With all the changes we've seen in the field of SEO in recent years, we need to think differently about how we pitch our work to others. If we don't, we run the risk of creating unreal expectations and disappointing our clients and companies. In today's Whiteboard Friday, Rand explains how to set expectations that will lead to excitement without the subsequent let-down.
For reference, here's a still of this week's whiteboard!
Video transcription
Howdy, Moz fans, and welcome to another edition of Whiteboard Friday. This week we're going to chat a little bit about the expectations that SEOs create and sometimes falsely create. It's not always our fault, but it is always our responsibility to fix the expectations that we create with our teams, our managers, our executives, and, if we're consultants, with our clients.
So here's the problem. This is a conversation that I see happen a lot of the time. Here's our friendly SEO guy over here, and he's telling his client, "Hey, if we can rank on page 1 for even 10% of all these terms that I've selected, we're going to drive a 500% increase in leads."
Here's the client over here, and she's thinking to herself, "That sounds amazing. 500% increase in leads, that's going to do wonderful things for my business. So let's invest in SEO. This is going to be great. We only have to get 10% of these keywords on there. I don't know anything about SEO, but that sounds totally possible." Six months later, after all sort of stymieing and challenging problems, here she is going, "You told me we'd increase our leads by 500%!"
There's the SEO saying, "Well yeah, but we have to get the rankings first, and we haven't done that yet. I said we'd get the leads once we got the rankings."
This kind of expectation and many others like it are a huge challenge. It is the case that modern SEO takes a lot of time to show results. Modern content marketing works the same way. You're not going to start producing blog posts or interactive content or big content pieces and 3 months from now go, "Well, we made 50 new content pieces, and thus our traffic has tripled."
That's not how it works. The problem here is that SEO just doesn't look like this anymore. It did, kind of, at one point. It really did.
We used to engage in an SEO contract. We'd make some changes to the existing pages, do some keyword targeting, some optimization, maybe fix things up that weren't SEO friendly on the site, get our link structure in order. Great. Do a little bit of link building to the right kinds of pages that we need on our site from the right kind of places. We'd get those rankings. Now we can easily prove the value of the search traffic that's coming through by looking at the keyword referrals in our analytics report, because keyword traffic is showing.
This process has been broken over the last five, six, seven years. But expectations have not caught up to where we are today. Modern SEO nowadays is really like this. You engage in that SEO contract, and then the SEO's job is to be much more than an SEO, because there are so many factors that influence modern search rankings and modern search algorithms that really a great SEO, in order to have impact, has to go, "All right, now we're going to start the audit."
The audit isn't going to look at which pages do you have on the site and what keywords do you want to match up and which ones do we need to fix, or just link structure or even things like schema. Well, let's look at the content and the user experience and the branding and the PR, and we'll check out your accessibility and speed and keyword targeting. We'll do some competitive analysis, etc. Dozens of things that we're going to potentially look at because all of them can impact SEO.
Yikes! Then, we're not done. We're going to determine which investments that we could possibly make into all of these things, almost all of which probably need some form of fixing. Some are more broken than others. Some we have an actual team that could go and fix them. Some of those teams have bandwidth and don't. Some of those projects have executives who will approve them or not. We're going to figure out which ones are possible, which ones are most likely to be done and actually drive ROI. Then we're going to work across teams and executives and people to get all those different things done, because one human being can't handle all of them unless we're talking about a very, very tiny site.
Then we're going to need to bolster a wide range of offsite signals, all of the things that we've talked about historically on Whiteboard Friday, everything from actual links to things around engagement to social media signals that correlate with those to PR and branding and voice and coverage.
Now, after months of waiting, if we've improved the right things, we'll start to see creeping up our rankings, and we'll be able to measure that from the traffic that pages receive. But we won't be able to say, "Well, specifically this page now ranks higher for this keyword, and that keyword now sends us this amount of traffic," because keyword not provided is taking away that data, making it very, very hard to see the value of visitors directly from search. That's very frustrating
This is the new SEO process. You might be asking yourself, "Given these immense challenges, who in the world is even going to invest in SEO anymore?" The answer is, well, people who for the last decade have made a fortune or made a living on SEO, people who are aware of the power that SEO can drive, people who are aware of the fact that search continues to grow massively, that the channel is still hugely valuable, that it drives direct revenue and value in far greater quantity than social media by itself or content marketing by itself without SEO as a channel. The people who are going to invest successfully, though, are those whose expectations are properly set.
Everybody else is going to get somewhere in here, and they're going to give up. They're going to fire their SEO. You know what one of the things that really nags at me is? Ruth Burr mentioned this on Twitter the other day. Ruth said, "When your plumber fails to fix your pipes, you don't assume that plumbing is a dead industry that no one should ever invest in. But when your SEO fails to get you rankings or traffic that you can measure, you assume all SEO is dead and all SEO is bad."
That sucks. That's a hard reality to live in, but it's the one that we do live in.
I do have a solution though, and the solution isn't just showing how this process works versus how old-school SEO works. It's to craft a timeline, an expectation timeline.
When you're signing a contract or when you're pitching a project, or when you're talking about, "Hey, this is what were going to do for SEO," try showing a timeline of the expectations. Instead of saying, "If we can rank on page one," say, "If we can complete our audit and fix the things we determine that need to be fixed and prioritize those fixes in the order we think they are, then we can make the right kinds of content investments, and then we can get the amplification and offsite signals that we need starting to appear and grow our engagement. Then we can expect great SEO results." Each one of these is contingent on the last one.
So six months later, your boss, your manger, or your client is going to say, "Hey, how did those content investments go?" You can say, "Well look, here's the content we've created, and this is how it's performing, and this is what we're going to do to change those performances." The expectation won't be, "Hey, you promised me great SEO." The promise was we're going to make these fixes, which we did, and we're going to complete that audit, which we did. Now we're working on these content investments, and here's how that's going. Then we're going to work on this, and then we're going to work on that.
This is a great way to show expectations and to create the right kind of mindset in people who are going to be investing in SEO. It's also a great way not to get yourself into hot water when you don't get that 500% increase 3 months or 6 months after you said we're going to start the SEO process.
All right everyone, I'd love to hear from you in the comments. Look forward to chatting it up and having a discussion about modern SEO and old-school SEO and expectations that clients and managers have got.
We will see you again, next week, for another edition of Whiteboard Friday. Take care.
If there was a WBF to watch and re-watch, this was it. Well said Rand :)
100% agree with "It's always the responsibility of the SEO to fix expectations with teams, stakeholders and clients" - but, this is where many SEO's come unstuck. Loved the time-line too - clients need to know what's next and what resources they have to commit to online projects.
What follows is a little mini-post to everyone ;)
1) Many SEO's are too willing to agree with clients expectations, who themselves (frankly) know little to nothing about SEO.
This isn't helped by major news outlets posting drivel just to get clicks - and we've all seen those posts and we've all face-palmed when they get shared a million times. Huge mis-information in 95% of cases.
With a mass obsession with knocking SEO to get clicks, our job becomes 10x harder in educating them on what it is and what is really possible. Unless we understand their "understanding" to start with, we'll shoot ourselves (and our credibility) in the foot during the relationship, because you should have seen it coming..
2) We need to develop some back-bone in learning to say "No, that isn't possible" or "No, your expectations are incorrect". PS - Saying "No" doesn't kill anyone. In fact, if often liberates us. Try it today ;)
3) Many (still) don't focus on a clients' business objectives and goals - crazy as that may sound. How on earth can we set realistic expectations without first knowing their business model, current sales or leads, processes, growth plans, service or product demand limitations (can they handle big growth from online lead generation?).
Besides, most company owners and directors couldn't care less about traffic - instead (rightly so) they care about:
If SEO's got even 50% of the above information by pre-qualifying needs and listening, they'd know whether or not they're heading for trouble if what they know is possible vs what the client expects is planets apart. Think about this for a second..
Which leads me nicely onto..
