SEOmoz is considering adding a twinge of ebony to the hat color of our posting team. However, before making the move, we'd like your input. Would you like to see content that includes issues like:
- Spam tactics like cloaking, automated link building & bait & switch techniques
- Search engines penalties & bans
- Click fraud, Adsense farms & other contextual ad systems
- Black hat tools & research
SEOmoz does NOT endorse the use of these tactics, particularly those that could negatively affect user experience. But, we are interested in learning more about the search engines' rules, abilities and how the world of spam and manipulation are changing.
How do you feel? Should SEOmoz add a black hat as an author?
The general feeling I'm getting is that there's more support for having the information available on SEOmoz than against. Let's continue discussion for at least 2-3 more days and then we'll make a decision.
Looking forward to reading about Black Hat on your site. There is not enough talk about Security, hacking and cracking.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define...
https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define...
Black Hat and Black Hat Seo are two different industrys. To include Click fraud, Adsense farms & other contextual ad systems.
As soon as you mentioned click fraud as a black hat technique i lost interest.
Click fraud is more of an issue that black hat SEOs would have familiarity with, as they are experienced with how to build and run clickbots, vary IP adresses, etc. I think you wouldn't find as much value in hearing from those items on the white hat side...
Why would click fraud not interest you, plebian?
Black hat seo and pay per click fraud is not the same subject. As soon as you mention click fraud they turn from being white/black hats to criminals. I am all up for discussing click fraud and theft in general but to just say `talk about black hat and click fraud` is completely whacked.
I know loads of so called respectable online store owners that hire coders to build click bots to cut out the competition.
Russian fraud Coders, Indian clickers,, Nothing to do with black hat seo.
You will proabably cause some controversy posting about black hat seo on your blog.
It may not help in building your brand because black hat seo and white dont seem to mix on the same site (imo) but it should pick up some nice backlinks for you.
I think there are a few ways you could approach this:
1. For those of us readers that are not necessarily in the SEO/SEM profession, being educated and current on what may constitute BH practices is extremely important. Yes, we can go to various sites and forums to learn about those techniques as others here have mentioned, but since I'm not in the SEO business personally I prefer to rely on reputable bloggers such as Rand for my information (probably a different perspective than the majority of SEOmoz readers I admit). It's not that good information can't be found in those places, it's just harder to know who really knows their stuff and who is full of it.
2. Discuss what practices are really BH. To me, while some things are clearly BH, there are some practices that just are not clearly in that category. Perhaps discuss these in terms of risk/reward or pro/con.
3. Focusing on "gray hat" rather than black hat is inherently more interesting. A conversation about something clearly wrong(let's say murder) is not nearly as interesting as a conversation on something not so clearly wrong (e.g. euthenasia of a suffering person). Of course, what is BH vs. GH is subjective, but you get the idea.
I agree your feeling that discussions of this type would not affect your brand in any way. In fact, as someone hiring a SEO/SEM professional, I would expect you to be knowledgeable about and capable of discussing all practices--black, white, and in between.
Just my 2 cents.
Rand,
I have a similar philosophy about BH as you - it's better to know than not. I may test an idea from time to time but never on a client site as I am WH, preach WH and sell WH. I'm madly underqualified to try BH techniques *for real*.
The one "condition" I'd suggest is making it clear who is posting (something that has caused plenty of confusion already and that you've promised to clear up). The BH in question should probably carry a disclaimer, or a link to a disclaimer, in their posts so the viewer understands there is a difference.
And by sliding more of the BH responsibilities to this new poster you could actually clean up your image and the image of seomoz with it (everyone associates you with the brand anyway).
Ultimately knowing only half the tools available for SEO makes us only half as good as we could be. Once we have the info, we can make informed decisions on how to procede with our sites.
Show me a whitehat who hides his head in the sand and won't even want to know anything about any shady techniques who can investigate a site ban. There is one thing about teaching how to use blackhat methods and promoting them and quite another thing about knowing your business - which is not possible without knowing everything there is to it. There is one thing about script kiddies as brainless as they come - but they won't learn anything anyway - and quite another about being professional and knowing what each technique is worth. Spam in its ugliest and stupidest form comes from the script button pushing kiddies and has nothing to do with professional SEO.
