client does...
Much wisdom here. I'd add one other warning sign.
When the prospective client says "why should I hire you when i can just hire someone else who says he can hack Yelp's servers to remove the negative results for free and he guarantees the result"....
...run for the hills! Fast.
ha! Daniel, it sounds like you have personal experience with that one :)
My lips are sealed.
Good post! I'll add a red flag to the list (what are we up to - 10?):
Any client who demonstrates excessive use of the word "sue" in reference to other entities with whom they have done business in the past. Even with a good contract, nobody needs that kind of aggravation!
Wow, I thought I was the only person, no really! I had a client in September last year, but was due to turn over 125,000 per client and was expecting to have 100 exclusive clients. However he wantd no on-site optimisation (which isn't really the definition of SEO - but helps sometimes on a newly registered domain)
He'd phone me daily asking for stuff that really I should be getting a drink for occasionally. He said he wanted it done for free cos he had no budget however later found out he was paying thousands to a public relations company. He was expecting me to do hours of work for him for nothing.
I don't mind working on a commission basis as I've proven that it works time after time after time and therefore I know I'll find a return in the work I provide maybe not tomorrow but soon.
In the end I terminated him and said thank you but Good bye.
I like the way you put it, "I terminated him". :) Will have to start using that.
I'm curious about your commission system--I imagine this worked best for CPA oriented affiliate sites or e-commerce?
Hey Jsturgeon,
The company itself was an exclusive membership 7 days, 7 events, 7 cities for the rich. He I'd be offered perks such as attending theses exclusive membership parties of which one was hosted in the UK (London) I did think on one hand I could go and network.
He was a good guy though. I hope he collects membership he had to cancel this year as no one signed up.
Comment deleted
Hi Sean--well said. I don't think the analogy is strained at all.
I agree with you that that prospective clients with prior SEO knowledge can be a major asset. As stated in one of the comments above, educating our clients should be a top priorty if we want them to achieve long-term results. If they already have a foundation to build on....all the better!
The problems arise when a "patient" outright rejects the doctor's treatment plan on the basis of their limited study...and then tries to hold the doctor accountable for their lack of recovery!
There are no hard and fast rules but choosing clients that you can work well with is an oft overlooked area. Some clients will know little but believe they know it all, some will question you, others will come off the back of bad experiences with other 'seo' companies - the list goes on.
A client has to show a willingness to get involved, to listen, to feedback and to action any requests. If you can find a client that you build a great working relationship with and that is 100% behind the process then you can really get some great results and more importantly, enjoy it in the process.
I have chosen to work exclusively with SEO and internet marketing over my previous website development leanings as I enjoy the work and field so much. To then go and choose clients that make my life a misery would make a mockery of that tough decision.
On a side note, it takes experience to turn away work, especially in tough economical times but if the job is not right and you sense trouble from the get go, then it is certainly the right thing to do. Concentrate your efforts where they are apprecaited and where you can enjoy the work.
This is a good starter list, but we've run into tons of reasons to fire a prospect. Here are a few reasons we would turn down a prospect.
1. They constantly complain about their previous SEO
2. The prospect's website, products or services don't appear to have any competitive advantages in the market
3. Their website relies completely on ad revenue
wow--great additions to the list. #2 is crucial. No marketing program (including SEO) should never stand in place of a quality product or service. You can put lipstick on a pig...but it will always be, unequivocally, a pig.
I could discuss this topic all day. Feel free to come hang out at our offices sometime if you want to vent and construct the most epic list of reasons to fire a prospect. With all that said, we have a ton of clients that are awesome to work with.
You did the right thing. I made that mistake once and I lose a year working with a client. It made my life miserable. It's normal to fall in this trap when we are starting. We are in need of getting our business going and we just want any work to prove our skills and to make money quick. Fortunately we learn more with bad experiences than with good ones.
Spot on with your article I enjoyed reading this one. It is very much the same position I am currently in. I would add one Red Flag extra which is a Webdesign company who have a site that states they also do "SEO" as they tend to be some what prickly as you are seen to have taken the business away from them.
