I have a humble request. Fall has come, so I am back in school for the last year. I enrolled in a magazine writing class because I thought it would be fun. So far it has not been fun at all, but our first assignment is to profile a person, business, or organization. I lovingly think of SEOmoz as all three, in a way, and I knew right away that I wanted to do my article on it. One of the points of my article will be that SEOmoz is revolutionary in its accessibility. Prove me right by helping me to answer the following questions. I would be very grateful. We are also encouraged to submit these articles to various magazines, so you never know where your luminous words may end up (though I would definitely let everyone know if that becomes the case!). I’d love to hear from staff members and anyone, really.
- Why hasn’t SEOmoz taken the format of a forum or implemented one on their site?
- What will SEOmoz be like in ten years?
- Are SEO “newbies” encouraged to use the site? Will they always be?
- Is SEOmoz moving to pioneer a standardized SEO certification course? Or should SEO be an undergraduate degree soon? (There was some talk of this post-SEO Quiz)
- If everyone had to name a single element that makes SEOmoz so rewarding to read and participate in, what would that be?
Don’t feel limited to these questions. Feel free to use this space to reflect on all things SEOmoz. I appreciate everyone’s time.
1. On a purely personal note I find that forums tend to degenerate to the lowest form of txt spk (c u l8?) and, whilst the blog can go off-topic (but in a good way) I think of forums as places where it is merely a matter of time before someone calls someone else a Nazi. No forum on the Moz please.
3. Absolutely. The willingness to listen to the views of people with no rep in the industry, es demonstrated by YouMoz, is second to none. I can't see that changing , as it's one of the best things about the place.
5. Trying to get more MozPoints than the staffers!
;)
1/ Blog.
2/ Google buy SEOmoz.org in 2009. Sure!
3/ I try to use it! If you have quality content, newbies and experts will always be here.
4/ It´s a good topic. It´s necessary some kind of certification and more content. You listen a lot of contradictories things, and the "only" official content: Google Guidelines for Webmaster.
When someone ask for information people say: Why? , and - I readed it on a blog, I ever work in this way,- I know, it will be ok, sometimes is not the best answer.
Well I have been collecting points.. like a mad man... but the thumbs just arent coming.... I think I am going to submit about 50 articles in three days... lol just kidding. But I do like to see those who have contributed to the community and are voted for...
I do find some thumbs down confusing...
I've been thinking the same thing about the thumbs down. Some seem very odd...wish those that did give thumbs down would state why they did so. Maybe - or maybe we don't want to know. But anyway, yes, confusing!
Gave you a thumb just for being confused like me :)
I know. I'm still wondering how I got 9 thumbs down on this post. I guess people saw it as irrelevant to gaining SEO knowledge, but too bad. Don't read it. It was super short. If you didn't want to respond, you didn't have to. But I also got an overwhelmingly great response, so you take a little bad with a ton of good.
I don't know what could be more inviting to newbies than an entire separate blog section that allows anybody to contribute. :)
I was going to jot down a few of my thoughts... but found that most of the stuff I was going to say was summed-up in the first few paragraphs of Tom C's post: 11 (and a half) SEO Feeds to which All Beginners Should Subscribe
Cheers Sitemost, glad you liked it :-) it was pretty topical given this post wasn't it?
No probs - and yes it was nicely timed!
From a regular person...
1. Well, as a forum administrator I'd guess that the amount of maintenence required for a forum might have something to do with it. It's a great way to reach out and help people, but many site owners see it as an opportunity to promote themselves and nothing more. Thus, lots of spam, and people coming up with new ways to pretend they're not spamming (when they are), and lots of time and resources required to deal with the spammers. With a high profile site like this you'd have a lot of people trying to spam (which they already do with the blog, from what it sounds like). And with a forum you're opening it up a lot more - with a blog you control the topics for disucssion and guide the direction of the community. Plus, there are already a lot of SEO forums out there - they'd have to have a clear way to differentiate themselves here.
3. As somewhat of a newbie I'd say most of the time. I have felt that some members in the comments were being a little condescending sometimes, but never the SEOmoz staff. I do feel really hestiant about posting comments, especially since the thumbs up/thumbs down came in.
5. Just that the content is so relevant and thorough even to a regular webmaster (not a SEO expert). I find that some of the SEO sites too detailed or technical for my needs. I also really enjoy the writing style here.