4) Conversions. I'll break this carefully.. if a site looks shite, no matter how much "SEO" or web marketing "stuff" is done, the client won't see an increase in leads, sales, conversions or sign-ups etc because visitors will arrive, likely throw up and go again..
Tough, I know. But how many of us agree to client expectations without ever reviewing their site's UX? I bet there's tons..
SEO helps new potential clients find a brand, but it doesn't make a person click on the "buy now" or "call me" button. Sorry, that's usability, persona-driven marketing and A/B testing.
Bottom line? If a client want's more [add business need, goal or objective here], without putting as much focus on improving user experience, their goals (and your credibility) is dead in the water.
Back to education.. some clients think SEO and UX are all "web stuff". Did you find that out in your pre-qual call or meeting? You get my point..
5) Semantics. Yes, boys & girls, either make it your job to have 2 sleepless nights learning and understanding this mega important subject, or move aside for someone who does know, to take your lunch and help your client.
Sure tough words. But the choice of transitioning or evolving is no longer. Improve what you know, or you'll be left behind!
What's semantics got to do with client expectations? Everything! If you, as an SEO, don't understand semantics, you're conning your client when you set expectations. Why? Knowing how search engines have transitioned themselves is your responsibility. And educating them on what they need is yours too.
And semantics and entities (connections) are what will take lunch from your client's competitor and make your client full..
6) This is one of Rand's best ever posts - https://moz.com/rand/the-t-shaped-web-marketer/. If you haven't yet read it, your evening is now sorted..
Honestly people, I'm not being harsh or arrogant, I'm just telling you straight, and not enough in our industry do that IMO.
Go conquer ;)
This post is so relatable that the final whiteboard is actually pretty hilarious. The evolution of "SEO" into actual marketing is great but only if people like us are actually working toward the business goals and setting proper expectations as you stated, Tony. And I couldn't agree more with your conversion point, there are so many business owners who are proud of their website design that they got way overcharged on and isn't functional or able to be conversion optimized and you have to be able to tell them "Hey your website is terrible and we can drive traffic to it all day, but it still isn't going to convert.". People are so scared to tell the truth!
Hey Joseph, your last comment about people being scared to tell the truth is so true.
I call it "tough love".
Being honest is the most important part of our "due diligence" pre-qualifying activity and I've earned the right to work with some clients by telling them things about their website that others were unwilling to tell them.
Honesty requires conviction and a willingness to help the client understand "why".
But we must be respectful and show integrity in how we impart our insight. We don't want to offend them and it's a whole lot better to guide them to their own conclusion, which is where having a consultancy approach is key :)
Precisely! This consultancy approach was key to closing almost 100% of our client meetings with a contract at my last agency. Honesty really is the best policy.
Good points, but number 2 might not be something a new firm can afford. If a client reaches out to several firms and you are telling the client something is not possible, he/she will most likely pick the firm that says it is. And in my experience enough firms will tell the client what he/she wants to hear. That's a problem for a new firm, and potentially for established ones as well.
You can of course wait long enough until you deliver the realistic perspective to the client. That might give you enough time to convince the client of your authority in the field, but it's still no guarantee. Picking the middle road (whatever that is) might be the best options for a new firm.
Hey Fredrik, thanks for commenting.
#2 is a tough one and it's where setting the right expectations is an absolute must.
My firm was new once too and I took on some clients at the outset that wanted the earth yesterday! I soon found out that winning the wrong type of business affected my morale, attitude and mentality, not to mention the extra hours I put in to try and help them achieve (often impossible) goals. This also had a negative effect on my health, through the stress it caused.
Sure, every new firm wants to win clients - it's how businesses grow! But when a structure for pre-qualifying clients (in and out) is used, firms will attract the right type of clients quicker, simply because their pre-qualifying approach is geared towards a certain type of client (and whatever the skillsets of the firm can add excellent value with).
Re your scenario: if a co reaches out to several firms, I'd veer on the side of caution. Firstly, my guess is that they might be using "cost" as a main criteria (the tendering model).
When I encounter a tendering model (I always ask for clarification on this), I try to find an untapped opportunity where my co can add incredible value to their business, that no-one else would have. This immediately puts my co in a category all on it's own (read "Solution Selling" by Michael T Bosworth).
If, having unearthed this opportunity, I discuss the benefits to them using a consultative approach, which often requires their feedback and input, I'm already working with them on adding true value, often while competitors are frantically trying to "do a quote".
The bottom line is to remember that you can create a relationship with a potential client that's like no other they have. The nearer to the core (internal influencers, stakeholders etc) you become, the more they begin to see you / your co as a trusted advisor, again while competitors are focusing on price (not value).
The problem with "waiting enough time" is that you're allowing your competitors to create relationships with your potential client that may, in time, become impenetrable.
My mantra is "Make it unthinkable for the potential client to consider a competitor" - and this has helped me win (rescue?) clients from the shoddy practices of some pretty big competitors.
Hope that helps? :)
Hello Tony,
Thank you for taking your time to dig further into this. I do agree with you and giving a customer false positive hopes is something that will hurt the business itself. It's probably easier to work customers who have already failed to achieve "the earth yesterday" using the cheapest option. They are much more likely to listen to reason and hopefully understand the time it could take.
I'm sure the subject would fit perfectly into a WBF itself. It's defenitely an interesting subject with plenty of angles to cover :)
Pleasure Fredrik & absolutely :)
Well said!
Thanks. I hope it inspires people to achieve some great things :)
Dear Tony,
great response and great insights from you as well as Rand's. However I do have something on my mind I want to point out. I have several clients but one of them is a bit harder then the others. We rebuild his website and focused more on specific products in stead of everything in his business. This was his decision but I supported him in this. After rebuilding the website we could focus the work more on less material. So we made sure we earned more links by making content known to others, we optimized the pages etc etc etc.
However, when looking at UX I totally disagree with him. I told him what works (based on researches and everything while citing the resources as well) and what does not work but he keeps insisting doing something I don't support (for instance black background with white text and huge amounts of spacing between headlines and the following text). He made up his mind about this based on what worked back in the 1980's in marketing land in stead of looking at what works using internet marketing. He is also convinced that using capitals in the middle of a sentence where it's not needed expresses the importance of something. I totally disagree with that and see it more or less as a grammer fail.
The most frustrating part however is that everything that goes wrong or south is the fault of the website and my work (in his eyes). I made sure he understood what I would be doing, in what order stuff would be done etc. Presented it to him and he had no questions what so ever. But now when orders fall back or stay away all together he says the site is not optimized, the fact he ranks no. 2 in stead of 1 is to blame for the lack of orders, his email gets intercepted etc etc etc. But, when you criticize his product it's never his fault. How would you handle such a situation?
I've tried a lot of thing. I made clear what I would be doing, I've showed him results from analytics that his traffic increased a little (about 200-500 visitors per month) while the site has been cut in half (quantity of pages due to the specialization). So actually traffic grew extensively. But when I show him this he just says: "My bottomline is lower then last year, what is going on with the site?".
I understand what you are saying with focussing on goals and business model but I don't control the people that contact him and do not order or don't even fill out the contact form.
Sidenote: In his industry there are a lot of competitors some that claim to sell the same at half the price (while in fact it's not the same).
How would you handle this, or go forward from here? Love to hear your insights and everyone else's.
Jarno
Thanks Jarno, I appreciate you reaching out for some feedback.
If I can be honest, it sounds like those responsible in your firm for pre-qualifying clients unfortunately let him slip through the net. See my preso earlier in the year on pre-qualifying and winning new clients – this “mindset” also applies to existing clients. Feel free to share within your co and with those who do the pre-qualifying ;)
Sure, SEO can get a site ranked, but if the site shouts out “I’m a relic from the stone age”, potential buyers will be put off and orders will suffer.
He’s insisting on you doing things his way, yet blames you when his mandatory requirement doesn’t pay off. You sound exasperated buddy and this seems like a classic case of a client thinking that SEO alone will get results.