As a freelancer who is dangerously close to quitting the part time gig and freelancing full time, the freedom to walk away from a disaster like this is worth tons of $$$. We chose freelancing to have the lifestyle we want, and being opressed by a bossy client is like going back to punching a time clock. Good move on your part, I think, and I've learned to do the same. Thanks for your post!
My best advise for cleints in the small business area is if they say oh you can buy seo software for 50 bucks that can do all this, then you need to proove what exactly this software does. You can show that it will do next to nothing to assist the SEO process.
I have dealt with many clients as my time been an SEO I can agree it is not wise to go with clients who have highly un realistic goals, some clients who are CPA driven at times will want to acquire a crazy CPA yet they will only spend a small amount, it really comes down to client education.
A good contract can help a lot. My contract clearly says what I'm responsible for and what the client has to provide. If a client doesn't provide me with the necessary information or supplies the required materials or follows my instructions then I cannot be held responsible for the failure of the SEO project. Two examples:
1. A client paid the deposit to start the project and according to the contract they had to provide the copy for the new product pages. They didn't send me the copy so I couldn't continue working. The 50% deposit of the on-site SEO was paid so I didn't care too much.
2. A dodgy CMS couldn't implement the Analytics script and the business owner didn't want to pay the dev team to fix it. I told him that the GA is a must have and without GA the success of the campaign can't be guaranteed. I asked for a written confirmation that he accepts the risk.
I really need to get more specific in the contract. I especially need something that says if the client does counterproductive things like buying thousands of garbage links with the exact same anchor texts that appear overnight, paying someone for dozens of poorly written blog articles and posting them all in one day, or creating a bunch of mirror sites with cloaked URLs - all despite my repeated warnings not to do those specific things - then all bets are off and don't ask why your site's rankings have dropped for all of your keywords.
I have always prided myself in being very flexible and not being like so many who upcharge for every tiny variation in the original agreement. But maybe I am getting a little jaded, or at least tired of jumping through some pretty ridiculous hoops.
Agreed...they would have been trouble, espeically if they don't mesh with your morales and beliefs. Hopefully one of your competitors will pick them up!
SEO has become very well known now and our marketing edge as professionals will continue to get harder to prove. Clients love to think they are working beside you and only together "we" are making success happen. I work with too many IT management positions who have no idea what they are rambling on about but love to tell me all about their newly acquired SEO knowledge and to know my thoughts. Our clients and Google will continue to make our job harder, the majority of our clients competition now have SEO consultants and it has become a continuous race.
Bad seo clients in my experience think the 30% additional revenue for their company comes from their new favicon, or something just as ridiculous. I usually have to sit down with the management and explain everything about what our work has done. In our case, before companies are approved an SEO budget they have approved 100 other marketing efforts at the same time. Bad clients are almost expected.
Love your post! Has me thinking a lot about how I need to become an IT manager for a big company.
Daniel, your comment on the favicon just killed me! Hmmm I wonder if we can get some alt text on that?? :)
The popularity of our industry is a double-edged sword: all the buzz helps us get in the door, but most people know just enough to be dangerous.
We all had a share of our BAD Clients. They come and go, like you said, not everything is worth sweat and blood, so at the start you should be able to tell if they are someone you can work with. I honestly can't stand when a 2 bit know it all (that in fact has no clue what he is talking about) tries to teach me how to do SEO. The last client I had like that I asked him at the end, well since you are so SEO savy, why don't you come work for me, I'll pay you to do SEO for my website. Needless to say, we didn't part on good terms, but again, that was my mistake as there were plenty of opportunities where I could see what is going on and should have just dropped the ball and walk away.
You have done the right decision to not take that job. Sorry for the "wasted" time -even though it's not all wasted if you learned from that. I think it's important to lay out the "whole" process at the beginning. This way you will not to competitor and market analysis and kw research upfront for free - if a client feels like he should not pay for this then THIS is the very signal to move on.
I feel you man. It hurts to lose a client!
I wish there was the freedom on the agency side to walk away from a client, but its mostly not possible.
Very true :) Sometimes you're the dog and sometimes you're the tree
Yeah, just walking away can have serious results for the SEO company. last thing we need is a pissed off client going around posting negative reviews...