Also, FYI, AdSense click fraud is NOT a blackhat technique but pure fraud.
Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
Strong am I in the force... But not that strong.
The one piece I would take issue with is whether this affects SEOmoz's corporate clientele - I think it will have little or no impact. Many of the most successful consultants in this business, from Webguerilla to Mikkel dMS to DaveN and on have Black Hat knowledge and/or experience.
The question shouldn't focus on dilution of SEOmoz's brand to potential clients, IMO but on whether the readers here are interested in the subject and whether there are realistic concerns that just talking about spam could make it a bigger problem.
Quadszilla's point is also a good one, though I feel like I spend too little time in the online Black Hat world (forums, blogs, etc.) to poiint out the worthy issues. Perhaps that's another task this new blogger could take on.
Talking about anything related to SEO that is interesting inevitably creates more spam and more curiosity for spamming.
And realistically, what is viral marketing / tagging / linkbaiting but another form of spam?
How could viral marketing / linkbaiting be spam?
If you create something that interests people and makes them talk about it / link to it, it can't be spam. Also, doesn't spam have to scale?
Rand, you could damage your reputation with prospective clients by allowing your blog to venture too far into black hat topics. But it is impossible to measure. Perhaps you could limit the new blogger's posts to once weekly in the beginning to gauge response.
I agree with Brett's comment above.
Lindsay - I think we'd certainly have to limit how much "encouragement" we were giving vs. providing quality information and education - good points.
Its obvious from the comments left on here that there is a huge misunderstanding what "blackhat" is. Your readers would be well served if you covered it.
there we go with the blackhat again
what has this seo blog got to do with hacking and cracking?
more to the point what the heck does black hat have to do with hacking and cracking ? There is no direct relationship. Blackhat simply means using techniques that are frowned on to develop traffic, while many of those are technical in nature, that does not inherently mean you "cracked" or "hacked" anything.
Blackhat != Fraud Blackhat != Crime
Stop talking trash
https://www.blackhat.com/Computer security https://www.syndk8.com/Serious Devient Seo`s
Such different subjects but they are being grouped together.
Who's "talking trash" pleb? The comments above seem very expository and accurate to me.
webprofessor - excellent points. Black hat is precisely that - using techniques discouraged by the search engines to build traffic. There's nothing inherently fraudulent or criminal about it.
I think we're coming close to a decision. Thanks guys.
I was saying webprofessor was talking trash. He dosent know who seoplebian is and he dosent know we are friends. Sorry i was feeling a bit confrontational and trying to wind him up ;)
And you are trying to wind me up here Rand. You know that i wouldnt have a clue what `expository` means and you have used big words on purpose to confuse me.
I think the information would be useful, perhaps some research into the negative effects would help?
Fair enough. All information should be free, it's up to each individual whether to use it or not on one's on risk!
Everyone is using it! I think it should be fair for all, it sould be allowed. After all knowing doenot means everyone will implement it. It can serve as an awareness. Newyork times did use it as well if big kings can use why not it be avilable for everyone to learn.
I personally think that Newbies should be aware of Black Hat Tactics so they can avoid the Pitfalls. Someone may work very hard creating web pages to make money, follow bad advise using black hat seo tactics and get banned from the search engines. I feel there needs to be a place to learn what these tactics are and how to avoid them before the damage is done to their web sites. There are enough people promoting black hat tactics makeing a quick buck off of them not knowing what the harm may be. Author of Knowledge Creates Power web site
comment removed - my mistake
This should be good for a laugh ;)
I don't think it's a good idea. You could damage your brand in the eyes of some perspective corporate clients. Having black hat techniques next to the beginners guide to SEO is like giving a red rider bb gun to a 9-year old . People need to understand that what we do is risky; it can and does get sites banned. Of course, if you think we're missing some black hat topics or are writing about them inadequately or impartially, you are always welcome to post on our site.
By keeping it segregated, and prefacing every link with a “Warning” you’ll be protecting both your brand and your less experienced readers from shooting their eye out!
That's a great idea Rand. Many White Hat SEO's are also very interested in Black Hat SEO...whether they admit it or not.