He also seems to have a "master / slave” mentality and doesn't have (from what you've said) a good "foundational" understanding of SEO and web marketing in general. He may also be getting pressure from above to produce results, which unfortunately he’s releasing on you.
If he’s not open to your UX recommendations, he might not be open to receiving some training on SEO & UX (which will help sort out his unrealistic expectations). But it might be worth a try and a new approach you could make.
The question is, is the amount he pays for your service worth the effect it’s having on your mindset, your creativity and your co’s reputation (and ultimately their creativity too)? It sounds like you’re doing everything you can to help him / his co achieve success, so would your passion and creativity be better invested working with a “best-fit” client who has a “master / master” mentality (equal respect, integrity etc)? I bet it would.
Let me know if this helps or if you need further clarification.
Tony,
sorry for the late response. Wanted to get to it but been busy (with other clients). I'm going to read the post you suggested. Maybe that will help out some. Sadly it was me who let the client slip through the net but at the time he became my client I was not so fortunate to choose my clients :D
At this point he does very little (in revenue at my company) and in case he asks me things I'll do some work but not that much. I'm kinda hoping with some new tactics and new ideas for 2015 to get him to do some more this year. But then on my terms.
I will start by going through the slides you suggested, using the tools on the current site that Brian suggested (below) and maybe then I'll be able to set a pace with him on my timeline and on my terms.
Thank you for your kind words. If I need further help with some things, can I contact you for your point of view on things?
Regards
Jarno
Jarno,
I think it's time to take more of a CRO approach with this client. Using Unbounce or Optimizely is what I'm thinking is the next step to take here. This is so he won't be able to ever again deny that his 1980s marketing practices are dead. Explain the test(s) to him, but not necessarily the "why" of the testing, as it may offend his ego. Just tell him you're looking for the holes in the dam. Let the test(s) run unaltered for no less than your set amount of traffic, check data as soon as you like, but know that it'll be more reliable after two weeks. As with anything else, with multivariate testing, you'll have to come up with your own processes. It's is not perfect and will most likely have different test time spans to use in order to provide proof. For each and every multivariate test, you'll have to determine those.
Right now, I see this as the best plan for you. Once your methods are proven, if the client's thoughts and processes are based in any kind of logic, and after your methods are proven over his, you should enjoy more leadway with him as well as more trust in your authority.
Good Luck,
Brian
Brian,
Thanks a lot for your response. The funny thing is that I've proven some of the things I was saying some years ago. We were looking at different versions of pages that would call more to take action by the visitors. I implemented several A/B tests with Google's tool for that. After 1 month, 2 months and 3 months I updated him with the stats. Version A was his version, B was mine. For several pages B scored all the leads and A got nothing. My conclusion was, my version is proven. His conclusion was this:
"As it just so happens the people truly interested in my product just happened to come across your version and not mine, this proves nothing".
See my point?
I will use the tools your suggesting. Maybe this will prove some things to him that he this times might just think: WAIT.. THAT'S GREAT.
Thanks again Brian. Can I contact you if I have any questions about the tools or for further assistance?
Regards
Jarno
Jarno,
That's a tough spot to be in. Your client is in denial, with some ego figured in as well. I'm not familiar with any Google tool that does A/B testing. If you're using Google Analytics for that, I've found that's a much more cumbersome approach than using the tools I am now, just in the automatic display of one version of a website over another alone. Using this multivariate method would immediately ruin his argument:
"As it just so happens the people truly interested in my product just happened to come across your version and not mine, this proves nothing."
So, perhaps you can see the basic functions in the tools I've recommended are going to provide better data, automatically. While they are great for A/B testing, I really think that conducting a multivariate test is still the best move here. The data that shows him how many people have seen his version of the website vs. yours, and which version converted more people, generated more leads or met more of the goals of the site. I'm thinking (hoping) this would carry a fair amount of weight with him as long as he knows what he's looking at in the results. You may have to do some explaining at that point.
I wish you luck with this Jarno and yes, you may contact me with additional questions etc. I know what it's like to face situations like this with difficult clients.
Take care,
Brian
Jarno, thanks for comments. Can you elaborate on what you mean by 'Semantics'? Are you referring to 'Semantic SEO' (like this) or in a more general sense, as in the words we use to describe SEO proceses?
Michael,
As far as Semantics go it's more to describe the SEO proceses as to Semantic SEO. The latter I've never referred to or used (for as far as the article you are referring to is know to me..).
Hope you understand what i'm getting at.
Regards
Jarno
Tony honestly what percentage of people do you believe do not understand Semantics that are currently calling themselves SEO's?
I hope it's not very many but if it is I would be surprised. If anyone wants to learn more about Semantics
https://www.semantics.cc/ & https://www.semantic-web.at/marketscan
Will link to some great resources that you can start checking out and hopefully you will use this to help your career.
Hey Rand
The thing is the job of the modern SEO has just changed so much and in most cases what folks are looking for is not simply 'better SEO' but ultimately more business (or whatever goal they are chasing). It then naturally follows that the solution to that problem is a many headed beast and the SEO's implementing these solutions also have to have a wide array of skills. It also follows as with any marketing that it is going to take time to understand what works and get results.
The modern SEO has to wear so many hats - we have to help with everything from the technical nuts and bolts through to good old fashioned marketing. Usability, technical issues, mobile, content, conversion, paid search, social media advertising, reputation, reviews, analytics, measurement and just so much more.
I honestly can't remember that last pure SEO job we picked up and now it almost always ends up that the best solution often includes organic / local search but now that is just part of a much bigger picture covering other areas to optimise the businesses digital presence and not just rank better for x, y or z.
The more we move away from narrow expectations regarding what miracles SEO will provide and the more we become marketers first who operate in this digital landscape the better - setting realistic expectations for what can or can't be achieved is a really important part of that if you want to build a long term relationship with your client which is always where as marketers we can do our best work.
Still, there are a lot of companies out there who are still selling that SEO snake oil dream so my realistic pitch is often butting up against the sunshine and rainbows pitch of other companies. There will always be those who promise that their SEO will be end to all of the clients problems (when in many cases it could just be the beginning). We just prefer not to be one of those let down merchants.
Cheers
Marcus
Totally agree Marcus - if by "pure SEO" you mean the "old school" SEO I described in the video (just keywords, links, crawl, and rankings), is no longer good enough to have real impact in a lot of situations. It's incumbent on our industry to alter the perception of those outside it so we can all effectively have the tools and resources to do our jobs.
Yep, we can no longer kick it old school! New school all the way. Happy Friday.
Yes Mr. Marcus that is correct .. Old school SEO not working at all. But I have seen many SEO companies particularly in India that are still following same techniques and even Google gives them the result. As per my opinion even Google doesn't know which site is Good and which is bad. Sometime I have to use DuckDuckGo to find relevant link.
Just wanted to say this is by far, my favourite WBF for some time!
Aside from the badass hair and moustache, the discussion is something I come across every day. Clear goals are great, and I've noticed a difference in the 3-5 years I've been working in the real world. It's scary how many resources still pigeon hole the industry in terms of social/PR/PPC/'traditional' SEO, and not as digital marketing, which I think is a big weakness.
The sooner people become multi-disciplined the better in my opinion, especially as the way SERP rankings are evolving.
Hi Rand, thanks for this, I really enjoyed the "plumber" analogy and the sad thing is that it is true. I spend endless time trying to defend my industry. It ticks me off when an SEO company says that they "created backlinks" and therefor they "did the job" , SEO is so much more these days and I honestly feel like I need to offer far more than just the basics.
Credit to @RuthBurr for that great analogy!
already used it in a post - with credit @ruthburr :)
really great
Funny, I've been using an almost identical analogy for years. There are various iterations but basically it goes like: We don't call plumbers water conveyance engineers just because the good ones wish to distance themselves, read reinvent, from the bad. And even if they did, that doesn't actually change a plumbers task, nor does it prevent a bad plumber from slapping the water conveyance engineer badge on their profiles. Actions not words define what you are doing for a client.