If you're taking an informal poll - I'm against the forum idea.
I don't think SEOMoz would tolerate the quality of posts and threads on most webmaster related forums. So you'd probably have to moderate it pretty heavily.
SEOMoz is a thought-leader in that the blog usually discusses cutting-edge ideas. Its also a thought leader in that most of the leaders of the SEOMoz community (Cutts, Naylor, Gray, Boser, etc.) are regular readers.
So, in a way being here is like being in the front-row of the SEO-show.
Then you have YouMoz and the ability to add to the discussion with your own ideas. And if your ideas are good enough you could get promoted to the big show - the main SEOmoz Blog.
It is like a little SEO Audition.
I don't think anyone on the Internet can predict even two years out - let alone 10 years out.
If more and more people become committed to websites like Mahalo. Or a social site like Facebook adds a search function. Or the dozen of other things we can't even predict.
SEO may become obsolete and the whole game will be a race to provide the best and most complete answer to the questions people are asking.
Wouldn't that be nice?
This is so true. I believe a forum would heavily delute that.
As to the ones a non-staffer can answer, my two cents:
1. I would call SEOmoz a hybrid; although it's author-driven like a blog, allowing comments on comments creates a more forum-like, hierarchical structure. It seems like a good mix.
3. Yes. Although I've been in the internet industry for over a decade, I didn't really dig into SEO/SEM until I went to SES Chicago last December, and found the SEOmoz community to be very welcoming and forgiving of my newbie blunders. The community is also pretty forgiving of the fact that I talk too much :)
5. Given how protective SEMs can be of their "secrets", SEOmoz is a surprisingly open community of people that recognize the value of sharing knowledge.
Did Rand or I meet you at SES Chicago last year, Pete? We both attended...
I don't think so. I did see one of Rand's panel discussions, but was so dazzled by his luminous brilliance that I didn't dare approach him ;)
I am currently discussing the possibility of PubCon with some clients. If I'm in Vegas, I'll definitely be prowling for Mozzers.
Woohoo! Vegas!
I'm local, so I know this is one event I'll be getting to. Hope to meet you there.
Dr. Pete at PubCon would be awesome!!! You have to go!
It's like professional drivers on a closed course. Except, anyone can join and participate. You're just not going to find "sponsor my theme" threads here.
Blog posts (written, edited and managed by SEOmoz staff) guide the initial discussion. The life that discussion takes from there is mostly left to the readers who comment.
An agency.
Yes. Members and Mozzers alike are welcoming and supportive of newcomers. Just don't come in here and say that SEOs are full of bullshit or you'll get mobbed.
I would love a standardized certification exam. I think that having a multi-effort consortium with firms like Bruce Clay and the DMA would make for a stronger offering.
Actually, two elements: Jane and Rebecca.
But if that answer doesn't work for you, then how about the fact that the entire SEOmoz community has a goal to further the growth, education, and understanding of the SEM industry. When you participate with SEOmoz, you feel that you're part of an exciting movement that influences the course of the industry.
So, those are my official answers. Now I'll go and read everyone elses and see how similar my opinion is to others or if I'm completely out in right field here.
We make SEOmoz rewarding? Aw, shucks...
LOL - of course!
Is being female in a mostly male dominated field really all that rough? ;)
1. I think that a blog is much better than forums. In some ways they are very similiar. Someone post and others reply. However, with forum topics can get so spread out and it is hard to draw focus on the topic at hand.
With a blog it is easier to get a wide variety of feedback. Also here we have the Q&A section which provides premium members with focused attention to detailed questions from seasoned SEOs. No forum could replace Q&A. Many forum post get off topic or answered by someone who has no idea what they are talking about.
2. I think in ten years it will be very similiar to now, but with more content and a more diverse crowd from beginners to professionals.
3. I do not think that SEOmoz really labels you in the first place. They offer great resources and it is up to you to use them. As long as people are curious about learning SEO they will always be welcome.
4. I can not speak on this one, but that would be nice. It is always nice to learn something from soneone who has been there versus learning it yourself.
5. Great Members
1. There are already some good SEO forums (Cre8asite, etc.) so I think SEOmoz felt that their efforts were better spent on blogging. I agree with everyone here - forums are a lot of work, and can be frustrating to navigate, so I think this was a good move.