Why not? To best combat it, you have to know how it works. Sounds like a really great idea, Rand.
Just because a disease exists is no reason to help it spread.
I think it's only fair to show all sides....bring it on!
On other hand, black hats are full of experience, full of practice, full of ideas :) but i don't know
Hello, rand!
I would like to thank you, first of all, for all the info you provide.
Now, to the topic at hand. I wrote an article on blackhat for my blog (it is in Romanian, so I wont put any link to it) and found myself thinking of the same issue: should I or should I not go into details?
I chose not to mostly because those that are really interested in blackhat will find info anyway (I sure did) and I don't want to give newbies the chance to jump directly to such tactics, since the results are so much more easily to spot in the short run (having 100.000 pages in SEs in 1 month surely beats having a PR2 in 3 months if you want to brag how good you are). Of course, several months later, those 100.000 pages will be reduced to none but, hey, who cares, the newbie showed everyone how good a "SEO" he/she is...
While the topic of blackhat SEO tactics is certainly interesting, I don't know if such a topic should be so easily available...
i think it's ok to expose blackhat techniques. we all know they are out there and i would rather learn about them from a site such as seomoz. many new web designers and site owners have heard of tactics that get results but do not understand the consequences of using them. i think i can still learn from them too and be better at whitehat because of it. we all hear how the blackhats always have a crowd around them at the big shows, obviously they have a wealth of knowledge that whitehats want to know.
* where do whitehats cross the line into dangerous territories
* identifying websites, pages, and code where blackhat tactics are being used. we all read about these things but they are rarley pointed to. many times i wonder if a site i'm looking at is what somebody was talking about. matt cutts is now exposing some sites, telling what they are doing and why google does not like it. it's very helpful.
* how does the blackhat guru attack and research a niche market from start to finish
* why do or don't specific blackhat techniques work
* how do specific techniques attempt to achieve success
* what kind of results does a particular technique typically get
* how are techniques discovered and penalized, what are the consequences
* what makes a tactic blackhat? is it really unethical or just something the search engines are not smart enough to identify?
* what is blackhat & whitehat, ethical & unethical?
all four of issues you mention would be interesting. i would be most interested in blackhat tools & research and search engine penalties and bans. the more you cover the better.
thanks rand, chris
I think this is a great idea!
The tried, tested, and true. Along with thoughts and theories on new fronts.
Stuff like this keeps me up at night!
To say your site is about SEO and then not cover "black hat" is like teaching chemistry but not covering gun powder.
In a word, incomplete.
controversy adds links and authority.
you already have a top 10 brand...I don't think more diversity hurts you, plus - as you have noted in the past - reporters prefer to report on things they think are "black hat"
YES! I'm all for it. Whoever said ignorance is bliss isnt going to win the SEO game. White hats play it safe and just do what everyone else says is "good" and safe. Black hats push the limits and and actually TRY the things the white hats wouldn't.
SEO isn't one-sided, and I dont see any reason to pretend the black hat side doesn't exist by ignoring it. Just be sure to get your legal dept. to write you up a nice disclaimer for all of those poor souls who dont realize the black hat stuff they learn here will quite possibly get them booted sooner or later.
That said, I'd love to see tactics, tools, and research. Although I've always implemented white hat techniques, I want to start experimenting with black hat with a bunch of junk domains on the side to know for myself what really DOES happen, and be all the smarter for it ;)
I'm gonna say nah. I mean aside from the massive amounts of traffic (not that rand needs any more ;) it will bring from the unsavory types seeking this type of info for the sole purpose of exploiting it - I think it would send moz off into a direction it was not intended to go.
All of us paying attention know where to find and discuss this type of thing so another soapbox seems a bit redundant. We can also pretty much guarantee that spotlighting this type of info will only help to increase the number of people looking to deploy this type of stuff - And who wants to lose their ranking?
Im the type of guy that feels that no subject should be taboo or censored but this type of thing is an example of something I would think is better left discussed offline or in small groups.
rmorrow pretty much sums up my feelings on this.
don't do it rand. black hats make the world ridden with spam. taking black hat methods public can only be worse for search users, which are our loyal customers in most cases.