Came for the beard & hair, stayed for the SEO.
This WBF will go down in the books as one through whihc the "NEW SEO PROCESS" has arrived.
"Howdy MOZ fans" you're witnessing the BIRTH OF THE DEFINITIVE
Its. Just. That. Good.
I predict these data points & strategy to be in a downloadable guide will be on every SEO and every business grower's reading list. Thanks for yet another home run - Rand and I'll say, or sing if I could to the Beatles "Getting Better"
"I have to admit Moz is getting better, getting better all the time."
Hi Rand,
this topic is very dear to me, especially because it is something I tried to refine more and more while acquiring experience along the years.
More over, as an independent consultant, this issue is even more truer and hard to solve, because - let's be honest - it's easier for agencies, which have resources in-agency, to roughly estimate both timings and costs, hence are able to present a strategy that deals better with expectations from the first moment, and that's also because agencies are expected and "justified" by clients for asking very high payment installments, but not so independent consultants as I can be.
For this reason, since a little more than a year or so, I started proposing a two phase collaboration to my clients (each one with a different payment's method), which is based on the premise of transparency
In other words, when I'm asked about a quote and goals' perspective I clearly state that I cannot tell nothing for the simple reason I don't know the site, the business objectives, how competitive is the client's niche and what has been done in marketing (on-off) before contacting me.
The first phase is the audit, and it is the real foundation for a future on-going collaboration. To be clear, I conceive the audit, more as digital marketing audit than a classic SEO one (apart cases like when I'm approached by penalized web sites).
Interesting, and somehow comforting, was seeing how the analysis included in the audit tend to be the ones you listed in the WBF.
But audit are foundational also for others reasons:
The result is a document that not only individuates, explains and offers several solutions to the issues the client's web marketing (not just the site) suffers, but also:
As you can see it's not a simple "audit", but more a complex marketing plan.
The second phase is the implementation of that plan.
Personally I saw that, if well explained, this two phases process is understood and accepted by the CMOs. It's not always so, though, when are in-house SEOs or "Web Marketing Chiefs" the ones contacting me. Why? Because many of them still think SEO is just Keyword Research and fixing code, which is quite sad indeed.
Good to hear from another independent. I work much the same way. The audit is assessing the current situation wrt website, process and tools, while at the same time setting clear and attainable goals, a strategy, budget and plan, and clear roles and responsibilities. It's far from perfect, but much much easier to manage to.
Thanks for helping to validate my process!
It's so frustrating for clients to hear, but it's the truth. We cannot give any definitive timeline for results. Doing so is a set up for failure.
Exactly, anyone who offers guaranteed rankings is either a.) lying or b.) Going to do something shady and probably temporary!
The plumber/seo quote is so spot on and something that drives me mad when talking to potential clients or anyone really when you say you do SEO. I wrote an article a while back on why seo gets a bad name. Did a part 2 of that as well and it all revolves around the spam and BS people get. Emails, forums, old SEO companies that someone may have hired and then their site got penalised so now everyone doing SEO is a spammer and/or the devil.
Also another part of me wants to say its because the industry is so young and there is not a lot tangible about it. You sell forks, you send a customer a fork, they now have a fork, happy days. You provide SEO services...... There is no direct second step, some companies might go with the audit, some on page, some link building,whatever it is, there is no secondary generic step, its a good thing in a way, but it makes it difficult to talk to non-seos about results other than rankings/traffic/sales.
Client also frustrated with the expectation, promises once the Business development team done when they tried to pitch the project. After six month the pressure on the SEO guy to complete that promises, traffic, and ranking in the auditing time.
Great WF Rand. Is important to point too that exists the 'old Client' that says "I want to be the 1st in the rank... now!!" :-). And we become a teacher showing to the 'old Client' how SEO works now... and the 'old Client' says bye. What would you do in this case when the old client is going out the door?
Thanks Rand!
I agree with you, and it is also very difficult to convince those client who has done the SEO with other company and dont get result. many of theme also tell that we will only pay once you bring ranking.
If they want to be #1 now, they should be thinking PPC. I let our clients know upfront that SEO is a long play and they should not do the project unless they are making a long term commitment.
Rand, great Whiteboard Friday! Just had a few thoughts based on my experience.
The most-important thing when managing expectations is to set the correct strategic goals at the beginning. I once spoke with, let's say, a car-rental business that was obsessed with "ranking first in Google." I asked them to forget about Google for a second and simply state their business goals. "Well, to rent more cars!"
"What if I presented you with a proposal that would maximize your website's contribution to the number of rentals while also increasingly your rankings safely and naturally over time?"
"We'll take it!"
Now, that process for the car-rental place may consist of (for example) UX recommendations, website hierarchy and infrastructure, changing the copy on sales pages, improving landing pages, and so on.
Here's how I used this idea for the car-rental place.
The website was converting traffic into rentals at an extremely-low rate. Let's say only 2% of visitors made a rental. At the beginning of our conversation, the owner was obsessed with getting to number one in Google. "That would be a waste at this point because almost all of the traffic you're getting already is not converting into customers. What if we can get 10% of the visitors to make a rental -- that would get you a lot more money immediately, right?"
"Of course!"
"So, let's fix the immediately problems now, and then we'll go from there."
I use this three-step process:
1. Identify your business and marketing goals -- more app downloads, more B2B leads, more B2C sales, and so on
2. Create an integrated marketing strategy that maps to those goals -- SEO, public relations, social media, content marketing, PPC, and more might (or might not) be needed parts
3. Plan and execute each part of the strategy -- and then review the results and adjust accordingly
It's not about traffic. It's not about rankings. It's not about links. It's all about doing whatever is need to reach your (or your clients') business goals. Communicate that correctly, and you'll manage expectations naturally!
Great post Rand, man your hair is getting wilder by the week haha!
This topic is close to my heart as I have worked in both agency, freelance and now in-house. Expectation setting is so important, I have seen quite a few bust-ups in my time when someone has over promised and the poor old SEO guy has struggled to meet expectations, especially now the SEO playing field is a moving playing field with Googles playful algorithms and the mobile becoming sooo important!
I really love the timeline of expectations idea, I will be using that. The other thing I think we have at our disposal is data, if we can show our progress in a more visual way I think this can help us a lot.
Yeah - I think you can combine those. For every point along the timeline, there's data to back up the changes that have happened, and positive metrics to come out of those (whether those are page load speeds, engagement improvements, lowering of abandonment rates, increased sharing/amplification, growth in customer loyalty, etc).
I like the Digital Marketing Ladder of Awesomeness that Avinash Kaushik talks about here for some of this also. https://www.kaushik.net/avinash/digital-marketing-a...
Hey Rand. Really enjoyed this whiteboard Friday. I think even as a small business owner/one man band, you need to manage your own expectations. It's hard work :)
Well done, Rand.
Setting a realistic timeline with the client was my big take-away. This will help avoid the "what have you done for me lately"?
Great Post
We have taken this approach for the last few years and essentially this extra care and attention to the "real SEO" make us feel better because our client fell better....Win-Win. It is undoubtedly the way to go. The only downside we have seen is that the smaller budgets or in other words smaller companies cant seem to keep up. Is the new world SEO moving outwith the reach of the smaller players in the market?
Rand,
Great post, it's nice to hear more about "modern SEO" in comparison to "old school SEO". As a younger professional who has only been doing SEO for a few years, I think I've benefited by getting into the game later. Something that strikes me is that the modern SEO consultant really needs to have an understanding for the entire marketing process, rather than just individual pieces like keyword ranking and link building. I love how you've listed out the whole picture here, taking into account things like branding, content, PR, etc.
At my agency, we've found this newer approach to be more successful than honing in on individual tactics and using that to drive results. It is definitely a marathon, not a sprint...although many of our clients are still in the mindset that good SEO means good rankings - and that's all.
The modern SEO process makes proving SEO value a bit harder, but I love the idea of a timeline for setting expectations - I'll be sharing that with my team!
