Looking through my email, I'd guess that I send 20 emails per week on average that include a link to the page, and since January, the list has about 5,000 page views. The traffic isn't tremendous, but it's a piece of content that I believe to be incredibly valuable to the industry and to those seeking services. It's actually a far better document now, because you can select "site reviews" from "$5,000 - $10,000" and get a list of firms back that have websites, geographic locations and in many cases (where my contacts said it was OK), an email address and phone number.
Solicitation to the list has always been an issue - despite my disclaimer asking folks not to request inclusion, it happens nonetheless. We've also struggled with the idea of taking referral money; I'm adamantly opposed to it because I believe there's no way to be 100% upfront and honest with prospective clients if you know that different providers have different cost structures, referral fees, close rates, etc. Only by refusing any kickbacks can we be completely fair to the people who need help.
The re-launch of the list made me think about several other questions, too:
- Are there lists like this in other industries and for other services?
- How do I ensure that the firms on the list continue to give high quality experiences to their customers?
- Would it be ethical to place ads for our premium content on the page?
- What level of trust will visitors unfamiliar with SEOmoz place in the list? Will they believe it's truly unbiased?
Thanks Rand. We're thrilled to make the list and I think it's a great credit to the openness of your company that you can do this kind of thing.
As another in a long line of people saying the same thing, I don't think there's any problem with you advertising on there. In some way, it might even combat some of the potential feeling that there is a reward to you for listing companies in that it gives you a 'business reason' (beyond the aforementioned openness) to have the page.
Hey guys,
Try some of the filtering again and see if it is fixed. I tweaked it to be a little more as expected.
Seems to be working now Jeff. At least I haven't noticed any problems in my random searches.
That's easy to fix. Add a line to the top blurb that says something to the effect of: "New to SEOmoz? Why should you trust our recommendations?" and send them to your About page.
Speaking of which, I'd recommend that your About page include SEOmoz's point of differentiation. The secret sauce powering SEOmoz both as a firm and as a blog (and as you mentioned in the faceoff), is openness.
For me at least, a firm not just known but built upon its straight-talking & straight-shooting approach has a powerful USP, especially in an industry where we have so many unscrupulous bastards. Take advantage of it!
Nice and easy solution to the help someone new to the site. I think the site does a pretty good job selling itself and convincing anyone of the level of trust that can be placed in the information here.
Giving them a nudge to explore the site, espeicailly toward the about page is probably the best way to handle the issue for new users.
Nice overview!
To me it really looks like an editorial review, you stated that a few times and there is nothing that would suggest otherwise, like added referrals ID's and more positive feedback for certain companies.
Since you provide all that detailed information about essentially competitors of yours, I would definitely say it's OK to promote yourself. You can surely add ads for your premium content and I would even list your own company in there as well, as people can find that page without being referred to it by you and there just might be a customer looking for exactly what you have to offer and vice versa.
I think it's important to note that this is more of a popularity contest than any type of study. Sure, everybody here trusts your opinion, but getting onto the list requires that you are popular or take speaking engagements.
I ran an agency for 10 years, until recently, and while I know we were the best around (in our area) hardly anyone in the community knew me by name.
So, while I don't have a better method in mind, I'd just suggest that there be consideration given for including names that aren't necessarily the most popular, social at conferences, or blog baiters.
I'd love to see an interview with the heads of all the people on that list! :) I've no idea what the theme would be, but that'd be a WHOLE lot of knowledge...
I agree with vangogh99 - there should be some type of review option for people who do use your list and use a provider listed there. in the end, you are recomending these people, and their work, good or bad will reflect on you. Having an open review mechanism will ensure that you are kept up-to-date on the quality of the providers that you have listed.
I don't see why not. It's your site! I just think it shouldn't be obtrusive as an earlier commenter said. But anyone who is looking at your reccomended list may also want the option to "Do-it-Themselves" which the premium content will help them do.
Even before I began commenting at SEOmoz I would send people to this site and to this list if they wanted a range of providers because it looked unbiased to me. Especially since you were giving clients to people who could be considered competitors.
BTW: Good thing I got off my lazy bum and filled out that info yesterday. Yikes! i would have been too mad if I saw the list today and I still had not filled out that info. Thanks for including me; I appreciate it.
Rand, I'm not sure the page is accurately filtering the prices correctly. If so, I'd love to have Greg Boser give me a site review for $500-1000. Heh.
To answer your questions:
1 - Rand, as usual you push limits of comfort - there are rarely lists like this because companies don't want to link to "competitors" if your company goal isn't world domination and you are good at seo, you'll find yourself turning down a lot of business, linking out is a great way to be.
2 - Tough question - I think you'll hear it, people are more vocal about negative experiences than positive ones, you will definitely hear if someone is not living up to their rep.
3 - Ethical - absolutely! You are providing a great service, while you aren't trying to dominate the world yet, you still deserve to promote your stuff.