2. Wow, ten years. That's like a century in the tech world. My guess is that SEOmoz will have been purchased and then absorbed by a larger company by that time, and Rand will be off creating something else new and cutting-edge - whatever "new and cutting-edge" is in ten years.
3. Yes and yes. No one is ever made fun of for lack of knowledge. Questions are answered patiently and helpfully.
4. Hmm, this would be cool. I don't know if that's where SEOmoz is going, though. The focus seems to be on providing content that people can use as needed (or leave behind if they don't need it), rather than standardizing it in some kind of course.
5. The reason I kept coming back here when I first found SEOmoz was that the community is always open to new participants. At some forums and blogs, if you're not one of the "in" people, no one listens to what you have to say or responds to you. That's not the case here - everyone is encouraged to participate, and everyone is treated with respect.
Interesting post to promote to the main blog, Rebecca :)
I'll take a stab, too:
Love to hear what others think, of course.
I wanted to hear what people had to say and figured this post would get much better visibility/comments on the main blog. Plus, I wrote a 15-page research paper about SEOmoz for a class when I was a senior in college, so I thought I'd give the author as much help as she could get to write hers. :)
I knew I must have touched your heart, Rebecca. :)
This is beyond helpful and I can't wait to tell all my friends (who have been hearing about SEOmoz every day since I've joined) about this great opportunity. I'm so excited to do this article now and it makes a boring class so much easier to bear knowing that I'm writing about something I care about.
This is exactly what I mean i love about SEOmoz - people take initiative and pride in being a member, and SEOmoz makes every effort at full participation!!!
Keep it up guys...
edit:horrendous spelling mistakes..
I'm not too active in any forums, call me a lurker. But I feel like SEOMoz is pretty accessible as is. I'd be afraid that adding a forum would lead to a fracture in the community as well as more lower quality content.
If someone wants to stand up and be heard, they've got YouMoz. That's provided they can polish what they've got to say to get past Rebecca, and I (as a lurker) prefer it that way.
Yet we're still using a mostly text-based web. Not quite the semantic-web that Tim was imagining by now, although we are getting closer now than we were then. Everything comes down to bits.
Seriously? This would be fantastic! Your brand already carries a lot of creditbility and becoming "SEOmoz certified" would definitely have a lot of appeal that I would want on my resume. Also, see my comments below about this.
Wha? Certificate program maybe?? Holding breath for next 6-12 months. I think that would be amazing...especially coming from seomoz!
I am answering #5... I really like the enormous diversity of people who come here... first you have SEOMoz staff who start great discussions and after that you can hear a whole range of people shout out their ideas - some of them Big Guns in the SEO world. It's awesome the depth and breadth of experience that is represented here.
Why does not anyone think that in the next ten years, SEOmoz will be out of the Google's index? haha, just joking.
Have nice weekend.
I think I am only qualified to answer #3 and #5. As a newbie, I felt comfortable the minute i stumbled on to seomoz and immediately joined as a premium member. I think newbies are encouraged to use the site as much as they feel comfortable doing. It is intimidating to a new person only understanding maybe 40%, but that's how you learn.
One single element that makes seomoz so rewarding to read for me would be; the variety of topics covered, the comments that follow that sometimes help to explain it further and the ease of access to get something explained.
I just wanted to second what you said about feeling comfortable once you stumbled on the site. That's one of my favorite things about seomoz. The mozziness of it all :) Everyone is quite forgiving of mistakes and always willing to help you out!
#3 I'm a newbie and I think SEOMoz is very friendly and helpful to those of us who are just starting to understand the world of search. Although I don't think we are encouraged to contribute to the site, which I like. I would be annoyed if I had to sift through newbie assumptions to find useful information given by SEO Pros.
1) I don't think SEOmoz should implement a forum. The thing i like about SEOmoz is it's structured and it's focused on quality articles and posts. By adding a forum I think it'll just increase the noise and not increase the signal. If you have specific questions, find a relevant post and ask the question in the comments or submit a Q&A. Between the main blog, youmoz and the Q&A I really don't think one is necessary.
2) In 10 years I imagine SEOmoz will have lost the SEO part and will be assimilated into Google. The world will no longer have computers, we'll just think of information and it will be effortlessely transmitted to our eyeballs. The 'moz' will be a small sub-program running on the google mainframe which ensures there's still some comedy results transmitted occasionaly. Sometimes you'll think of a request and at the back of your mind you can't help imagining a soft 'snap!' echoing around your brain.