Thanks for the post!
One of your best WBFs in a long while, Rand! The timeline is a great approach for setting expectations. I've done something similar in my proposals when I know I'll have to wait for a developer or webmaster to get around to making changes, but I think it warrants being used for more than just protecting myself.
About a year ago, I started telling new prospects that the first step was a site audit. Only after I know their site inside out, their goals, issues and challenges, their competition, could I tell them what was needed, how long it would take and how much it would cost. But a formal timeline would have been a great part of the cost proposal after the audit was completed.
Uh... about your hair.... oh, never mind. ;)
Only just managed to catch up here so excuse being late to the party, all understood and agreed in the process and for myself its really not a case of giving up on plumbing or seo :) its finding a good plumber/SEO. I have ended up in court this year for the first time in my life (not a pleasant experience) because the process you speak about can be easily used to caress the ego of any SEO by telling them its not you its the customer who has a lack of understanding and has given up. I have been to all extremes from lo cost (epic fail) to expensive award winning agency's that get away with huge marketing bills and fabricate/spin results to justify the 4/5 figure bills. I am very a patient website owner who just wants a good SEO :) maybe its already happened but Whiteboard Friday on how to find a good SEO ?
thanks
Paul.
Great WBF!
I wish I could have taken client's expectations more seriously when I started. Two years ago I was working for a client whose only valid KPI was the position for high competitive keywords in SERP. The expectations were set from the beginning to focus only on those keywords’ rankings. I even created a “ranking goal” for each keyword. Despite my rockiness I managed to get some good results, but as the time went by I realised that we had reached a point in which we could not see any improvements. Periodically he used to pulled me into the boardroom to ask me over and over the same question: “Why are we not ranking for this keyword?”. It was a nightmare and sometimes I even considered to join the dark side of the force (Black hat SEO).
How I managed to reset my client’s expectation? It was not easy. It took me a year to educate my client on the new set of expectations. The key for me was to create a strategy based on the “context” around each campaign and planned on temporarily use PPC to ensure some level of traffic for those really competitive keywords. It helped me a lot setting different scenarios (Pessimistic, Expected, Optimistic) around website traffic metrics. So the focus was more on costs, conversion and engagement rather than Keyword position on the SERP.
Interesting post Rand.
It's hard to believe but it's a brutal truth of our SEO lives that we come across such reluctant clients on regular basis who don't want to go by your words when it comes to modern SEO.
I had a client few months back whom I suggested to give a make over to his website to improve the user experience, but he refused to do so by quoting - 'I am paying you for SEO to bring me rankings and traffic, website design should not be your concern at all. We know how Google rank pages.' I brought his website's bounce rate to his notice that it's above 80%, you got the information for the audience but it's not presented well. Again, he refused to move a bit by quoting - 'This is why we hired you people, bring it down.' Damn, hope we were magicians.
Unfortunately, that relationship didn't last for long. But I truly wanted to show him how a better web design providing great user experience can help in traffic and rankings. Is there any such case study available online that anyone can share?
Thanks
I think a big part of this for SEOs in the future will be saying "no" to engagements like those until & unless clients (or managers/teams/execs) understand what's involved in modern SEO and are willing to invest in the necessary tools, people, and changes. I suppose those that don't will just continue to be frustrated.
Hi Rand
I would love to show this post all of my clients who actually shout after 1 month that they are not ranking on page one and we are not doing best.
We are still working more on organic seo and getting very good result after 4 to 6 months and the best value we are getting after a link audit.
Sometime it is very difficult to say to the clients that how much time will it take to get rank on page one???
Totally understand, but this tactic isn't about saying "it will take 3 months or 6 months to rank," but rather saying "I cannot tell you how long it will take to rank, and I cannot promise any rankings until we complete all these steps. Once each step is completed successfully, we will have the opportunity to proceed to the next one, and once they're all completed, we'll know the impact on SEO." Some folks won't be willing to make those kinds of investments, but those who do will have remarkable results compared to their hasty peers.
It is clearly stated in Google Webmaster Policy. If someone gives you guarantee of ranking in very less time, then either they are telling false and manipulate client or they do not know about SEO. If We want long term contract with clients. let them know about overall SEO Strategy of their sites. They will have to understand this.
In some cases, people take projects in their hand and do Black Hat. This is not a long term strategy, like people are selling you something by manipulating. Modern SEO has many things to do.
hello dear Sumit the thing here we can do is we can follow each and every guidelines of our SEO in the estimated period of time and i think 80% we are able to get our 10 % keywords in rank but o its a very difficult task to make a client understand of our things what we are doing and how much time it will take as he or she in not being known of SEO.
The last 2 minutes of this video really struck a chord. Setting realistic expectations while still closing the deal is a hell of an art-form. I absolutely love the idea of illustrating that each step is contingent on the previous. Very simple but gets the client to appreciate the significance of each phase in itself, rather than fixating from day 1 over the outcome (rankings), which typically results in a rushed campaign with the focus on short term link tactics rather than long term brand strategy. This, or a slight variation of it, might just be the answer I've been searching for.
Very timely. Thanks Rand.
Spot on Rand! Just watched this instead of some Netflix :)
I tweeted the other day about losing clients and having them re-sign after a period of "going elsewhere."
While many SEO's will say "they finally realized" and came back, I look inward and try to find out how we could have avoided that altogether.
I look at the sales funnel, the sales process, and the low end of the funnel i.e. orientation period.
How can I improve the communication process from the front end of the sales funnel so that clients can get excited about results but maintain realistic expectations?
I'm also a big fan of not trash talking SEO clients. Our clients are the reason I have a roof over my head and food in my refrigerator (not to mention vacations, cars, and mustache accessories) I see a lot of people doing this on Twitter and other social channels - it is such a bad look! If you gotta vent, vent to some of your buddies at the bar.
Nice post that encourages SMEs, corporates and business owners to continue to invest in SEO. However, the whiteboard image is really smoke and mirrors. What this post does to me as a potential business owner (rather than a seasoned SEO veteran who has worked in etail companies and produced £million's of SEO revenue and lead generation amongst business service companies) is simply make excuses for poor campaign performances and to limit liability to a business owner's entire marketing strategy and budget. Let's not forget what all SEOers are here to do, it is to pull rank on popular keyword phrases and deliver ROI, not some brand do gooders and a general marketing assistant that dabbles in a bit of marketing fluff.
Too bad I could not watch the whole video. I have read the transcript. No complaints. It's complete.I think that the expectations of a customer remains the same in terms SEO. They always want to have everything and very fast.Returning your explanations, it surely dampen their ardor.
It all starts at the beginning of a relationship with the client. Setting too high of expectations is an easy way to shoot yourself in the foot. This is a really helpful piece to send to clients at the beginning of any campaign.
Thanks!
Love this episode. Rand, you did a great job on this episode simply because this is what I have been waiting for you to talk about. I am tired of hearing the Unrealistic Expectations by a lot of SEOs and this is the perfect episode to get out there for them to understand that modern SEO is totally different compared to the SEO before.
Thanks Rand!
Nice Article Rand
Rand,
great WBF again. Great insights about the modern and classic SEO. The problem you are describing I know all to well. Clients getting stuck with focus on the old in stead of the new. The timeline you suggest is great. I will definitely start using that one. Hopefully they will then see what steps are to be made and hopefully can follow in the same direction in stead of being an anchor at the "old ways".
Again great Video, printed it and added it to my collection of GREAT WBF's.
regards
Jarno
p.s. Love to see your insights on my response to Tony Dimmock at the top of this page.
For the Italian audience, this article has been translated here:
https://www.ideawebitalia.it/seo/6708/
Rand, this is the ultimate reality, we as digital marketers or seoers are living in. We need to be more passive at our approach and should never make false commitments to the clients. SEO is obviously an extended process to start with a website, but also a clean up process too. Some things need to add up and some need to be subtracted if something bad had been done to the website. SEO is no more a simple process, its more of research, analysis, recommendations, improvements, running parallel to social media, branding, SEM etc to give the altogether benefit to the website.