4 - don't underestimate the SEOMOZ name, while danny will always be the granddaddy I think that you are way up on most people's lists as well if someone does any real research in this space they have to come across your blog at some point. After a while as you read blogs and click on their links you eventually find a lot of SEO bloggers are linking here in their articles, over time I think that builds a certain level of respect.
Hey Mozzers, as long as were doing new and improved lists, how about an update on Rand's Daily reading list, that was one of my favorite posts when it came out last time.
THANKS!
Rand, is the price range a flat fee, per month, per year? I think some clarification on that would be helpful to your visitors, especially for the SEO category.
That's a good point actually.
Our range makes most sense in terms of monthly costs for SEO (though the bottom end applies more to managing a small PPC campaign).
Yeah. That's actually a question I had also.
Do most people charge a per month fee for SEO? Or a fixed unique rate?
We do some one-off consulting (hourly rate generally) but most of our SEO work is a monthly rate.
We do yearly contracts but its broken down into monthly payments.
The price range is basically just the range in which they offer services. Most SEO folks have a minimum and a cap size. For example, at SEOmoz, we don't accept contracts under $10K (except in very specialized circumstances - like a speaking gig for Stanford) and anything over $250K is generally too big for us to handle alone.
Sure wish there was a section for "Niche SEOs". ;-P
I have spent the last two years learning about all of the opportunities related to fitness, including vertical directories, etc. and I'm sure there are other SEOs out there who really focus on certain niches, such as education, medical, b2b and so on.
It might make sense to consider allowing for comments from clients, but give the vendors (us) the ability to opt-out of that option. For those of us that opt out, indicate so by including (this vendor has requested comments be turned off). I say this because I can envision comments becoming a me-too fake-accolade spam-fest. And, more importantly, some of us work with clients that are of the size and caiber that they simply "don't do" testimonials. I've worked with Warner Bors, Paramount, Discovery, NatGeo, and I assure you they simply don't have the interest/time to praise on third party sites. The fact that they've stayed clients for 10 years -- is -- the praise. So I simply ask that if comments are going to be allowed, then make it optional.
Eric
Nice updates.
I was tasked last year with recommending some candidates to bring in to train our entire interactive team. I went straight to this list because it told me everything I needed to know to compile an initial list of potential "gurus" to approach--with the exact criteria that would appeal to the directors of the company ($$$)
Of that list, we contacted 3 companies--all of whom were very personable. I like the suggestion of adding reviews, with the option of the listed party to turn the feature off. Though, to be honest, I'd be less likely to contact a company who had turned off the comment feature.
I'd definitely take the time to say a word about my/our experience.
I also don't see any problem with you advertising your premium content on the page--you're recommending yourself just as you would recommend peers. This website is, afterall, part of your business model.
Maintaining a list of this nature aligns with the position you take in the community and only serves to boost your reputation and trust factor. (which serves to promote your business as well)
I think visitors unfamiliar with SEOmoz will take the list as a place to start--just as I did. Simply put, the list is user-friendly and that will appeal. Plus, all they have to do is browse the site to see that there's a lot going on here. Unbiased? Is that really possible? You're recommending companies so some level of bias is inherent. That's part of what makes the list a valuable resource.
I think it's very interesting and very admirable that you do that. A lot of so called "SEO" firms will make you think they're the only game around. I tell potential clients if their company is too big, too small, or just right for what I can offer them. Very nice redesign Jeff!
I don't see any ethical problems with that. You are not really competing with the service providers (whom you're recommending out of goodness of your heart, thank you very much) - someone who needs professional help will not change his mind even if they deside to buy your article. The ones who can't afford the services, might go for your articles - that's just fine and you deserve it.
I agree that advertising the premium content on this page wouldn't be a problem as it's unlikely to stop people who are seriously looking for SEO services from contacting any of the listed companies.
I think it looks great. People, especially those not directly connected to you or SEOmoz, will always have some question or doubt as to reliability or "kickback" in relation to a referral... and there isn't anything more you can do to dispell that. And I think that is perfectly acceptable. Buyer should always be aware no matter what.
I think you've made every effort reasonable to get that message across in a positive and honest fashion, and in a way that also illustrates that you recognize that your personal reputation as well as SEOmoz's reputations are on the line with any recommendation you make.
The average person who would be looking over that list and honestly considering any of those providers is probably intelligent enough to make their own judgement calls and will also realize that this isn't some kind of "affiliate" page.
I second the thoughts above about promoting some of the premium content. I think you can do that in a way that doesn't detract from the professionalism and still be beneficial.
Another way to add additional value might be to create a guide on selecting SEM services with a quick walk through of the various services and what to look for in providers. But again, you can probably assume that most people contemplating your list are beyond that.
I also think this is great for the industry as a whole. It gives an unprecedented source to direct people to when dealing with the "what do you mean you can't do that for $XXX?"