Either that or ask will have taken over the search space and SEOmoz will be red.
3) I like to encourage SEO newbies to use the site - see my latest youmoz post!! I think they always will be. To be brutal, that's where money comes from so they will always need to be catered for.
4) Wouldn't surprise me one bit (although I'd be surprised if SEOmoz were the ones to make it official - I think others in the community will make it official)
5) The awesomeness. And the moz.
I have completely dropped participating in forums. Blogs have completely replaced them for education and networking for me. YouMoz does a nice job of letting anyone start conversations so if you ask me a forum is not needed, or in my case wanted. Forums are filled with junk. I don't like wading through it all to get to the good info.
1. I think the contrast between a forum and a blog is a bit of a semantic exercise for this site since it has the Q&A, Youmoz, and the Staff Blog, although in a forum you'll often run into two things, moderators directing queries from anyone, and the oft posted reply to "Search the forum for your answer." SEOmoz thrives off of different people coming by at different points in their educational curve. It also has a bit more focus by qualifying its content.
2. Ten years? Geesh. We'll probably download it straight to our brains.
3. I think this is a newbie friendly site. Compared to much of the other sector, you're going to have to really dig for answers, where as here you'll find the tools you need, support from others, and in general an open door. The 'man behind the curtain' is especially true for most of the agencies that provide SEO services. For them, it's not in their interest to explain things.
4. The only standardization that I've seen take traction is that doled out by the Search Engines themselves, and that's at their benefit and only in regards to PPC. I think a course could be created however as many of the optimization efforts required on a site are technical in nature. Understanding DNS, IIS, server-side redirects, CSS, and other web languages and how they mesh with spiders is useful, quantifiable information. If SEOmoz does create a search engine at it's heart will be the SEOmoz spider. It'll be interesting to see how that little guy takes on moz-like qualities: user-friendly, informative, willing to help...
5. I think the rewards of the blog are in the openness of the community. If you're helpful and insightful your views get noticed and, like EGOL mentioned, by an audience with breadth and depth. Also, if you attend the seminar(s) you get to be the opening act for foreign dignitaries, like the President of Zambia. (Inside joke.) Oh, and Rand, I nailed the geography quiz.
Lol - I wrote my answer before I'd read yours Chuck! Our answers to no 2 are v similar (although I expanded a little!)
1. Seems cleaner this way - I haven't missed a forum. the blog is succint as it is.
2. SEOmoz will have evolved with the methodology - as acceptance grows, so will the audience.
3. SEOmoz was the first site that made any sense to me on the subject. It is clear without being condescending. I'm still a newbie and I consider this to be my best SEO resource.
4. The rules keep changing so fast a recertification may be necessary every year.
5. Down to earth, non-techie advise on the subject. You all seem like real people to me.
1. I dont like forums - my participation levels are very low on them becuse I find the threds irritating to follow, and to be honest, they do encourage a large number of people to reduce the quality of the information - "comments" by their very nature encourage people to think about what they ar saying.
2. I would like t beileve that seo moz would in 10 years time maintain their level of interaction with members and help in making SEO an interesting field as its doing now - and skkep attracting the quality of members and participation that it does at the moment. But i do hope that they will evolve the member participation and make this a long term community...
3. Newbies participation: this is a bit difficult to say - the fact that the site is open to comments ect definately is a good thing - the offer of premium memember ship for participation is another good incentive - but as you can see, there are 1000's of lurkers on the site (there are over 18000 subscribers to the feed) so it depends...
4. Rand says it all in his comment above..
5. The feel of community within such a competitive and controversial field that is SEO.
Gah! I knew I was forgetting something.
1. I personally feel that using blog comments says 'our community is important enough to us to publish to the world'. It shows a kind of pride in your community. A forum feels like content is hidden, that you have to dig around for it in the darkness. It doesnt paint the right picture for me
3. definately and definately. If I ever talk to an SEO n00b I point them here for resources.
5. The transparency of it all also knowing that you can come here and dissagree and get an intelligent discussion
I know it's only a blog post and all, but isn't this a bit of an excercise in formulating leading questions?
SEOmoz is already so open about everything from hiring practices to their VC investment decisions that it's kind of hard to think of what they haven't shared.