Observing the current google guidelines and a careful good technique is that will gradually adds credibility to the websites and promotes good seo.
so many clients often say: I know that it would take a while. I know that it will need time.
But what is a a while or time? 3 Month, 6 Month, a year?
It is pretty hard to say what is really possible in 3, 6 or 12 month. Talk a lot to the clients, helps a lot. Tell them what you do and what your goals are in the next few month. After that analyse it with them and search some new goals for the next month. Never stop to communicate with them... Thats what I see.
@Tony Dimmock When something is impossible, it is easy to say no - but what if you like to say "maybe" ?
I think it is pretty hard to get a good timeline.
I usually do it in that way, milestones, some goals we want to reach in time, but it is pretty hard to find the time you will need. Thats worth a WBF by itsselfe. How to create a realistic SEO Timeline
Concur with your viewpoint. After all said done how can one win the projects… in increasing expectation world customer are more keen to know (read as wants in writing) what will be accomplished by the SEO team. Customers wants/loves result.
Excellent advice, Rand. You are the man! A great followup post, perhaps on the blog, would be some case studies of real-life "expectation timelines" that offer insight about how unexpected hiccups were handled, etc. Might be a good topic for a roundup post from leading SEO experts. Just a thought.
Great post! SEO no doubt has changed from a monotonous tactic to more of a complete package. Modern SEO is about branding and enhancing organic exposure by creating user friendly and engaging content
Great article Rand!
I have a question to you regarding current SEO tactics.
Please tell me what is better for SEO, and WHY
1. One page post with at least 500 words, but high (70-80%) bounce rate
2. Post with 5 pages (Same start URL, but end has /2 /3 /4 /5), 100 words each, and bounce rate of 10-15%?
Thanks a lot for your reply.
Love how this dovetailed into the "SEO Slog" Whiteboard Friday from a couple months' ago. This is possibly the best WBF for SEOs yet presented. Well done Rand.
This WBF reminds me of Bill Sebald's "How to Select the Perfect Clients" from a couple weeks back. But it creates the same disconnect for me. In an agency setting, how often are the people "setting expectations" or "selecting clients" the same ones who work on the campaign?
When I did my own thing, this would've been *exactly* the right post for me - and I'm sure it is for many people. Sales mostly want to sell what customers understand, though. The 'broken process' you mention? That's how people understand SEO. I'm glad for WBFs like this so we can point people at it and continue the education process.
Due to some technical difficulties I was unable to open the video which is mentioned in this post. So, I reviewed the image at https://i.imgur.com/LyyT7SJ.jpg which seems to be very scary.
But when I started reading the content, things began tot brighten up. What Rand was actually trying to communicate, I found after reading 13 paragraphs.
He described different methods of SEO in every paragraph and in the end he stated that none of these are correct as per latest SEO standards.
Basically he suggested that instead of promising things in the air, we should present expected time-lines along with which we should provide suggestions and all the necessary steps that we need to take in order to improve their site rankings/traffic/conversions. In this way, we can show them our on-going process on specific period of the time as we have decided upon and it looks more promising to the client instead of false expectations.
For example, we create an SEO plan on which we mention the initiations with respective dates through which we can present our progresses to our clients. For instead, if we promise to deliver 3 off page and 5 on page contents to the client, we can always show them the pieces that we have provided and how they are doing as per ratings and quality/view wise.
So for me this was an engaging read :)
It's funny how this Whiteboard Friday hit the nail right on the head for me. SEO has changed so much over the last few years, let alone just the last year and clients have a hard time understanding what SEO is and how it will help their business. I would say that EVERY client we have worked with is extremely results driven, which is ok, but then this is exactly where EXPECTATIONS comes in.
I admittedly have been bad at setting this client expectation and lost clients due to it.
Great read and definitely going to embed this up on my blog and ask clients to actually watch it before engaging in business with them.
Thanks Rand, this one hit home.
I agree with this 100% and honestly I'm lucky if I have the business background in manufacturing I use that to come up with ideas that will help my clients bottom line. I agree that searches is about getting found however SEO 2.0 (please forgive me for using 2.0) however it's not the same thing as what it used to be it is a truly long term time-consuming sometimes extremely frustrating sometimes awesome experience.
If the client believes that you are going to change their world in a short period of time and you have unfortunately told them that. That's where the difference between plumbers and SEO’s is most plumbers do not have to deal with nearly as much change in their industry has an SEO nor do they deal with primarily one overlord (Google) they actually have different companies that make parts that do the same thing to choose from. A plumber understand something that has not made huge strides forward in decades if not more where we have to deal with huge strides forward in months if not more frequently. Like you said it's world we live in.
So it is wise to let your clients understand what's going on and that will lead to much better relationships because let's be honest if anybody sets any false expectations and in most any industry they're going to have to very least get a lot of trouble if not fired.
Thanks Rand.
Almost all the SEOs understand these things but they don't understand the importance of timeline. And on top of that a few clients would also be very reluctant to listen anything, they just ask for the time, not time-line, in-fact they're not even ready to listen.
They simply say that you're the expert, I don't understand these things, and I won't make changes to the website as well, I've already invested so much in this, now I don't want to invest in website further.
People can certainly listen to you (as you're an authority), but they don't listen to their SEO team or agency.
Good Morning,
an article that explains very well how to interact with the customer and procedures of SEO simply. Thank Rand so much for this year-end gift!
Thanks rand , your posts helps me a lot... I love your hand gesture when you are explaining.
First, I must say that I'm not an SEO expert or consultant. I can say that I've worked with probably 8-10 SEO "experts" who supposedly know more than the guy right below him on a google search for "SEO Agencies". The most important suggestion I can offer to a company new to internet marketing is do not be ignorant. If you have a business that's sells a product or service that's very general in nature (ones involving broad keywords) don't dare to think that you'll end up directly below Overstock.com...just not going to happen. You're better off selling directly through Amazon or Ebay. An SEO agency, no matter how good they are can take a small business and rocket them to the top. However, if your company specializes in a niche industry and can package their mission statement into a dozen or keyphrases that are not extremely broad or competitive, a good SEO team can really help.
I'm thinking of starting a seo company. Maybe I will work with a first-results-then-pay system.
Works great for the customer, and the SEO shouldn't be that worried as he knows his stuff.
If they won't pay when the results are there, I will threaten with some negative seo, a huge link farm :D (joke ofc)
The challenge there is how do you measure results, and how to make sure that your effort is being counted. If you do a great job on local SEO and get people finding the client's company and walking in the door, do you get credit? Just one of many examples.
Great post, Rand Fishkin. I think agencies often do not have the right approach to selling SEO service (and making promises) that ultimately leads to disappointment on a client's side. There is a big gap between the knowledge of an agency and a client, and it's important to explain properly how the results can be achieved step by step. And that a client input is required too, in terms of quickly implementing SEO recommendations and so on.
Good!
Article very nice.
The problem is communicate to client the correct expectation. If beginning we create unrealistic expectations we have already lose!
This is excellent. Thank you from an SEO newbie!
Interesting post!
Hi,
Great Post Rand, i just wanted to ask a very complicated question, that i have researched a lot and have not been able to find any solid answer.
the question is: how to do SEO for a social media site? and how to set any kind of expectations for the same?
Hi there,
I believe that you might need to be more specific. May I ask what is the Social Media site about (Niche)?
Its a pic sharing site, kinda similar to flikr or say pinterest.
Hi Rand,
My agency ran into the problem of setting unrealistic SEO expectation with our clients. We were 100% to blame for not clearly explaining that SEO will not happen in days or weeks, when it's more like months and years. So, a while back I create The Slope of SEO Graph. We show it to clients before and during the sale to help set expectations. It's really helped a lot. Plus a ton of SEOs have reached out to me and tell me they now use the graph in sales meetings.