You're absolutely right. While ideally you may want to walk away from difficult clients, there are ripple effects to this. While you're able to move on, you may hurt from negative reviews and, depending on who the client is and their network, may have to go on the defensive a little. Everything needs to be done to work with the client before walking away, even if the only motivation is to have examples that you worked with the client to resolve every issue, and it still didn't work out.
I've walked away from pain-in-the-butt clients on occasion when the project was a hopeless quagmire.
Never got slammed, never saw or heard negativie WOM and in fact, several of those clients have contacted me to do other assignments for them even though the last one was a complete impaction.
On the other hand, I've stayed up all night working on projects that got me slammed on bid-fer sites, that went through MONTHS (yes, months) of revisions and never led to repeat work so to lose a bad client is a glorious, liberating thing that restores self-esteem and puts us in control of our professional lives.
If the SEO/SEM/copy writer doesn't say 'no' that moronic client will never put on the brakes. There's ego and control involved and some buyers simply can't get out of their own ways.
Totally disagree on this semi-thread of developing a bad rep. Too many people need good SEO. There's no shortage of clients and it feels soooooo good to get rid of that project creep literally and figuratively.
Paul
I know your pain having run my own business for 2 years. I am currently employed, but used to hate feeling like I was forced to work with anyone to try and win new business.
Fortunately I never came across clients discussing Clickbank products as an alternative (thank god!).
For me the biggest problem is handling sales / delivery. I found the more knowledgeable I became with search the harder it became to sell. I think the key is to try and leverage yourself in a freelancing consulting capacity for reasonable sized companies to review, help police their agencies / suppliers and make their money go further.
Its not easy, by any means, however this is the kind of work I would go for using hindsight. Client benefits heavily commercially and you avoid pitching against scammers or larger suppliers. Also the more strategic you go the more you can get paid :-)
A piece of advice I was given but never unfortunately actioned, was to do a very limited amount in the early stages, then CHARGE FOR EVERYTHING. You will lose more people, but the ones that are happy to pay for your time early e.g. a day to come in and access their site / analytics / CMS / work out how to help them best are the good clients you want longer term.
Thanks for your comment, Steve--I think your advice is right on. Go strategic, sell expertise, and let someone else deliver on your advice. This can get a little bit risky (if the person called in to deliver on your plan is not competent), but you develop a competitive advantage very quickly by sticking to a niche.
I remember Rand posted about the history of SEOmoz--they started out consulting but realized that it was very difficult to scale. As with any business, the ones who are most succesful find a niche, lead the niche, and even create a new niche from their experience.
My pleasure glad to see your post is getting some attention. Its a great topic and one many of us feel passionate about!
Please shout any time. My contact details are in my profile.
Happy hunting finding the good clients. They can take a while!
:-)
The FBI comes to a small town and the local sheriff gives them grief.
Web analytics pros encounter HiPPOs who won't take their suggestions.
Sherlock Holmes meets resistance from Lastrade?
This is a problem of psychology. I wish I knew how to find the peer reviewed papers on the topic.
That's why I don't do consulting, I got tired of clients wanting me to use black hat or didn't understand that results still needed to be user friendly.
Alway go on about how much traffic they have and how high their conversion rates are but will never share the data. Makes me angry just thinking about this client.
Great post! Thanks for sharing.
I remember a potential client who was so convinced that SEO is just putting the right keywords on the meta tags (not even on the content). My options were, A. debate with him to my last breath that it's more than just that, hoping I'd convince him to hire my services or B. walk away.
I chose B.
The warning signs list gave me a giggle.
It's hard to turn down clients in the beginning though. Even with the warning signs sometimes you are so desperate for work that you can't say no. Of course it usually ends up being a frustrating and horrible experience, but you move on. It's so important to keep chasing leads and have prospects in the sales pipeline so you can actually choose who you want to work with and decline the others.
Good post Josh! I know exactly where you are coming from.
It's most definitely a two way thing. It's our job to educate the client and make sure that they have reasonable expectations of what they want to achieve in a specific time frame.
Rapport is important for me as well. If I get a good feel for a client and think they will listen to what I need them to understand then fine. If not, I just walk.