As a newbie, I've always felt welcome here.
I agree with Floppy. Blogs are much better than forums. But the only problem i see is Spam.
Rand - how do you battle spam that comes to your blogs.
I 100% agree. As we are predominanatly a web design business we are always launching "new" websites.
Of course optimisation is at the forefront of our minds at the build stage but the majority of the time we recommend that the client waits a month or so until the new site has propagated.
This way we can monitor a sites natural strengths and weaknesses and sculpt an SEO campaign around them while ensuring we dont waste often limited resources in areas they were always going to perform well in.
If any work is done before launch it tends to be at a consultation level, upskilling and educating the webmasters during content upload etc.
I must admit that I am seriously thinking about restructuring our SEO packages to put much more emphasis on the one off activity . If that is done correctly then often all that is required is gentle guidance from month to month. After all if they write engaging, original content the links come naturally right?
In reply to no.4, I would say SEO as an undergraduate degree is intriguing, but is still too niche to base an entire degree program around.
I think it would be an excellent 1-2 semester course, and believe that is necessary for anybody with regards to web design, and indeed in the advertising and marketing fields.
Certification is a more realistic goal(and more lucrative, from a capitalistic point of view). Why? Simply because, every time we get an idea of what they want, SE's flip the script on us. This requires certification that teaches the new methods.
At this point, SEO education is done by SEO bloggers and the communities that have grown up around them. Most of us are self/community educated in the art/science/insanity that is SEO.
I don't think that will change, as the web is too dynamic to allow for a static education.
I agree with you on this. I would be extremely leery (sp?) of any type of formal degree in SEO just based on the fact that things are always changing so quickly. In order to achieve accreditation there has to be some kind of standard and it seems that even the standards in SEO aren't standard for very long.
I would be extremely interested in some kind of certificate/certification training though as that isn't as big of a time investment and the curriculum would be easier to update and allow maintenance of the relevancy.
I think a forum would just be one more thing to moderate and would generate more work than it is worth. The site seems to be doing just fine without a forum. Plus, most forums are chaotic and sometimes information is hard to find. Although, I bet if a forum was included, it would be well thought out and organized.
This site definitely helped me when I started with SEO and still helps me now so I think it is great for all audiences. I have been a silent observer until now, but I hope to participate more.
I hope the site is here for years to come whatever format it may be in...
Two quick thoughts:
Compared to other sites, SEOmoz is a very friendly atmosphere for relative SEO newbs such as myslef. It's refreshing.
And good luck if you go to get your article published! I've worked as an editor in the mag trade for over ten years though my forte is the outdoors industry.
#3 - i think seomoz definitely encourages "newbies" to participate. i know this was the 1st blog i came to when i first started. the thing is, i've been noticing that new people come in regularly and then i stop seeing some of the older regulars as much. so it maybe that it's actually somewhat geared more towards newbies.
#5 - for me it's mostly the moz part. but i of course enjoy the seo part too. and also rand's writing style, entertaining yet informational.
Thinking back on the forum... we think of the web as evolving dont we?
I think some time ago in my research on 2.0 I came across a statement that forums were 1.0 and blogs/comments/network groups were elements of 2.0... i think it was on Tim O' Reily's blog...
I can't find that reference (although I know what you mean). He compares blogging to having a personal site.
Not sure why I can't do single line spacing, but there you go!
I know - I cant find it either ;-(
But I think it was in one of his illustrations... if I do, I will add it here at some point - useful for future readers of the thread...
Gr8 discussion... I personally think that u guys r not good but gr8!
yeh, i mean it...FORUM, althiugh is a good idea but i think will lower the quality discussion.I opt for SEOMOZ's blog than any other forum. A forum is like "TOO MANY COOKS SPOIL THE MEAL". So plz carry on with the good work u r doing :)
2 quick questions...
Why does the teaser text for this blog post say "Alright. This is a dual-purposed post: I have an interesting SEO point to make and then I have a humble request." ... and then the full post only contains the request?
Why is the teaser different when I am not logged in (shows dual above) vs when I am logged in (doesnt show dual from above)
:)
Oscar.
Oops, sorry about that. Jac originally lumped this post in with another post, and I wanted to split them into two because I wanted to keep her other post on YOUmoz and put this one on the main blog. I forgot to change the teaser snippet, but I fixed it now.