(I promise these links are not spam :)
https://awesomescreenshot.com/06742gqhdc (Screenshot of graph)
https://mysiteauditor.com/blog/the-graph-every-seo-... (The article I posted about it)
What are your thoughts?
The value propositions, that is to say, the sales propositions, need to be aligned with what is likely to happen. Selling SEO is as fragile an art as is the actual work of SEO. The sales reps, if your company has them, has the job of ensuring the right buyer is being on-boarded. I see buyers purchase SEO all the time who think of it as riddle and rhyme. It's friggin' witchcraft to them and the SEO lives smack-dab in the middle of Salem. The seller needs to pass up the low hanging fruit, however tempting and/or easy it might be to close them. Happiness, Don Draper once said, is merely a temporary feeling between moments of other feelings of happiness. In other words, happiness of the kind you really want -- the kind that sticks around a while -- is that which is derived from a buyer who wants to understand the nuanced complexities of SEO. How does this buyer operate in all areas of his/her marketing life? Are they doubters in other areas? Are they happily uninformed? I am not lazy, so I am happy to educate even the lesser informed buyer. After all, what I don't know you could carpet Rhode Island with. But even with them, the least informed consumer at the table, they at least qualify for SEO not because of what they don't know, but because of what they're eager to know. SEO buyers must be culturally similar to you, the SEO purveyor. They must be philosophically aligned and willing to be shown the value propositions and learn what can be achieved with SEO. Time is precious. Spend it on an SEO-ready buyer. Great job, Rand. A pleasure to watch/read.
Great WF Rand,
Maybe someone needs to come up with a new term rather than "modern SEO" :-)
Yeah...as others have noted, I too like the hair! Found the whiteboard post today ESPECIALLY spot-on Rand....and would add only that it was my dad who taught me that "good things cost money - crap is cheap!" :-)
Thanks Rand,
I really liked the plummer example. It's great.. Now I am trying to translate this in to Turkish so I can use this example lol..
Hi Rand
I totally agree with you on this one, we have not only been doing SEO but we have concentrated on fixing page/crawl and duplicate content errors (with the help of your tools) we have also concentrated on mobile usability, we have invested in taking the time over the last year to implement structured mark-up and lately we have been working extensively on increasing page speed, optimising our images, delivering our css, combining our css into less files, unblocking and delivering our javascript correctly, interacting more on social media and of course a nice user experience. So yeah it's not just about the old "do your title tags, meta descriptions and alt tags, build a few links" and hope to be seen
Alan
Great post, Rand. Not managing expectations properly can result in a lot of stress for both SEOs and clients. I really like your timeline idea, setting out realistic and understandable targets from the outset. I'll certainly be incorporating something like that into my future pitches.
Cheers.
I can't believe how long it takes these days to get a site moving, sometimes it's still really quick but most of the time it's a slog which present huge barriers to entry for many smaller businesses who have been brought up in an age where fortunes can be made quickly on the internet.
Great post Rand! As I was watching your video, it definitely brought back a lot of memories when my team and I started Local SEO for small and midsize businesses three years ago. Man, It was crazy. Back then, I was very bad in setting client's expectation and this caused a lot of havoc for my team and and I - it was horrible.
Rand, I totally agree with you - to boost rankings and generate leads in today's SEO environment, the SEO consultant has to wear many many hats because, there are so many factors that impact Modern SEO...putting all of these factors (Website Architecture, Links, social signals, PR + Branding, Online Directors, Content and many more ..) in place takes time and lot of effort...
SEO is long term investment that will pay off big for clients who are patient enough to wait for compound interest to kick-in but if you forget to set the expectation in the beginning (before you sign the big contract), you have already failed.
Thanks
Alex
Thanks for this WBF Rand. Setting expectations is VITAL but so is ensuring clients know all the pieces of their business that SEO's will need to touch to make it successful.
The other piece, from the agency side, is making sure your sales people know how to sell this service. Education makes this process a much smoother journey.
Great WBF Rand, I'll be sending this video out to educate some potential new clients. Thank you.
Article Sounds good...
The Old SEO School is about the bunch of Backlinks called Quantity SEO's, Now things are change by Modern SEO it is about quality backlinks, if you have poor or low quality backlinks, they can negatively affect your ranking. A Perfect strategy is based on latest Google updates which will implement in a good way will rank higher in any search engine's mind.
Awesome WBF Rand. The consensus between the client and the agency is an important part of laying a path for SEO efforts. Sometimes these over-projections or over-expectations may lead to certain decisions which are not going to be favorable for any SEO professional. Although SEO has changed a lot from what it used to be but taming the client thoughts for the same is quiet tough part. The clients who have been with you for longer period assume that it's pretty easy to build links and scale on to page one, but eliminating the communication gap with discussions on SEO developments could help a bit in this. The path is never gonna be smooth and is never is for any work worth doing.
Hey Rand, for starters, I really like your hairdo in this video. I mean couldn't help but keep look at your new hairdo throughout this video, especially because your old hairstyle (in your profile pic) juxtaposes so nicely to your new hairstyle in this video. I'm not sure if everybody is actually noticing it, but I sure do. SEO has improved for the better; so has your hairstyle. Maybe, we need to talk about that on Twitter later.
Coming back to SEO, this is a great episode I've been asked about the PageRank thingy by my client in the last two years. So I was relieved when Google finally made an official statement that they were not going to update their PageRank any time soon. Now I can confidently share the news with my clients and put the whole speculation to rest for good.
It's indeed important to set the expectations right whether you're signing a new contract or in the middle of an existing one. There's no harm in being honest with your clients and keep updating them with the evolving SEO dynamics.
Josh, in his last WBF shares his research (Panda Do's and Dont's) which was pretty ground-breaking - something I wouldn't hesitate to share with my client. As an SEO, we must put honesty above everything else. If anyone is keen on reading the post by Josh, it's here.
I've had this hair for a few months now :-) But thanks!
BTW - did you see Bill Slawski's suggestions around what Google may be doing in place of PageRank these days? Pretty fascinating stuff: https://www.seobythesea.com/2014/12/replacement-pa...
Thanks, Rand! Let me go over that one now. Cheers,
Great WBF! I concur with how expectations are wrong in most cases. I believe that it is mainly due to the lack of knowledge in online marketing.
Setting the bar realisticly is also a great way to ensure that both sides of the table are positive and pleased with SEO.
You really inspired me with the idea of a timeline! :)
Great method to organize the steps and parts of a project.
I'd highlight one point: Conversion Rate. So many sites don't have a call to action or an offer, and if they do there is no way to measure the conversion rate. Trackable phone numbers, a call to action and goals in Analytics are really helpful. I have a client that pays me for SEO and another agency for PPC and their landing page is horrible so their conversion rate is really low.
A/B testing or helping the client create a compelling offer or message is an important part of client retention for my business.
Many clients has totally move to PPC, and even they don't care about Organic Ranking as well, because they believe that for getting business PPC gives quick result, and product listing on amazon, ebay and other platform is great. Why client would wait for 3 to 4 month time to get ranking and get good orders, as they get it quickly by spending the almost same amount of money on PPC.
SEO takes time but the organic traffic generated by the SEO IS real and it will reflects your brand and company to....
yeh i agree,, i have seen the out come of SEO on my site of Quote Facebook Timeline Cover Photos [link removed],, and had up to 100 unique visitors per day and about 50+ organic traffic,,
Many of our clients also prefer PPC. But there is definitely a place for SEO because of the long term results. With PPC only your 'online presence' disappears as soon as the ads are paused.
Many of those clients neither do PPC well..
Great WBF Rand, touched on one of my bug bears.
There's that phrase "integrated marketing" that's actually been slung around by agencies for years and having worked as an SEO within IPG and WPP for two supposedly big agencies my experience is the larger agencies are actually less integrated than the smaller ones.