I have actually fired clients before! Yep, I fired them.
I used to take on anything like yourself just to get my business up and running but after 4 years of working for clients I am now able to identify which clients will be one big pain in the butt and cause you lots of agro and those who will be good to work with.
For me money doesn't come into it. I love what I do, why have that spoilt by a bad client bitching via email every day?
lol, spot on. we just let a client go off to someone else after a year+ of fairly successful work because he still wasnt getting the long term aspects of the project, because it didnt fit with his newest business expansion plan.. "it has to do this (total world domination) by this date"
better to let someone else have that stress.
I totally agree and just got out of a 10 year nightmare with a partner and client that was just this!! Exactly as he put it in the bullet points!! Wow... some really great insight for people who might not as of yet, worked in the private section of consulting!!
Funny you about this. Today I am going to Newport Beach to meet with a very strong lead. It's a 1.5 hour drive. I don't know if I want to deal with the owner because he is stuck on using template websites (Cookie Cutters). Hopefully the testimonial from my client will give the prospective client faith in me.
Like any business (my wife ius a freelance copywriter and has the same issues) having a good pipeline is what gives you the latitude to pick and choose the "best' clients - be it profitability, trophy value, interesting projects, meaningful work, etc. Unfortunately you are sometimes forced to suck it up and take on less-than-optimal business to pay the bills.
Good motivation to go out and find more clients, no?
You just describe my previous boss, "seo specialist"...
It's a real pain to work with someone who (think he) know everything...
lol, this remind me of what happened today
a call coming from certain company want to built a company website, but they want their product to be on the first page when people search for it... then i asked "What is your product name?" ... they answered "it could be anything... and i want when people google my product it goes to the first page"
..... silly client is silly :(
I once worked for someone who refused to have GA installed. They believed that GA was making up stats. They were forceful in wanting to have links in farms and every place they would accept a submission or link exchange. We had several choice words and in the end I had to walk away.
Nice list, I fully agree. You definitely did the right thing. We found ourselves once in a relationship like that, as someone's puppet, and it keeps your hands completely tied, frustrating and nearly impossible to get them the results you know you can get them!
I especially agree with charging up front for your initial analysis. We do this to weed out potential partners (we see our clients as partners and in our minds, we're interviewing them too!); someone willing to pay for your research upfront is serious enough about growing their business. Not to mention that in the early days, we have been burned estimating what needs to be done, then come to find out they have a website disaster on their hands that will take much more to repair.
Though I know what you mean about an SEO know it all, we also will consider passing on a potential partner if they know NOTHING as well. We almost prefer to have someone with some internet marketing knowledge and experience already, seems like we can pick it up and run with it, really get some things done, instead of spending a lot of time teaching them why you can't just buy 1000 links from that spammer that emailed you.
Great post, always refreshing to have your attitude validated, thanks for sharing.
Amen brother! The biggest advantage of owning your own company is to be able to walk away from prospects or clients that are unreasonable. We've all had them, we just don't like to talk about it.
I've been working with SEO for over eight years and while I might not be able to recite Google's entire search algorithm, I do know a whole lot about SEO. When a prospect or client feels they know more than me, it is time to say goodbye. Afterall, they don't really need me then do they?
My real-world experience trumps your recently read blog post any day of the week. Especially when that blog post was simply a repeat of someone else's blog post that was written back in 2008.
You know who has this problem too? Car salespeople. I blame it on working in an industry where the buyer can spend a lot of money and doesn't know a lot about the industry.
One way I've tried to approach this is to see if the project has multiple phases and start with one. We typically move folks from project to agreement to retainer. I'm blunt with them. Let's start working together on this part. That helps you learn how you like working with us and how future phases of the project will impact your business and its operations.
It's a softer close, sure, but it also helps learn if the client was on their best behavior that day. It does the same thing for them too.
These all points arise by many of our clients but before start project we have to make check list and signed all the positive points about up coming work related to SEO stuff and make all the things clear under client consideration that it will hurt your website SEO...
Thos types of clients should be turned down even if how much money they can pay. They are not good in the business and a pain in the &*@$