First off, hi Rand and all - i'm becoming a regular at seoMoz, so looking forward to learning from you all.
To ensure your list consists only of high-quality firms, you could allow their customers to rate their experience, and display this rating to users.
I don't think you have an ethical problem, but I wonder how new users, not familiar with seoMoz's transparency culture, would be put off your list when displayed with ads for premium content. seoMoz is a site hard not to browse around - might be better to let them get to know you first.
Cheers
I think it's an improvement on what was already a valuable list, but I'm not sure the filters are working as they should. They aren't as I expect. I get a lot of results not in the price range when searching on the low end of the pay scale.
I can't answer if this exists for other industries, but I'll offer my thoughts on the other questions.
I don't know you can completely ensure the quality of the other firms, but you can add more social features like reviews. We're thumbing people up and down here so why not add some user input to the list. You could also ask that people who do hire a firm based on the list simply email you about their experience to help you maintain its quality.
I think it's perfectly ethical to advertise your own content on the page. It is your site after all. I realize the point of the page is to recommend others, but I think it's fine to also toot your own horn a little too. I'm also sure you can find a way to promote the premium content without it appearing to be too much.
Most will probably place their trust in the list on their trust in you and also how often they've seen some of the names recommended elsewhere. I think the list is most valuable as a starting point for people to research other's for services.
Some people will think the list completely unbiased and some will think it completely biased. There's probably not much you can do to change the minds of those two groups. There's a thrid group though that won't have their minds made up prior to seeing the list and I think the rest of this site goes a long way to convine those people that the list would be honest and unbiased recommendations.
just found a typo in eric ward's anchor text:
"Publcity" is missing it's left I.
Surely Eric wouldn't allow a mistake like that - Link Moses must know something that we don't and is simply awaiting the rush of traffic from having anchor text for the phrase publcity. Quick - everyone copy him!
Sadly, I not only allowed the mistake, I made the same mistake on many pages. It wasn't intended nor was I chasing searchers via an anchor text mispelling. For some reason I have a problem typing that word. It's weird how certain words are easier to typo than others. Anchor text IBLs are over-rated anyway...:)
Eric
I had a feeling that might be the case. The day that a product called teh comes out, my years of inability to spell the will have paid off....
PS - you did some work for us on a site called CatererSearch a while back - just to let you know that we finally have the staff to follow up the research you did for us - although we still haven't had any luck with DMOZ (which is of course over-rated as well!)
;)
Jeff & I noticed that the price ranges are being funny sometimes - we're working on fixing that - hopefully by tomorrow. Thanks for the catch on that (and the other errors). It's great to have so many people helping to improve the quality here :)
Ouch! I've been delisted!
Got to admit, I can count the number of referrals I've had through the previous page on my fingers, and the number of new clients I've gained on just one hand.
However, it's nice to be noticed, and I know I've thrown a few leads recommending Rand Fishkin where I don't feel I can deliver (heavy programming required, vertical I have little representation in, for example).
Still, it's nice to be considered, but my networking the past couple of years has been very poor which I guess leads to being easily overlooked.
I don't think I've ever been on the list (weep), but I don't have a problem with that. I don't show up, much less speak at conferences, I rarely post on the forums Rand specifically mentioned (I'm on HR all the time, not Cre8, SEW or SER), and my website is nothing special (although I'm doing a redesign).
Lately, the majority of the RFPs I've received have been passed on to someone else instead of directly responded to, so it's not as if I'm in need of a new source of leads. I'll survive.
It makes sense to me that if this list is of colleagues Rand personally knows, it should be limited to the people he really can vouch for, and since I've never shown him any of the sites I've worked on, I can't expect him to vouch for me.
How do I ensure that the firms on the list continue to give high quality experiences to their customers?
Setting up a list like this is kind of a responsibility. You'll need to be open to receiving reports, positive and negative, from clients and taking them into account. It's also a good idea to check up on the firms you've listed. At SeoPros, you get inspected every year, and believe me, being a member is not a guarantee that you'll be one next year.
What level of trust will visitors unfamiliar with SEOmoz place in the list? Will they believe it's truly unbiased?
If they're unfamiliar with SEOmoz, they have no reason to trust you or the list. That's up to them doing their fair share of research, both in determining whether they can trust your opinion and whether they have reason to agree with it.
But the list isn't unbiased, is it? You're listing people you've come to know, one way or another. While you're not making any guarantees about what they accomplish, you are vouching for them.
ADD ME ADD ME!!!(no don't... I don't qualify and no one wants to be a member of a club that has me as a member *winks*)Wow - that is a very wizzy list you have there. Quite impressive and I understand your reasons for filtering the way you have.Fantastic job - I'm sure you'll get lots of flak over it which should just reinforce what a formidable force you are in the market - not that something was wrong. I do realize people have some good points of criticism but it all has to start somewhere. Rome wasn't optimized in a day and all that...