Often the departments within are actually set up in direct competition - getting what I call "congruence" out of other departments like PR, Branding is like getting blood from a stone. Management attitude on the SEO side is no different - in one job they couldn't care a less about social, the aim is to make the client pay more if they want social - despite the fancy presentations saying to the clients that social is now an important facet of SEO which I've always thought to the client must be a nonsense because if that's the case why do we not include it as part of the package?
In the other role when I'm not only the senior SEO but the only SEO I'm told I can't use a host of creatives because no-one sees what benefit that brings to SEO - if I want to go build links then there are plenty of directories, article and pr sites to choose from! Sometimes it's like being in the playground at school.
The other major problem as I see it is having worked on some bigger campaigns, the bigger brands tend to have multiple specialist agencies and the problem there is that marketing agencies don't play nicely together - although actually as proven by today's WBF it's all in there benefit to do so - better results and everyone wins!
The biggest problem for me is the wider 'digital' world itself and the fact that the bigger it gets the more incompetent it is!
Thank you Rand! Please teach more customers / SEO people this because the average website owner / business does not get this at all. It is a long term service that can take years to achieve significant results.
As a long time DIY SEO practitioner, I know it takes months and years to get great results and then you are still never done. Thankfully, we have been pretty successful with the help of Moz and others who share online. Thanks, Rand.
We are constantly approached by SEOs who make ridiculous promises. My favourite way of getting rid of them is to enquire as to why they are not listed on the first page for SEO keywords. After all, if you can't get your own web site to rank, why should a client believe you can do it for them? If, on the other hand, you do rank, you should point this out to potential clients, as what could be a more competitive search space than SEO?
One of the things missing from this WBF is reference to the importance of CRO in all of this. You can get all the traffic in the world but if you can't convert, the ROI just won't be there. In the end, clients will be more impressed with increases in business gained than with abstract SEO statistics. CRO also produces faster results, which will no doubt impress the client. A good SEO should include CRO as part of the offered package.
Finally, love the Hunger Games hair style and beard. Very on trend!
You still need to do "Old School" SEO. It's just not enough on it's own anymore. It's a small part of something bigger.
Maybe the old way was more about manipulating things so that your site appeared to be relevant. Now it seems the focus has shifted to concentrating on genuinely being relevant. Genuinely adding value.
So instead of saying "Hey, how can we make Google think our site (and business) is amazing", We now need to think about how we make our site (and business) amazing.
I think that's a great thing.
Excellent article, this really changes the "way" to approach clients.
all the posts from moz are always appreciated
Great post Rand...no joke would be good to show this video to a client before taking on an SEO project.
This video was great. Being new to the sales part of SEO this is a great way to set expectations. I hated it when sales people set false expectations which ultimately lead to lose of clients. Now that I am a solo contractor selling and doing SEO myself together with realistic expectations and a timeline will prevent future headaches.
Thank you Rand.
GREAT WBF - a couple of points though:
1. Terminology
The term 'SEO' isn't really helpful any more, to explain what it is we need to do in modern (digital) marketing. It not only sets the wrong expectations (as you demonstrate eloquently), but importantly, many SME / smaller clients don't even know what SEO means in the first place.
Case in point: My students created an excellent digital marketing audit as part of their coursework, and when discussing its result with their client (an SME in the tourism industry), the client referred to as 'this SOE [sic] thing in the report'. In contrast, 'social media' is a term that everyone is familiar with and many SMEs still don't understand that their WEBSITE should be their main focus of digital marketing (rather than their Facebook page, for example).
I feel that the term 'digital marketing' in that case is more appropriate (or 'inbound marketing', but many clients wouldn't understand that either).
2. Communication skills
This is implied in your WBF Rand (and of course you're great at it ;) ) , but to me it's extra important to know how to communicate with the client and figure out what their needs are, at all levels. Not just setting expectations / timeline, but explain it in a language that they'll understand. Chances are many don't understand SEO / digital marketing (assume they don't! no one does!) then take it one step back, to basics.
E.g.tell them "The primary objective of your website is to attract visitors and convert them into customers." and get their agreement on that assumption. And then show them how you'll help them towards that objective (bearing in mind all caveats, i.e. following your process!). When onboarding a new client, definitely start with a full comprehensive audit.
Overall, I do wonder about the terminology. Perhaps we should go back to website marketing :)
I still hear it from clients that they want to be number 1 for certain high search volume, head term keywords. It doesn't matter that content marketing and long tail search traffic is driving more and more non-branded search visits and even conversions are increasing year-on-year. No, they want to be #1.
It gets worse when only a fraction of the on-site recommendations get implemented and the they ignore what you say about improving the conversion funnel.
If it's your own client, it's probably a good idea to say goodbye, but if it's your agency's client then there's not much a consultant can do apart from continuously educating the client. Hopefully they will listen. Sooner or later...
Rand, this was a great Whiteboard Friday topic. As in internal SEO/Content Marketer/Web Guy, this was an excellent reminder. We joke that everyone in our organization wants a "side of SEO" with their projects. It's become a buzzword without meaning for so many people. Establishing a timeline and explaining the process is the best way to set realistic expectations and outcomes. We say that we do everything with SEO in mind. And UX. And style. And good spelling. Thanks for this info. Jeremy
It's a cultural thing to be always wanting to be on top.
"When your plumber fails to fix your pipes, you don't assume that plumbing is a dead industry that no one should ever invest in. But when your SEO fails to get you rankings or traffic that you can measure, you assume all SEO is dead and all SEO is bad." - BEST ANALOGY EVER! And a great reason why so many people are struggling to figure out where organic search should "fit" in their marketing strategy. Fantastic article...
Great WBF. Well we SEO guys can talk a lot about realistic expectations and stuff like it but reality is Customers still want it like it.
"Rank our 5 keywords in 6 months. The rate for these 5 keywords is $500. Oh God Come on this is not even one employee salary".
Really Thanks to Mr Rand for making people aware of modern world SEO. Its the hardest part at this point for many small business customers to understand it. Trust me the more these folks understand about SEO the more as SEO professionals our life will be easy. More Ethical SEO at reasonable price and SEO guys will divert from Black Hat and grey hat also.
Long road ahead for all of us as SEO professional to make people aware of it but its never late to start.
Well done Rand. Although it's really hard to take you seriously with that hairdo and especially the mustache, this is one of the best Whiteboard Fridays I've seen. SEO is effective and worthwhile, you just have to know exactly what SEO is. People's definition and idea of SEO has become convoluted over the years as the methods and practices have changed so many do it wrong.
The thing is, SEO has changed to something that the traditional seo guy can't undertake by him self.. If UX is part of SEO then you need that expertise to fix it.. If conversion suck then the seo must monitor and fix it.. If design sucks it affects seo.. If developers build a slow website, the seo must find a way to fix it or tell them (who they no nothing) to fix it..
So an SEO is a person or group of people who know a little bit of everything..
Yes,this blog is very essential to the SEO Category because we can't ignore this kind of information which is useful in SEO .
Awesome White Board Friday, I always says that SEO is no longer a one person work, It require team work. A SEO have to deal with Development team, Designing team, Content Team, Managers and Clients goals etc. There are so many things involved with SEO itself. So one should be careful in setting up expectations and targets with clients if they want to have long term relationship with clients.
This is a nice theory however not very realistic. SEO is an investment yes but an investor of anything needs to have some kind of idea of when/how to get their money back.
Pulling from your plumbing analogy, a plumber can't go up to someone about to sell their house and say "let me put in a whole new bathroom for you to increase the value of your house for when you go to sell in a few months. it will cost you $10k - but I have no idea when I can finish, no idea if I can stay on budget, and no idea if it will add any value to your house. Just trust me and trust the process".
Rather he has to say "I can have the bathroom done in X weeks, staying on my $10k budget, and will add $15k of value to your house because of these 10 reasons...".
yes indeed, following modern SEO and while Setting a realistic timeline with the client we can't ignore ROI factor which is basic focus of client
Thanks Rand for sharing such a nice post, I like you way of explanation. One more thing which I learned through this post is "whiteboard friday". Actually I was not aware of this term.